296 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

DocBach, on 28 July 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

ECM is suppose to block the Beagle, so an ECM shrouded unit would not be detected by Beagle behind cover or behind the arc of its standard sensors.

I would prefer beagle not detect through terrain, lest it become mandatory the same way Pre-nerf seismic was, and eliminate the clandestine action. (And if ECM was allowed on all mechs after bringing it back to reality, it would become mandatory just to block the mandatory BAP)

[DocBach]

Livewyr, on 28 July 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

I would prefer beagle not detect through terrain, lest it become mandatory the same way Pre-nerf seismic was, and eliminate the clandestine action. (And if ECM was allowed on all mechs after bringing it back to reality, it would become mandatory just to block the mandatory BAP)

however, pre-nerf seismics had a 400m range and took up no space or tonnage, Beagle would have 120, and require critical space and tonnage.

[1453 R]

Livewyr, on 28 July 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

I would prefer beagle not detect through terrain, lest it become mandatory the same way Pre-nerf seismic was, and eliminate the clandestine action. (And if ECM was allowed on all mechs after bringing it back to reality, it would become mandatory just to block the mandatory BAP)

So you want the Beagle Active probe strangled and denied its most crucial TT ability and, for man y machines, the reason it was included in their designs...but you're totes legit cool with the G-ECM being choked back to "does nothing whatsoever save block the anemic effects of anemic equipment nobody equips anyways"?

Anyways. Now that I'm not posting between calls at work...a notion.

Since people are so determined to make modules more important than BattleMech-equippable items (which makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever but okay then roll with it), then what we do is replace Seismic Sensor and Radar Dep – two of...maybe three, four if one NARC's, actually useful modules in this game, and thus obviously things that are broken beyond redemption and must be killed with fire (seriously, I don't even understand the hatred for Radar Dep) – with Active Probe Expertise and ECM Expertise, respectively.

The Beagle Active Probe would provide its current benefits, as well as a 120m, 360-degree LoS-dependent detection radius.
Active Probe Expertise, when equipped to a 'Mech that also equips a BAP, would nullify the need for LoS for the 120m enhanced detection range as well as further reducing TIG time by an additional 25%. Yes this mimics the existing TIG module. I don't care. The Beagle should be really good at this stuff, not just sorta-mildly-better at it.

The G-ECM would cut the detection range against units under its aegis by 200m, down to 600m detection (mirroring the BAP's 200m boost), would increase lock times for guided munitions by 50%, and would nullify the effects of all the stuff it's supposed to nullify the effects of.
ECM Expertise, when equipped to a unit that also equips a G-ECM unit, would cut detection range by a further 25%, down to 400m default, and cuts off target decay time a'la Radar Dep. Yes, this means ECM is AoE Radar Dep. It also means you have to have ECM to use it and also ECM no longer provides flat immunity to missiles.

In this way one has to pay critical slots and tonnage for their cool scheiss, as well as a 'Mech module slot. It's just one idea I had on the bike ride home, but it could potentially provide the basis for an even slightly more meaningful IW pillar than we've got right now. Which would be cool, since Information Warfare is to me what Commodity Warfare is to everyone else in this forum. Heh...it's just too bad that I'm the only player on the entire forum who remembers that Information Warfare is even supposed to be a thing.

Blegh.

[Ace Selin]

ECM is of little concern to me, infact these days I never actually use it. The only time I would like someone to have ECM if there is plentiful LRM boats on the other side, to stop the LRM deluge coming in.
There are many counters to ECM and I see many other game diminishing things in MWO that ECM isn't really one of them,

[Livewyr]

Ah, Beagle's through-terrain detection is 120m only? How did I miss that?

By all means!

[EDIT: And by all means, I mean give it its unadulterated 120m 360 degree through-terrain detection. I was under the impression it was like MW4's "Active Radar" where the only condition was being in range.]

Edited by Livewyr, 28 July 2014 - 06:46 PM.

[RogueLdr]

Wow, i didn't know that all the lasers, PPC, all of the AC, LBXs and SRMs needed a lock on to shoot at the enemy.

I guess i've just been lucky hitting mechs under ECM this whole time, who knew?!

Seriously though, all ECM really does is prevent someone from sitting 800m away, behind cover from killing half a team.

As far as "stealth" goes, i'm pretty sure ECM doesn't make your screen go black. Try, you know.. LOOKING.
Be aware of you're surroundings, the minimap and the doritos are tools. Use them as a tool, not a crutch.

