296 replies to this topic

[mogs01gt]

IraqiWalker, on 28 July 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

The main flaw with BV balancing is that in TT you didn't need teams of equal units. I could run one behemoth tank, vs. a battalion of jump infantry, and it would technically be equal in BV, but you can't do that when each team is mandated to be 12 units.For BV matching to really work, we would need to remove all mechs but one. Then keep all other mechs that have it's exact BV rating.What does SRM speed have to do with this? Or are we venturing into strawman territory here?They're balanced against each other. Yes, because it depends on the role you want to serve in the team. Ballistics are the king of the game right now, because there is one tactic that outright dominates above all others and it uses them instead of missiles. Their mechanics exacerbate it, however. Over all, the trade off is between safety and being a force multiplier that can support multiple friendlies quickly, and being able to kill a single target easier.That's not how streaks operate. They are missiles that by design couldn't be fired unless the targeting computer had a 100% probability of them hitting the target.Pointing and clicking is easy. Actually hitting is harder. Leading targets is not an easy thing to learn, and if you say there is no leading, either you have been using lasers, or MGs. Once you're past 300 meters you really need to lead for your shot to hit the specific component you are aiming for.As for bullet drop. Get into any mech right now, go into training grounds and tell me there's no bullet drop. Depending on the AC firing the ranges differ. AC 20s start to drop around 300-400 meters. While AC 10s for example start dropping around 600 meters I think.Because you don't need to aim. Your target is a box bigger than the mech you are aiming for. Your argument is based on dropping solo with no coordination, when dropping in a group as small as 2 people my LRM boat starts annihilating people very quickly. While being used in an indirect fire support role. The system has many counters because it has many advantages. Acquiring a lock is easy, holding it gets tricky, unless you have a spotter, and then it's easy as well. The level of suppression it can apply far surpasses that of any other weapon, simply due to psychological pressure.Maybe using it indirectly is inefficient (it isn't, unless you're beyond 600 meters, and have no real spotters), but that still doesn't negate the benefits you get from firing with impunity, and without being fired back upon. A ballistic mech still has to expose itself, and will lose armor in order to deal damage.Basically, the counter to PP FLD, is EVERY WEAPON IN THE GAME. The mech reveals itself, and it gets fired back upon. While with LRMs your spotters are giving you the data to hit targets that can't fire back at you. Not to mention that if someone puts a UAV up, it's open season on the enemy team.1 UAV, 3 LRM boats, and we chewed out the enemy team. Turned a 4-2 match into a 6-12 match.There are many counters to LRMs, and sometimes it feels like they border on over-kill, I know, I run an LRM boat every now and then. However, in all honesty, LRMs are in a good place right now (I still want the double damage for double cycle tweak to be implemented), and they serve their purpose well.They were never meant to be an annihilating weapon. They are a support weapon. Using them as a main weapon is fine with a few specific chassis, and in specific roles, all those roles are support roles, not front line killer roles.

So your whole base for saying LRM's are "unskilled" is because they require two mechs to be effective......You dont see the issue with that argument?

[Wolfways]

IraqiWalker, on 28 July 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

A ballistic mech still has to expose itself, and will lose armor in order to deal damage.

It's amazing how many bad players do that.
I will shoot anything that is shooting a teammate or isn't looking my way. I only go head-to-head when forced to (i.e. tactics failed).

So neither LRM's or AC's have to expose themselves. Unless of course you mean that the AC mech has to expose himself to the enemy if he has no teammates around...which is the same for an LRM mech.

[mogs01gt]

Wolfways, on 28 July 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

It's amazing how many bad players do that.
I will shoot anything that is shooting a teammate or isn't looking my way. I only go head-to-head when forced to (i.e. tactics failed).So neither LRM's or AC's have to expose themselves. Unless of course you mean that the AC mech has to expose himself to the enemy if he has no teammates around...which is the same for an LRM mech.

This issue he just opened up stating that LRMs are highly effective with a spotter can be twisted the other way. Two mechs with Pin Point damage weapons will still be vastly superior than the 1 LRM + 1 spotter setup. Now there would be two mechs with converging damage on the same spot.

Edited by mogs01gt, 28 July 2014 - 10:58 AM.

[Livewyr]

Prezimonto, on 28 July 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

Maybe not: High meta mechs like DS and anything else will also inflate. The thing is they self regulate if it's usage based. ECM mechs become too expensive based on use eventually and people stop using them so much. If that means there's a single ECM on each team... well it's not any worse than we have now.

