296 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

IraqiWalker, on 29 July 2014 - 02:13 AM, said:

I've seen those actually.

How many threads? I bet you can count them in one hand, and I have been in the forums for a long time.

Edited by El Bandito, 29 July 2014 - 02:16 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

El Bandito, on 29 July 2014 - 02:15 AM, said:

How many threads? I bet you can count them in one hand.

Yup. However, they exist.

[Wolfways]

IraqiWalker, on 29 July 2014 - 02:13 AM, said:

They are a medium-to-long range weapon, and they are a support weapon.

To be specific, they fill the role of Fire Support mechs. You have, snipers, and LRMers as FSUs in this game. Being able to park 300 or so meters behind the front line, and shelling multiple enemies to help out your team is an FSU's role.

So they aren't BT's LRM's. That's my point.

But i don't consider a weapon as "long range" if it is only really viable up to around 6-800m. Especially one that can't even target something at its max range.

[El Bandito]

IraqiWalker, on 29 July 2014 - 02:17 AM, said:

Yup. However, they exist.

I never denied their existence. I simply pointed out that there are no serious amount of it to pay attention to.

Wolfways, on 29 July 2014 - 02:17 AM, said:

So they aren't BT's LRM's. That's my point. But i don't consider a weapon as "long range" if it is only really viable up to around 6-800m. Especially one that can't even target something at its max range.

Yeah, CERLLasers and C/ERPPC...now those buggers are long range weapons. LRMs in this game should be renamed to Streak MRMs.

Edited by El Bandito, 29 July 2014 - 02:21 AM.

[Phashe]

Proposal: I think no mech should be allowed to have more than a total of 20 LRMs... I guess I can live with 4x (not 5x) LRM5's, to keep my rule intact. Then we can nerf ECM with merry abandon. Everyone wins!

(sarcasm for the LRM players' tears)

Edited by Phashe, 29 July 2014 - 04:21 AM.

[Livewyr]

The sheer amount of anecdotal "evidence" from the underhive...

I will check back later.

[El Bandito]

Phashe, on 29 July 2014 - 03:02 AM, said:

Proposal: I think no mech should be allowed to have more than a total of 20 LRMs... I guess I can live with 5x LRM5's, to keep my rule intact. Then we can nerf ECM with merry abandon. Everyone wins! (sarcasm for the LRM players' tears)

Your math is off. Try harder.

[IraqiWalker]

Wolfways, on 29 July 2014 - 02:17 AM, said:

So they aren't BT's LRM's. That's my point.

But i don't consider a weapon as "long range" if it is only really viable up to around 6-800m. Especially one that can't even target something at its max range.

They are from BT, they are SLRMs.

You can target and hit enemies at 1000 meters. That's the max range they go to.

[Thunder Child]

ECM is game breaking for one reason, and one reason only. If every mech could take it, EVERY MECH WOULD TAKE IT. No item, be it weapon or equipment, should have that much demand. There should always be a small voice saying, do I, don't I.

[Deathlike]

IraqiWalker, on 29 July 2014 - 02:17 AM, said:

Yup. However, they exist.

While such threads exist like Yeti and Community Warfare (ok, maybe not that hyperbolic), those threads are pretty much "underhive approved".

I mean, we have threads about NARC being OP... considering how multiple ECM "counteracts" the NARC beacon.. so effectiveness is scattered with those that can reason out the changes, vs those that don't expose themselves to more complex combinations.

If ECM was just a mass jamming device that affected by enemies AND teammates alike, it would be a much better tradeoff than the current system that is so woefully one sided. Heck, opponents using ECM to actually use the Counter function are few and far in between.

[Phashe]

El Bandito, on 29 July 2014 - 03:24 AM, said:

Your math is off. Try harder.

LOL. Oops.

Thunder Child, on 29 July 2014 - 04:09 AM, said:

ECM is game breaking for one reason, and one reason only. If every mech could take it, EVERY MECH WOULD TAKE IT. No item, be it weapon or equipment, should have that much demand. There should always be a small voice saying, do I, don't I.