I've killed many a mech without a targeting box around him.

[IraqiWalker]

Wolfways, on 28 July 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

You said dumb-fired LRM's are basically longer ranged SRM's. Which i guess is true other than the firing arc and ridiculously slow speed...

Ok. I get what you're saying now.

Wolfways, on 28 July 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

So they're balanced but AC's are better at destroying mechs...which is the point of weapons.
If you mean poptarting i can tell you now that an AC mech without JJ's will still destroy mechs a whole lot faster than LRM's will.

The trade off that I was trying to illustrate is that LRMs allow you to establish presence all over the battlefield, while the ACs are only going to be effective wherever you are.

Wolfways, on 28 July 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

I said there isn't really any bullet drop, not there is none. i.e. it's not something that is difficult like say...sniping in the Battlefield games...and i've used every weapon (except maybe the flamer...not sure).
Bullet drop and leading are almost nonexistent in MWO...unless you're firing at a full speed light mech at around 1500m maybe.

Almost, and none are different, I can somewhat agree with your assessment there.

mogs01gt, on 28 July 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

So your whole base for saying LRM's are "unskilled" is because they require two mechs to be effective......You dont see the issue with that argument?

If you had read my post you'd have realized that I don't believe LRMs are unskilled. I said they require little skill to USE, and need great skill to make the shine. They're extremely easy to basically use in fact, but to use right you need to really know your stuff.

Wolfways, on 28 July 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

They have?

Remember the LRMaggeddon?

[DocBach]

RogueLdr, on 28 July 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

As far as "stealth" goes, i'm pretty sure ECM doesn't make your screen go black. Try, you know.. LOOKING.
Be aware of you're surroundings, the minimap and the doritos are tools. Use them as a tool, not a crutch.

Ah, I didn't know stealth meant to make everything in sight black. I thought it had something to do with hiding something's ability to be detected by radar.

[Lykaon]

1453 R, on 28 July 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

First of all: have not read entire thread yet, am currently working on it. Saw a few things that made me alternate laugh and want to hate myself, and so decided to write post because bored. And also irritated. If this offends, skip post and enjoy remainder of day.

That said:

I like how people think that the lore-appropriate effects of the G-ECM suite – i.e. cancelling/nullifying the effects of advanced electronics such as NARC, Artemis, the Fuzzy Puppy Detector, and C3 – would matter one flatulent ferret fart in this game.

“I can spend 1.5(1)t and 2(1) crit slots to…not be affected by a thing that: 1.) nobody carries, 2.) nobody bothers with, 3.) people only equip because they need it to deal with as-exists ECM and which nobody would take if ECM was reverted to lore, and 4.) doesn’t exist yet? AWESOME! That’s such a fantastic ability! It’s almost half as good as the extra DHS I could shove in there instead! Let me go find space for this thing right now!”

Lemme ask you this, folks – how many of you currently equip Active Probes on non-Streak ‘Mechs? I do, but I’m also an information junkie who’s been a sensor-crazed Find Stuff Guy in most any game that lets me be stuff, and even still it’s only been fairly recently (and with the introduction of the lighter, tighter CAP), that I’ve started incorporating active probes into a number of my machines regardless of whether they carry Streaks or not.

With the game in the state it currently is, the lore-appropriate version of the Guardian ECM system would be a 1.5-ton, 2-slot derperweight. It would offer no advantage to its carrier whatsoever and be left off of any design that made any sense whatsoever. The G-ECM’s only possible function which is both lore-appropriate and useful would be its ability to make Stealth Armor work – which, hey! Is sort of what it does now except without the Stealth Armor part!

I agree that the device is too strong as currently stands. The simple fact that Piranha is so incredibly tight-fisted with ECM is a pretty damning indication of its game-breaking ridiculousness. That said…there’s no reason to reduce it to a state of being less useful than Ferro-Fibrous armor on assault ‘Mechs.

And that right there sums up my point about how ECM was so much cart before the horse that it had to be given super powers to matter.

It was lazy to give ECM piles of awesome and not bother with developing functional and desireable support electronics.

Imagine an Artemis guidance system that accelerated LRM/SRM projectile speeds to levels that can threaten a ballistic based mech in a show down. As it is now a C1 Catapult vs any Jagermech is dead meat when it comes to a DPS contest.The Jager can aim at specific locations and has superior projectile speeds and recycle times.

Now would an ECM on your team be nice to counter 900 meter per second missiles? (remember artemis is direct fire only)

How about a NARC beacon that remained active for 45 seconds and transmitted the targeted mech's critical data to any mech on the map.