I do not think I like having the options being:

MWO ECM
vs
Perfect "Meta"

It would be much simpler just to fix ECM so it would not matter as much how many are on either side. (This would also include reworking LRMs, who have been buffed considerably in the face of MWO ECM.)

[Prezimonto]

Livewyr, on 28 July 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

I do not think I like having the options being:

MWO ECM
vs
Perfect "Meta"

It would be much simpler just to fix ECM so it would not matter as much how many are on either side. (This would also include reworking LRMs, who have been buffed considerably in the face of MWO ECM.)

I agree!

I just don't think it will happen. If ECM was actually going to be balanced, I suspect it would have already been done. Someone there thinks it's their goldenboy solution to something. Whether it's actually "wasting" resources developing real information warfare or just panic during the second round of "LRM's are OP OMG, what do we do?" I have no idea.

What's funny is looking at the duct-tape approach to fixing problems the devs have taken:
LRM's are OP: AMS/missile warning.... LRM's suck so get a buff, LRM's OP: ECM
FPS game is boring due to 10 second weapon cycles: triple weapon cycles.........oh, mechs die too fast, double armor.........oh, we overheat badly now....... introduce upgrades (with RnR) so people can shoot as they please... remove RnR... stock loadout unviable

ECM: round after round of competing weapons to reign in it's power.

Oh: lasers are too strong: nerf ML damage. Introduce HSR and ballistic weapons are wildly OP

I wish they'd just look at previous "fixes" and undo them when the fix competing issues.

[Wolfways]

Livewyr, on 28 July 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

(This would also include reworking LRMs, who have been buffed considerably in the face of MWO ECM.)

They have?

[Yokaiko]

Wolfways, on 28 July 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

They have?

Said no one ever.

[Wolfways]

I feel like i should change my name to Captain LRM.

"If you need me just say the three magic letters...L...R....M!!!"

[Joseph Mallan]

Wolfways, on 28 July 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

They have?

Yokaiko, on 28 July 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

Said no one ever.

If it was never said... How could you quote the OP???

[Phashe]

Hmmm. I think ECMs are fine. LRM boats ruin a match for me. I do not pilot slow mechs personally, but I think it stinks that the only way an atlas can play these days is to be an LRM boat... They cannot get into close range with all the LRM button mashers out there.

On the same token, I'd give a foot just to see a damn ECM light not run off and die on his own. :-/ Enough of those out there to keep ECM from ever being OP.

I still vote for an ECM Dragon & Awesome. Give the unloved some loving!

[LawDawg]

Me and A friend sometimes run SPD-5D..We dont get tagged, NARCED and no lights around us to counter. We Stilll get worked by LRMS, Both IS and Clan (IS being the worst). \

ECM is not "GOD ALMIGHT' its good, but ppl make too much of it. The KitFox, Is nasty as support, but goes down quick.

If you have issues with ECM, Take a BAP or TAG. Problem solved, QQ over. No more post about ECM.

Edited by SLDF LawDog, 28 July 2014 - 11:55 AM.

[charov]

ECM breaks what? The LRMs and what else?!

Come on ppl you can't be serious

[Wolfways]

SLDF LawDog, on 28 July 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

Me and A friend sometimes run SPD-5D..We dont get tagged, NARCED and no lights around us to counter. We Stilll get worked by LRMS, Both IS and Clan (IS being the worst). \

ECM is not "GOD ALMIGHT' its good, but ppl make too much of it. The KitFox, Is nasty as support, but goes down quick.

If you have issues with ECM, Take a BAP or TAG. Problem solved, QQ over. No more post about ECM.

Yeah, take those "optional" pieces of equipment! Even if they don't help you in any way...

red devil2, on 28 July 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

ECM breaks what? The LRMs and what else?!

Come on ppl you can't be serious

Is that not enough?

[Mcgral18]

Wolfways, on 28 July 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

They have?

When ECM was introduced, weren't they around 1.8 damage and ~200 M/s?

Explosion damage for LRM+A is still at 1.8 damage, while normal LRM ammo is still down at 0.7. They've been buffed and nerfed considerably over the course of MWO.

[Phashe]

oh come on now. You can not keep 12 players underneath the cloak of an ECM. At best you get 5 or so once a match.that can not ruin the game for a balanced Mech. in my opinion we could use more ECM. :-)

[mogs01gt]

Phashe, on 28 July 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

Hmmm. I think ECMs are fine. LRM boats ruin a match for me. I do not pilot slow mechs personally, but I think it stinks that the only way an atlas can play these days is to be an LRM boat... They cannot get into close range with all the LRM button mashers out there.
On the same token, I'd give a foot just to see a damn ECM light not run off and die on his own. :-/ Enough of those out there to keep ECM from ever being OP.
I still vote for an ECM Dragon & Awesome. Give the unloved some loving!