I wonder why we do not see 12 ECM mechs every match (well, even before the 3/3/3/3 thing)...hmmm... (rhetorical question, I know the answer)

Edited by Phashe, 29 July 2014 - 04:32 AM.

[El Bandito]

Phashe, on 29 July 2014 - 04:22 AM, said:

I wonder why we do not see 12 ECM mechs every match (well, even before the 3/3/3/3 thing...hmmm...)

Why ask dumb question? Only few mechs can equip ECM. If any of my regular mechs can equip it, I will equip it right away since it is so unbalanced. Even PGI is scared of releasing more ECM mechs due to the equipment's effectiveness.

Edited by El Bandito, 29 July 2014 - 04:35 AM.

[Thunder Child]

Quote

I wonder why we do not see 12 ECM mechs every match (well, even before the 3/3/3/3 thing...hmmm...)

Only because it IS limited to specific chassis. But that's my point. The only reason we DON'T see 12 ECMs in a match, is BECAUSE it is limited to a few chassis. If ECM were freely available to at least one variant of every chassis, then that one variant would be the most frequently used, barring some sort of PGI fudge up that gives it terrible hard points or something. I know that, if it WERE possible to fit ECM on everyone of my Mechs, I would FIND 1.5t of space, because it IS that OP.

It should prevent Indirect Missile Fire, and negate the bonuses of Artemis, TAG, BAP, and Narc. It should NOT be a Stealth field for everything within 180m.

[Phashe]

you missed my point. I KNOW it is limited to a few chassis. Better worded: "Why doesn't everyone play those few ECM variants, if ECM is so OP?" Because they are limited mechs, Not as good as some other vairants, etc, etc.. Read another way: "If ECM was sooo OP, then everyone would only pilot ECM variants. They do not." LOL. "rhetorical"... look it up.

Edited by Phashe, 29 July 2014 - 05:01 AM.

[Thunder Child]

I get that it is limited to a few chassis, and yes, we don't see those Chassis all the time because people have their own preferences. But as a counter argument, of the number of Kitfoxes you've seen, how many DON'T run the ECM arm? I can count those on one hand.

The Point I am trying to make, is IF it were readily available, no-one would run without it. AMS, you have to think about it. BAP, Targeting Computers, TAG? All are choices that you consider. ECM is currently a no-brainer. If your mech can run it, your mech has it. The Only DDCs I've seen that DON'T run it, are new players, or people that have pulled it out for another chassis, and forgotten to put it back in. For 1.5t, it is just too good. And in PuGs, it is definately game breaking. The lack of easy to use Comms means that unless there is an arrow, the Pugs will ignore it. There can be a DakkaWhale, or an LRM boat, or whatever, pumping shots into them, but if it's shrouded by ECM, they'll chase the Jenner.

The reason LRMs are as bad as they are, is because they have to try and contend with ECM. If ECM get's fixed, LRMs can then be reliably balanced.

[Thunder Child]

Phashe, on 29 July 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

you missed my point. I KNOW it is limited to a few chassis. Better worded: "Why doesn't everyone play those few ECM variants, if ECM is so OP?" Because they are limited mechs, Not as good as some other vairants, etc, etc.. Read another way: "If ECM was sooo OP, then everyone would only pilot ECM variants. They do not." LOL. "rhetorical"... look it up.

Nice Ninja Edit. But as a counter point, apart from Trial Atlas, how many Non-DDCs do you see. I know I see the occasional Boars Head, but, were I to give a rough estimate, I would say that 90% of the Atlas I fight are DDCs. Same could go for the Cicada 3M. I see a very rare X5, or some third variant that the player is using to unlock basics. The Spider is in the same boat. The 5k shows up, due to being a Trial. The 5v shows up out of necessity. The Raven? 3Ls. I see the very rare 2x for levelling, the Huginn, because some people like the Hero. And very very rarely, a 4x. But once again, the ECM variant is the major player. Commandos? I almost never see them, but when I do, it's the 2D, or the Death Knell.

So no, your "Rhetorical Question" is not self answering, because apart from a few reasonable exceptions, the ECM variant is the only variant used.

Edit: Also, notice how the Kitfox is the most common Clan Light, even though there are a considerable number of Adder owners out there?