Wouldn't it be nice to jam that with an ECM?

A Beagle Active Probe that had a 150m range 45 degree forward looking cone of detection that will detect and allow locks on any mech "seen" with the BAP even if they were behind a building or hill?

I would want an ECM to counter enemy recon and spotting because that BAP can ruin a perfectly good ambush.

Wouldn't it be nice if LRM indirect fire required specialized spotting gear to spot for an LRM barrage.As it is now any mech looking at an enemy can spot but what if a NARC was needed.

That NARC = LRM death unless properly deployed ECM was utilized.

What about a command console? The mech with a command console could spot for indirect fire but,put an ECM with 180m of that command console and the spotter is out of action.

A TAG can "paint" a target 750m away and allow indirect LRM fire but not if that spotter was within 180m of an enemy ECM.


We could have had a complex and inter related information warfare system with useful support electronics and a need to counter those items and of course a way to counter them being countered.

But instead we got ECM with super powers under developed support electronics that were later coopted into the ECM with super powers fiasco and turned into counter measures for the very item that was suppose to counter them but was worthless for that task because nobody bothered to make useful support electronics to begin with.

And that is what I hate about ECM it was implemented befoe it had a purpose and instead of making the purpose they just gave ECM superpowers.

[Lykaon]

RogueLdr, on 28 July 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

Wow, i didn't know that all the lasers, PPC, all of the AC, LBXs and SRMs needed a lock on to shoot at the enemy.

I guess i've just been lucky hitting mechs under ECM this whole time, who knew?!

Seriously though, all ECM really does is prevent someone from sitting 800m away, behind cover from killing half a team.

As far as "stealth" goes, i'm pretty sure ECM doesn't make your screen go black. Try, you know.. LOOKING.
Be aware of you're surroundings, the minimap and the doritos are tools. Use them as a tool, not a crutch.

I've killed many a mech without a targeting box around him.

Puggie?

It seems to be players who can not understand the value of a device that removes 75% of a mech's sensor range has far more potent ability beyond being a superdupper anti missile system are ussually solo players who don't use team work and can't phathom how this is an asset as a powerful tool for victory even when no one has a single LRM on the field.

Honestly if you actually know what you are doing the missile jamming ability is just icing on the cake what you really use it for is information denial.

And that is why so many puggies think ECM is AMS they honestly have no idea what ECM actually does when deployed correctly.


Wow you didn't know that lasers,PPC all the ACs,LBX and SRM do benefit greatly by seeing the current condition of your target (you know the critical data ECM obfuscates) or do you kust spray ammo down range at the general direction of an enemy instead of aiming at weakened armor locations?

Wow you didn't know it is very useful to see the mech's letter designation,loadout and condition to supply your team with critical targets. Hey that's a 2 AC20 Jagermech designation Charlie in grid Bravo 5 or with ECM I think I see a jagermech over there to the eastish.

Wow you didn't know that if you use a neutral grey/light grey/dark grey commo spec that your mech becomes difficult to see on..Forest colony,river city,frozen city,alpine peaks,Tera Therma,HPG...well you get the idea and without a sensor assisted detection you would probably not notice a mech 300m away if it wasn't moving.(this is truth I do this all the time with a Raven 3L in pug matches,just stand there and type away giving intel to my team if you don't move they won't see you um often)

Wow you didn't know that if you so desired to you could have three mechs of an identical chassis painted in identical colors under ECM and cover alternate exposure so the enemy has no idea there are three mechs and not one.
"hey I see that highlander again" oh he moved to delta 4 oh wait that highlander doubled back again ...BLAM! suprise highlander in your face because you were so sure it was one.

Those are few totally non LRM related and potent uses of ECM that the grown ups use when they take ECM out on the field.

[Y E O N N E]

Seriously. D-DCs don't just get focused on because they are Atlases and because they are hindering LRMs, they get focused on because the allow allies for 200 m around them to move without showing up on radar. You think you are in a 4v4 fight when, all of a sudden, two Timberwolves, an Ember, and an Atlas D-DC are all over you from out of nowhere.

Should have sent a scout.

Edit: Grammar fail.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 28 July 2014 - 11:29 PM.

[Carcass23]

Crying on the forums because my missle boat was broked by EMC!

