296 replies to this topic

[Gavalin]

On the topic of LRM's here. I think having them travel at 300 M/S if "Dumb fired' would be nice. But tracking fire should stay as it is.

[terrycloth]

I've been driving a Raven-4X because I was new and didn't realize ECM was a piece of equipment that could only be slotted on select chassis and the 3L was one of those. I assumed that since it was game-breaking and overpowered that it must be a module that I could equip on any mech once I'd paid 20000000 GXP to unlock it.

Now I feel really stupid. Although I guess the 4X gets an extra module slot now? Not that I actually own any modules. So expensive...

[El Bandito]

terrycloth, on 29 July 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

I've been driving a Raven-4X because I was new and didn't realize ECM was a piece of equipment that could only be slotted on select chassis and the 3L was one of those. I assumed that since it was game-breaking and overpowered that it must be a module that I could equip on any mech once I'd paid 20000000 GXP to unlock it. Now I feel really stupid. Although I guess the 4X gets an extra module slot now? Not that I actually own any modules. So expensive...

Just be glad you aren't driving the 2X.

[IraqiWalker]

Deathlike, on 29 July 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

It wouldn't.

No, it literally would. Regardless of the arguments you make, the way Electronic Counter Measures work, is that they jam the foreign bands that the enemy is using, while allowing friendly bands to carry signals un-interrupted. While MW:O's interpretation of ECM isn't how it works in lore, it's actually how ECM works in real life.

In away, it should have more and more detrimental effects the close you are to the ECM source. What's the point of a system that jams friendly communications as well? That is what I mean by killing the purpose of ECM.

Gavalin, on 29 July 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

On the topic of LRM's here. I think having them travel at 300 M/S if "Dumb fired' would be nice. But tracking fire should stay as it is.

That would actually be a fun modification, and I think it would be fine to have separate speeds. However, 300M/s is a bit too much. Especially when you can dumb fire an SRM 20 (LRM 20) at 400 meters.

[Deathlike]

IraqiWalker, on 29 July 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

No, it literally would. Regardless of the arguments you make, the way Electronic Counter Measures work, is that they jam the foreign bands that the enemy is using, while allowing friendly bands to carry signals un-interrupted. While MW:O's interpretation of ECM isn't how it works in lore, it's actually how ECM works in real life.

Personally, I don't want even want to discuss the real life implications of the argument... I'm strictly talking about a video game balance design decision, that has less to do with lore or TT, but more to do with "a reason to not just take the damn thing 100% of the time" (because you're asking for ridicule/trouble if you don't).

Edited by Deathlike, 29 July 2014 - 02:19 PM.

[Mcgral18]

IraqiWalker, on 29 July 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

No, it literally would. Regardless of the arguments you make, the way Electronic Counter Measures work, is that they jam the foreign bands that the enemy is using, while allowing friendly bands to carry signals un-interrupted. While MW:O's interpretation of ECM isn't how it works in lore, it's actually how ECM works in real life.

In away, it should have more and more detrimental effects the close you are to the ECM source. What's the point of a system that jams friendly communications as well? That is what I mean by killing the purpose of ECM.

So, what downside would you recommend for ECM then?

Perhaps generating 1 heat per second because of the Stealth armour properties? You don't even have to pay the 12 crit slots, only the heat instead of nothing for the Magic Jesus Box.


I like the idea of ECM being universally disruptive, but I have to admit that would be pretty bad in PUGs.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 29 July 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

I like the idea of ECM being universally disruptive, but I have to admit that would be pretty bad in PUGs.

That's fine... we just have to WHINE IN CHAT "LEARN TO USE THE COUNTER BUTTON".

Right now, people don't do it (when appropriate) AND they never really need/want to in the first place.

Edited by Deathlike, 29 July 2014 - 02:25 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 29 July 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

That's fine... we just have to WHINE IN CHAT "LEARN TO USE THE COUNTER BUTTON".