Edited by Thunder Child, 29 July 2014 - 05:23 AM.

[Livewyr]

I will drive the Adder long enough to master it when it comes out for Cbills, but compared to a Jumpjet ECM light mech, it is garage ornament.

I say we give the Nova ECM.. watch what happens to the Stormcrow population. (Or the non-nova medium mech population in general.)

[IraqiWalker]

Deathlike, on 29 July 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

If ECM was just a mass jamming device that affected by enemies AND teammates alike,

That would defeat the purpose of ECM.

Thunder Child, on 29 July 2014 - 05:19 AM, said:

Nice Ninja Edit. But as a counter point, apart from Trial Atlas, how many Non-DDCs do you see. I know I see the occasional Boars Head, but, were I to give a rough estimate, I would say that 90% of the Atlas I fight are DDCs.

Flawed argument. None of the other Atlas variants are different enough to warrant picking. They all have the same hardpoint layout, the DDC has that PLUS ECM (and 2 ballistics in the ST), so for sacrificing one DHS, plus half a ton of something, you can slap ECM.

ECM is definitely more beneficial than a single DHS. The argument with the lights is the same thing. All the other spider variants are flat out inferior to the 5D, because of hardpoints. However, you do get to see a lot of 5Ks out there, since they can mount close enough firepower, and they have MGs.

Ravens are in a similar boat. Most people don't know how to use the RVN-4x and RVN-2x for them to be abundant. Even if you remove ECM from the 3L, it's still significantly better for the style most light pilots use.

The Commando has a similar problem. The 2D has 3 missile hardpoints (have you seen what I can do with a 3xSRM4 or 3xSRM6 mando?). The other variants are seen more prevalently than any other chassis that has an ECM variant (other than Cicada), because they have something that makes it worthwhile to pilot them over the missile heavy 2D. Speed.

Livewyr, on 29 July 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

I will drive the Adder long enough to master it when it comes out for Cbills, but compared to a Jumpjet ECM light mech, it is garage ornament.

I say we give the Nova ECM.. watch what happens to the Stormcrow population. (Or the non-nova medium mech population in general.)

Give the SCR 2JJs, and we'll see what happens to the medium mech population.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 29 July 2014 - 06:35 AM.

[Deathlike]

IraqiWalker, on 29 July 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

That would defeat the purpose of ECM.

It wouldn't.

While the jamming works both ways, you can't actually argue that it is a straight benefit that it is now. Think harder about said implications.

For instance, it changes a few dynamics:

1) "If I can't spot you on radar, you can't spot me either" - information denial is very important, but as currently constituted it benefits most on the ECM wielder. If the jamming affects both you and your teammates alike, while targets can spot you VISUALLY w/o the red triangle, the same is applied to you... so there's no automatic benefit.

2) "Can't be a D-DC lurmer" - While I detest D-DCs as missile boats, it will force the Atlas to run in counter mode, allowing it to lurm properly. This will allow people to spot the LRM boat better since the mech is forced in "expose itself" to generate a locking signal on the target. ECM cover does affect LRM boats favorably (possibly to a detriment of the team, due to the lack of advancement), and while you can pay attention to the LRM trails... if you are being targeted, you are spending time to get into cover.

3) "Streaks vs Streaks interaction" - Having more ECM means that you need the same or more amount of BAP/ECM counters (including UAVs) to properly counter the target you want to use Streaks on. If changed under my scenario, having more ECM would be a detriment to Streaking your opponents. Everyone would have to properly run Counter mode to make the most of Streaks.. so you don't automatically have the "more ECM > less ECM counters" win outright. So, it requires a bit of thought AND teamwork to properly use weapons that are already geared at destroying lights efficiently.

[KharnZor]

Livewyr, on 29 July 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

I will drive the Adder long enough to master it when it comes out for Cbills, but compared to a Jumpjet ECM light mech, it is garage ornament.

I say we give the Nova ECM.. watch what happens to the Stormcrow population. (Or the non-nova medium mech population in general.)

You cant be serious, even with ecm the Nova is inferior to the Stormcrow in every way.