Seriously though, I don't get it. I have a mech with ECM, it gets countered all the time. I mean.. all the time. Good job enemy scouts! I can take or leave LRMs, sometimes when I actually do put LRMs into a build I have 0 problems finding targets. This topic is so old and stale. The answer was LTP then, and it remains the answer now. Teamwork is required to be effective in countering ECM but with enough planning, you too can add a TAG/BAP/NARC/ECM and counter the enemies. When my team is wandering every which way, unfocused and losing badly. It's strange how much more powerful enemy ECM becomes when my team is failing to coordinate together. Teamwork counters ECM efficiently, it's really not that difficult.

I also noticed a LOT of posters, standing up for the PUG army and insinuating that since the group of them as a whole are window lickers, ECM needs to be nerfed to allow special needs players a fighting chance. I am calling bullshart. Counter ignorance with education. That's what the forums are for. The PUG matches aren't full of drooling Neanderthals (no offense to any Neanderthals that might be reading this), they're just players. A lot of them are pretty good players too. This game doesn't have this mountainous learning curve that has been described, its NOT THAT HARD TO PLAY THIS GAME!

[Wolfways]

I know LRM's have had numerous buffs and nerfs since closed beta (and i remember when Artemis was introduced and missiles dropped straight down on mechs behind cover which of course was OP), but imo none of those buffs/nerfs made any real difference.

I laughed when the speed was increased recently and people complained and it was quickly reduced down to 160ms. Imo make them 300ms and it would make little difference, you still won't often hit anyone using cover.

I understand that indirect-fire is a force multiplier and i think indirect should be more restricted (TAG, NARC, UAV) but direct-fire needs a big buff. LRM's cannot compete with anything in direct-fire, the mode they are supposed to mainly be used in.
Also, because of the warning LRM's are not long range weapons.

Honestly though, at this point i'm sure they will never be worth using, even if the people who just want them nerfed/removed from the game were ignored. PGI obviously don't want them in the game in anywhere but the lowest ELO.
Sometimes i wish i could lock my ELO, or have a separate "low ELO" when using LRM's. It's no fun doing less than half as good as with other weapons

So i'll just keep playing now and then, trying to win, but making sure i nerf the hell out of my team by using the worst weapon in the game.

[MechWarrior849305]

As for LURMs - they were never treated as a weapon at all. Fighting 12 vs 12 is always about direct pinpoint fighting. Trying to hide 2-3 mechs behind means you have 9-10 against 12 on the frontline. And when those 10 die (and they will die, no exceptions), last 5-6 enemy mechs will come for rats

[Phashe]

ECM is fine. Where is my ECM Dragon!?

Funny, like most rant topics on the MWO forums, there are about 50% of the players who scream "OP" about something, and the other 50% crying "underpowered" for the exact same topic. Just about every topic. That screams balance to me.

[MechWarrior849305]

Phashe, on 29 July 2014 - 01:41 AM, said:

ECM is fine. Where is my ECM Dragon!?

Funny, like most rant topics on the MWO forums, there are about 50% of the players who scream "OP" about something, and the other 50% crying "underpowered" for the exact same topic. Just about every topic. That screams balance to me.

I've seen "Direwolf is underpowered, give him ECM" topic

[IraqiWalker]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 July 2014 - 11:28 PM, said:

Seriously. D-DCs don't just get focused on because they are Atlases and because they are hindering LRMs, they get focused on because the allow allies for 200 m around them to move without showing up on radar. You think you are in a 4v4 fight when, all of a sudden, two Timberwolves, an Ember, and an Atlas D-DC are all over you from out of nowhere.

Should have sent a scout.

Edit: Grammar fail.

DDCs mostly get focused because they are a 100 TON killing machine with an AC20=3xASRM6+MLs, and they will drop you faster than third period french if they see you. Even with ECM, people still go for the ballistic torso, and not the ECM torso. If my team has an LRM mech, then MAYBE.... MAYBE then, I will hit the ECM torso first. Unless I have a counter ready, like BAP, UAV, ECM, NARC, or TAG.

(Also, for anyone saying that TAG should work inside ECM:

Spoiler

Did you NOT read the description of what ECM means? ECM by nature jams communications, how is your targeting computer (the one in your mech, not an equipped one from the mechlab), going to transmit the targeting data from your laser guidance system (the TAG), to your friendlies, when your comm link is jammed?

Wolfways, on 29 July 2014 - 01:32 AM, said:

I understand that indirect-fire is a force multiplier and i think indirect should be more restricted (TAG, NARC, UAV) but direct-fire needs a big buff. LRM's cannot compete with anything in direct-fire, the mode they are supposed to mainly be used in.