The issues you are addressing are not issues with equipment balance. ECM lights running off to scout or snipe are doing their job until they dont realize that they need to be cloaking the team with their ECM from missiles once mechs reach the 900ish meter mark.

Unless you are on a small map(different issue again) you arent getting hit by LRMs. PP FLD damage is dominating the 1000-1500 range. So again, map sizing and game modes are hurting Lights, Assaults and most Mediums.

Edited by mogs01gt, 28 July 2014 - 01:00 PM.

[DocBach]

Mcgral18, on 28 July 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

When ECM was introduced, weren't they around 1.8 damage and ~200 M/s?

Explosion damage for LRM+A is still at 1.8 damage, while normal LRM ammo is still down at 0.7. They've been buffed and nerfed considerably over the course of MWO.

They also didn't have any splash damage reduction to the head, and Atlas head boxes were huge. Launch one salvo of LRM-15's from a Catapult and you'd kill an Atlas.

[Lykaon]

mogs01gt, on 28 July 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:

LOL @ ppl wanting LRMs nerf'd. When do people actually boat LRMs anymore? They are weak as hell! Them being weak simply hurts multiple mech variants. LRMs need massive buffs!


The issue I have with ECM is the fact it can cloak an entire lance. Unless you equip BAP, you wont ever seen them flanking you.

Funny story..2 nights ago on a spur of the moment "let's do this for laughs" A Death's Hand Brigade 8 man built exclusivley for supporting the use of LRMs won 9 matches in a row including a 12-0 vs a well respected and skilled group.
The wins were almost always landslides and the fireworks were spectacular.

What we discovered was coordination and patience are required to use LRMs in the group queue.You need everyone with a TAG and several NARC platforms (including Stormcrow LRM boats with a NARC & TAG) You need to have proper deployment to avoid an over run on the LRM possitions (keeping several mechs within support range of each other but none with overlapping 180m min ranges)

In the end our reign of terror was put to an end by a well coordinated and mixed loadout team using a little of everything and doing it well.



Umm..what are you talking about BAP? You can have 50 trucks loads of Active Probes and you still won't see an ECM cloaked team on sensors until the ECM is within 150m and by then guess what? You have been well and truely FLANKED ALREADY!

I deploy a flanking formation frequently with ECM cover the ECM mech is either the rear or in the rear area just because of the simple fact that a BAP needs to be within 150m of the ECM it's self to counter it. SO if my ECM is 120m-150m behind the first mech in the formation that BAP needs to be standing INSIDE my formation to counter the ECM and.that means we get to kill the BAP mech.

[Runenstahl]

ECM currently does two things:
#1 It helps you to move unnoticed (works extremely well on maps with bad visibility)
and
#2 it helps against LRMs and Streaks
Thats all.

about #1 - allowing you to move unnoticed by the enemy is very useful. Especially at long ranges (close by your ECM-bubble gives you away).
about #2 - It only really makes a difference when you don't have cover. If your in cover your immune to everything anyways.
It only works against Streaks (that is one of a dozen or so weapon systems).
It gives you a big bonus against LRM's.

Wait... a big bonus ? Your immune, right ? No, your not. Here's a secret:
LRM's do NOT need a lock to hit and kill you. It's really hard to hit moving targets, but if your enemy is standing still (while sniping, overheated or while feeling immune due to ECM-cover) your LRM's work just fine when fired unguided. Try it out in testing grounds (lock onto one target and fire your LRM's on another one to fire unguided) you do EXACTLY the same amount of damage as if firing guarded LRM's (might be a difference if your using Artemis or Tag).

Now I don't have real information on this, but I believe your enemy does NOT get "incoming missiles" if you fire unguided on him. So thats actually a cool side effect. (Would be nice if some team to test this to verify it).

But in any case, I've been able to deal quite a bit of LRM damage against ECM-shielded mechs in the past so I really don't have a problem with ECM. It's powerful, yes. OP ? Not in my opinion.

[Heeden]

Malleus011, on 28 July 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

ECM is the greatest slayer of fun in the game.

Fix it.

The only problem I have with ECM is the effect it has on PuGs without voice-coms, but in general it isn't that terrible.

LRMs on the other hand annoy the hell out of me and even if we eventually win spending 5 minutes behind a rock waiting for them to get bored or run out of ammo leaves a bad taste in my mouth.