Right now, people don't do it (when appropriate) AND they never really need/want to in the first place.

Perhaps it could also cause PGI to rethink hard-counters.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 29 July 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

Perhaps it could also cause PGI to rethink hard-counters.

How are you going to hard counter Paul? Logic? Whining? The latter seems to work better, but for all the wrong reasons.

[IraqiWalker]

Mcgral18, on 29 July 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

So, what downside would you recommend for ECM then?

Perhaps generating 1 heat per second because of the Stealth armour properties? You don't even have to pay the 12 crit slots, only the heat instead of nothing for the Magic Jesus Box.


I like the idea of ECM being universally disruptive, but I have to admit that would be pretty bad in PUGs.

Generating heat per second would actually be a nice downside to it (preferably 3 heat per second, since 1 is not only negligible, but won't be noticed). The stealth bubble is a bit much. You should be able to target (but not get locks on) mechs under the bubble. Instead of NOT target, and NOT get locks.

Locks here mean LRM and SSRM lock ons.

The one issue I would have to look into is whether this would allow the mech to dissipate heat or not.Since it might seem like heat will not be dissipating while ECM is equipped.

[Wolfways]

IraqiWalker, on 29 July 2014 - 03:53 AM, said:

They are from BT, they are SLRMs.

You can target and hit enemies at 1000 meters. That's the max range they go to.

You can only lock your own targets out to 800m, and at that range the target would have to be sitting out in the open and stupid enough to not move to cover. Even new players aren't that bad.
That's why most people using LRM's and know what they're doing mainly use them at around 600m or less.

PGI used the two biggest nerfs they could on any weapon when they transferred LRM's from TT to MWO. Small arenas instead of realistic maps, and the slowest projectile speed in the game. Slow projectile and long range do not go well together, especially when there is an abundance of cover available.


Also, ECM should not stop LRM/SSRM locks.
This thread is getting as bad as PGI, making stuff up when ECM already exists in BT.

Edited by Wolfways, 30 July 2014 - 03:41 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

It's extremely easy to sidetrack this community. Here, I will demonstrate.

Paul did it.
ECM is balanced.
But machineguns are crit-seekers. They're not supposed to damage mechs.
I use pulse lasers all the time.
Clans are not P2W.
The official tournament was not P2W.
Go back to hawken.
NIKO SNOW!
Community warfare.
Bring back RnR.
ggclose

[Lala Satalin Deviluke]

Zolaz, on 26 July 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

Nothing breaks the game like ECM and PGI knows it. That is why you see it on so few mechs. If you are going to PUG it up and want to win, just take ECM mechs. Especially, if you are a "pilot" who doesnt break 200 damage each and every game. If you are one of those "pilots" feel free to help your team out and pick up some ECM, your W/L average will love you.

It affects only none direct fire weapons.

[Vassago Rain]

Lala Satalin Deviluke, on 30 July 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

It affects only none direct fire weapons.

It affects everything, because without red doritos, mechs are brown and black blobs against brown, black, and green background.

[KharnZor]

Vassago Rain, on 30 July 2014 - 04:57 AM, said:

It affects everything, because without red doritos, mechs are brown and black blobs against brown, black, and green background.

Because looking is hard.

[IraqiWalker]

Wolfways, on 30 July 2014 - 03:30 AM, said:

You can only lock your own targets out to 800m, and at that range the target would have to be sitting out in the open and stupid enough to not move to cover. Even new players aren't that bad.
That's why most people using LRM's and know what they're doing mainly use them at around 600m or less.

PGI used the two biggest nerfs they could on any weapon when they transferred LRM's from TT to MWO. Small arenas instead of realistic maps, and the slowest projectile speed in the game. Slow projectile and long range do not go well together, especially when there is an abundance of cover available.


Also, ECM should not stop LRM/SSRM locks.
This thread is getting as bad as PGI, making stuff up when ECM already exists in BT.