No. THAT is so wrong. The first word in their name is "LONG" They are a weapon meant for long range combat, indirect fire in this case. NOT for you to use them at 200 meters. Yes, you can use them at 200 meters, but much like committing murder, just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD. If they get a speed increase, why would I bother with streaks, or regular SRMs? I'd just mount LRMs, and use them instead.

Also, for the record, the weapons we have in this game as LRMs, are not LRMs. They are Streak LRMs.

Their impact on the battlefield is devastating, unless of course you are dropping solo, and have no one to make your awesome long range support weapon work. If you have even one mech that works with you, and they manage to stay alive for longer than 10 seconds, you will ruin the enemy team's day.

With my BLR-1S in solo drops, with no real spotters, and just the locks I get from friendly PuGs who usually tell me to go Die in a Fire for using a "noob" weapon, I easily reduce 4-5 enemy mechs to husks, and charred bones. 1 mech, wrecking 4 or 5. Yeah, clearly they are not effective.

In competitive play, that same mechanic that makes them so great, makes them not usable, because no one wants to use a weapon that relies on spotters taking risks against extremely skilled opponents, and has so many counters anyone with 2 brain cells functioning well would be installing anyways.

The higher the skill of your opponents, the harder it is to make them work well. However, I've used them in non-competitive 12v12s, and have had good success with them.

[El Bandito]

Phashe, on 29 July 2014 - 01:41 AM, said:

ECM is fine. Where is my ECM Dragon!? Funny, like most rant topics on the MWO forums, there are about 50% of the players who scream "OP" about something, and the other 50% crying "underpowered" for the exact same topic. Just about every topic. That screams balance to me.

At no phase of this game's implementation, were there any serious amount of "ECM is underpowered" threads. Your 50-50 rule never would work on ECM, cause it is an unbalanced abomination which is also choking the LRM balance progress.

Edited by El Bandito, 29 July 2014 - 02:05 AM.

[Wolfways]

IraqiWalker, on 29 July 2014 - 01:58 AM, said:

No. THAT is so wrong. The first word in their name is "LONG" They are a weapon meant for long range combat, indirect fire in this case. NOT for you to use them at 200 meters. Yes, you can use them at 200 meters, but much like committing murder, just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD. If they get a speed increase, why would I bother with streaks, or regular SRMs? I'd just mount LRMs, and use them instead.

Also, for the record, the weapons we have in this game as LRMs, are not LRMs. They are Streak LRMs.

Their impact on the battlefield is devastating, unless of course you are dropping solo, and have no one to make your awesome long range support weapon work. If you have even one mech that works with you, and they manage to stay alive for longer than 10 seconds, you will ruin the enemy team's day.

With my BLR-1S in solo drops, with no real spotters, and just the locks I get from friendly PuGs who usually tell me to go Die in a Fire for using a "noob" weapon, I easily reduce 4-5 enemy mechs to husks, and charred bones. 1 mech, wrecking 4 or 5. Yeah, clearly they are not effective.

In competitive play, that same mechanic that makes them so great, makes them not usable, because no one wants to use a weapon that relies on spotters taking risks against extremely skilled opponents, and has so many counters anyone with 2 brain cells functioning well would be installing anyways.

The higher the skill of your opponents, the harder it is to make them work well. However, I've used them in non-competitive 12v12s, and have had good success with them.

What exactly is wrong? LRM's in MWO are medium range indirect-fire weapons. LRM's in BT are long range direct-fire weapons. I try to never use LRM's at short range. If i did what would be the point of them? I might as well use a short range weapon.
But you think they are a support weapon so i can see why you are confused

[IraqiWalker]

El Bandito, on 29 July 2014 - 02:02 AM, said:

At no phase of this game's implementation, were there any serious amount of "ECM is underpowered" threads. Your 50-50 rule never would work on ECM, cause it is an unbalanced abomination which is also choking the LRM balance progress.

I've seen those actually.

Wolfways, on 29 July 2014 - 02:07 AM, said:

What exactly is wrong? LRM's in MWO are medium range indirect-fire weapons. LRM's in BT are long range direct-fire weapons. I try to never use LRM's at short range. If i did what would be the point of them? I might as well use a short range weapon.
But you think they are a support weapon so i can see why you are confused

They are a medium-to-long range weapon, and they are a support weapon.

To be specific, they fill the role of Fire Support mechs. You have, snipers, and LRMers as FSUs in this game. Being able to park 300 or so meters behind the front line, and shelling multiple enemies to help out your team is an FSU's role.