1- Most people already have BAP installed in their LRM mech, so the range is 1000M for locks.

2- Yes, because of the slow speed, most LRM mechs use them at 600 or less. However, it actually gets THAT bad in the solo drop scene sometimes. I've seen people get killed by LRMs at 800 meters. There's also the issue of map design. If it's Alpine peaks, and I'm on the mountain at I9, there is literally no cover for you other than H7, or being a 1000 meters away from me. At least if you want to participate in the battle.

3- When projectile speed was buffed beyond the current one, LRMs became near instant death the second you stepped out of cover The current speed is good enough. I would go for the double damage double cycle time fix, since that would remove the spammy annoying effect. Which is honestly the main reason most people complain.

4- I agree that Guardian ECM shouldn't interfere with LRM and SSRM locks, however:
A- We're effectively using Angel, which is it's own ball of yarn to tackle.
B- EVERYONE has the "signal low" warning when ECM mechs are near them, when in fact, only mechs equipped with BAP should get it.

[Sorbic]

Greyboots, on 26 July 2014 - 08:12 PM, said:

Oh ECM I love you, Let me count the ways.

You stop working if you get NARCed, have someone with a BAP near you, have another ECM mech near you (who knows what the J button does), get Tagged, get spotted on seismics or shot by a PPC. Or aren't standing in cover (because it doesn't, despite popular belief, make you invisible and stuff like lasers, ACs, gauss rifles and PPCs remain hurty too).

"BAP near you" Yeah, very near. So near in fact that my lrms would be useless. And tag, heh yeah if there's only one ECM covering the mech I tag then I can cut through it. Add more ECM's and tag becomes more and more useless. PPC = 4 seconds which can occasionally help for streaks and and other lrm that are very close. At least it pings the mechs location on the map if you lock.

ECM isn't god mode that some folks pretend it is but it does need toned down just a bit. I would like to see the complete lock shield only work for those who don't have a LOS view. If you're staring at the mech then simply make ECM increase time to lock by 3x or something. And lessen the multiple ECM effect on tag.

[Wolfways]

IraqiWalker, on 30 July 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

1- Most people already have BAP installed in their LRM mech, so the range is 1000M for locks.

Optional equipment should never be mandatory to make a weapon work, otherwise it isn't really optional

Quote

2- Yes, because of the slow speed, most LRM mechs use them at 600 or less. However, it actually gets THAT bad in the solo drop scene sometimes. I've seen people get killed by LRMs at 800 meters. There's also the issue of map design. If it's Alpine peaks, and I'm on the mountain at I9, there is literally no cover for you other than H7, or being a 1000 meters away from me. At least if you want to participate in the battle.

I solo drop all the time but i never see anyone getting hit by more than maybe a couple of salvos at long range. Maybe it's ELO related.
The issue with Alpine (and any map really) is indirect-fire. If it was harder to fire indirect then LRM's wouldn't be a big problem, and firing direct means taking return fire.

Quote

3- When projectile speed was buffed beyond the current one, LRMs became near instant death the second you stepped out of cover The current speed is good enough. I would go for the double damage double cycle time fix, since that would remove the spammy annoying effect. Which is honestly the main reason most people complain.

When i saw that LRM's were being buffed to 175m i laughed as it meant practically no change. I was also playing then and it made no difference to me, as the firer or "target". And then people complained until it was changed to 160ms, and they still complain they're too fast...
I do like the RoF/damage idea though...but maybe not double. I don't care about the missile spam. I don't spam missiles because i don't play boats, and boats never bother me. At least with more damage a single salvo (which is about all i get on a mech before it's in cover) will do more damage. Plus i'd be happier if LRM's actually worked better against me...i hate useless weapons in a game.
I still think the warning needs removed at least to make LRM's viable at long range instead of the target running for cover as soon as you fire.

Quote

4- I agree that Guardian ECM shouldn't interfere with LRM and SSRM locks, however:
A- We're effectively using Angel, which is it's own ball of yarn to tackle.
B- EVERYONE has the "signal low" warning when ECM mechs are near them, when in fact, only mechs equipped with BAP should get it.

A - Yeah a screw-up that PGI should have fixed long ago.
B - I agree completely there.


I just hate that LRM's are nowhere near as effective as they were in TT yet people want them nerfed because they get killed by indirect-fire. It's the indirect-fire that is the problem and this causes the weapon to never be effective in direct-fire because PGI won't give it the buffs it deserves.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

I don't understand why ECM got so botched. form what i read in the books

• 180 Meter radius
  
• Counters enemy Communications/C3 which lets face it... every mech has a C3 network already.w/o the equipment.
  
• Counters NARC/Artemis/BAP
  
• Can generate ghost targets

I don't get why those 4 rules where soo difficult to implement. would love to see it brought more in line with the above.

[IraqiWalker]

Wolfways, on 30 July 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

Optional equipment should never be mandatory to make a weapon work, otherwise it isn't really optional

I partly agree there. However, I think that if you really want to plink targets at 1000 meters, you should have spotters for that, or if you really don't want spotters, then use BAP. The whole point is that as an LRM mech, you shouldn't visually see the enemy much, minimizing return fire, since you're chock full of ammo, and are slow, plus your back up weapons suck.

This helps drive players into playing the role of a Fire Support Mech, more properly, and emphasizes indirect fire, which is what these mechs should be doing.

Wolfways, on 30 July 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

I solo drop all the time but i never see anyone getting hit by more than maybe a couple of salvos at long range. Maybe it's ELO related.

I agree, when I was in lower ELO, LRMs were considered cheese, and as my ELO climbed, I started seeing fewer and fewer LRM boats, and the ones that did show up, had to work extra hard to clock 600+ damage games.

Wolfways, on 30 July 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

The issue with Alpine (and any map really) is indirect-fire. If it was harder to fire indirect then LRM's wouldn't be a big problem, and firing direct means taking return fire.

In my opinion, and perception, I see LRMs as mainly an indirect fire weapon. Yes, they have the ability to be fired directly, but I think that defeats the purpose of mounting LRMs, or at least the draw back of mounting them: Relegating your mech to the rear lines.

Wolfways, on 30 July 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

When i saw that LRM's were being buffed to 175m i laughed as it meant practically no change. I was also playing then and it made no difference to me, as the firer or "target". And then people complained until it was changed to 160ms, and they still complain they're too fast...

Yeah, too bad a lot of people can't understand "Rock beats missile", and find cover too difficult to use. Admittedly, there are areas where cover is inadequate, but even the worst maps have at least 2 spots where you are safe from LRMs.

Wolfways, on 30 July 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

I do like the RoF/damage idea though...but maybe not double. I don't care about the missile spam. I don't spam missiles because i don't play boats, and boats never bother me. At least with more damage a single salvo (which is about all i get on a mech before it's in cover) will do more damage. Plus i'd be happier if LRM's actually worked better against me...i hate useless weapons in a game.
I still think the warning needs removed at least to make LRM's viable at long range instead of the target running for cover as soon as you fire.

Honestly, the rate of fire is too fast for LRMs, It needs modification. Right now the smaller launchers are just too good. LRM5s will hit the CT with almost the entire salvo, and LRM 10s are pretty much the kings of efficiency as far as LRM launchers go. I have no problem with the mechanics, heat and slot cost. In fact almost everything about LRMs is somewhat fine for me, except for the spammability, as it is an extremely crippling factor for the target.

Wolfways, on 30 July 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

I just hate that LRM's are nowhere near as effective as they were in TT yet people want them nerfed because they get killed by indirect-fire. It's the indirect-fire that is the problem and this causes the weapon to never be effective in direct-fire because PGI won't give it the buffs it deserves.

PGI making balance changes based on the gaming population that can't work a door knob to save their own lives has been a problem from day one.