1263 replies to this topic

[ArkahnX]

The first option is completely over the top, don't go adding more confusing, not explained systems, to the game.

Speed change is doable.

[Gyrok]

I would be fine with something like ~950m/s - ~1050m/s for ERPPC, and standard PPCs about 100m/s behind whatever the ER ends up doing.

[W i L d F i R 3]

Why not create a logical lobby system, much like most modern games, where you can create a game, and ask for players, and people in the regular game can see game titles and choose which game they want to enter. Available games can look something like this...

4v4, need 4 man group
6v6, need 6 man, no air/arty
6v3, need a 3, you cant use ppc/gauss...We want to win

and so on...


Each game host, can determine which weapons are allowed, including modules. then the cry babies can play together,and the meta whores can play together.

LORD LUI
ggclose

Edited by Lucy Lui, 29 July 2014 - 04:54 PM.

[Yokaiko]

ArkahnX, on 29 July 2014 - 04:42 PM, said:

The first option is completely over the top, don't go adding more confusing, not explained systems, to the game.

Speed change is doable.

The speed change is garbage as well, that would make PPCs slower than an AC10, so this is a weapon that is already useless up close (IS) and to hot to brawl with (clan) and something you can dodge at range?

Useless.

[Sephlock]

Go ahead and turn it on, but in exchange please take away the other Gauss nerfs, or at least take away the charge up time nerf.

[Zack Esseth]

New mechanic, I can see that. Slowing down PPCs, the heat is already bad with them. This is fine and all but its going to hurt mechs that just got nerfed more than they already are hurting and the Dire Wolf will just be an Ultra 5 boat. The Victors and Highlanders have gotten it hard with the last jump jet change. I almost don't see Highlanders anymore.

[Wintersdark]

Falcon One, on 29 July 2014 - 04:29 PM, said:

Decrease the speed make a weapon less effective on long range. Hitting a jump sniper with a gauss is no problem but with a AC10 its much harder why? Because you have to lead your weapon. For the gauss you have to predict the moment for less then a second but the AC10 on the same range need almost 2 seconds witch makes the chance to miss much higher.

This may come as a shock, but I think that's exactly what I said in the very part of my post that you quoted. Yes, it will be harder to hit targets at range. And?

Monkey Lover, on 29 July 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

Paul better come up with some game play before you kill sniping. There is almost never left to do in this game. There is nothing wrong with the system we have now. ppc+gauss should hurt. Its a sniping weapon. If you get hit by a snipe you should say "dang what happen" .

Not lets push across this open land who cares if i get hit a little.

Desyncing the projectiles allows them to still work just fine as a sniping weapon. It's harder to hit moving targets at range, but that's not really a problem. As it stands, sniping is by far the dominant playstyle simply because it's just better than everything else. Slowing PPC projectiles makes it harder to do it well which serves as a relative buff to other playstyles, such as brawling.

Jman5, on 29 July 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

That's why I'm in favor of ghost heat as an alternative option.

.... I dearly wish I could say to this, "said no one ever."

Ghost heat is an atrocity that we definitely don't need more of.

[Yokaiko]

Zack Esseth, on 29 July 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

New mechanic, I can see that. Slowing down PPCs, the heat is already bad with them. This is fine and all but its going to hurt mechs that just got nerfed more than they already are hurting and the Dire Wolf will just be an Ultra 5 boat. The Victors and Highlanders have gotten it hard with the last jump jet change. I almost don't see Highlanders anymore.

I never see Victor's with guass anymore anyway, dual 5s, 9/10 times, you see Phracts with PPC + AC10....clans are using the guass because the spread from UACs is pretty bad so you don't get a lot of choice.

[Gyrok]

Jman5, on 29 July 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

The devil you know.

Either way, both ghost heat and a slower ppc projectile speed would desync ppc from Gauss. However, slowing down the ppc projectile would interfere with other builds that aren't really a problem. That's why I'm in favor of ghost heat as an alternative option.

The speed he tossed out was heavy handed, however, something more reasonable would likely work just as well...as I said above...

Though, honestly, Standard PPCs are a bit OP, honestly...they run too cool as it sits. The ERPPCs are hot as sin, I will give you that, but they could still be slowed down a notch or 2 and be fine. Honestly...people defend PPCs, however, they have always been something of an outlier on their own, and I always felt the charge up for the Gauss should have gone on PPCs.

The Gauss is just guilty by proxy, because it ends up FOTM for a while run with PPCs, and it is naturally cooler than other ballistics, but the issue still remains, PPCs are THE long range PP FLD energy weapon, and FAR more mechs can mount PPCs (arguably many that should not be able to do so...) than Gauss rifles. Plus, Gauss is the only weapon that explodes when destroyed, it is also the only weapon with a charge mechanic, and it also has the lowest DPS of any ballistic weapon by a wide margin.

PPCs could stand a tone down...sorry guys.

[Andross the Mad]

Both of these seem needlessly complicated. Find something else.

Nauht, on 29 July 2014 - 04:07 PM, said:

No to both.

We already pay for the weapon combo in weight and heat.
Those that keep getting slammed by the PPC/GR combo are the ones that keep presenting themselves as targets.... they just want an easy mode to lumber in to alpha.

But if you must have one then nerf the combo - single weapon nerfs a definite no-no as it affects that weapon for all mechs that use it in different customisations. Single PPC users will be penalised and when they realise that PPCs suck, will just be pigeon-holed into even more cookie cutter laser builds.

No to further dumbing down of this game to cater for the lowest skillset.

I don't think the meta build would be the meta build if the only people that have trouble dealing with it are those standing in the open and not twisting. Generally I see the meta build being the mechanically best weapon combo per mech chassis, and in this case I think PGI feels that this choice is just too good to be maintained, so they're trying to open up the builds to more of the weapon types...in the most complicated least player friendly way.

[juxstapo]

Through 90% of Paul's tweaks I've had a deliberate "wait and see" attitude...

but this is really absurd

[TheMagician]

if PGI wants to go this route, I encourage that they stop chasing the latest meta, and implement an entirely new system. We've been suggesting it for 2 years as a way to address these issues. One possibility is to add a 'power/energy' system. Each weapon takes a certain amount of energy. The energy regenerates over-time. Thus, you can no more fire 6 medium lasers and then 6 more, than you'd be able to fire 2 erppc, 2 gauss at once. You just wouldn't have the firepower to do so, or if you go over, you'd risk damage to your systems (similar to overheating). This would be a fairly easy system to implement, and one that would be simple for players to learn but difficult to master. Currently, the more strange mechanics you add, the greater barrier to entry you will find for the game.

Another possibility, and one I don't necessarily want, but that will address things, is to switch to a cone of fire. The cone expands as you move, greater as you jump, and each weapon affects the cone when fired (akin to spray, but since that would seemingly just encourage big weapons, an AC20 would automatically have a bigger cone when fired than a single medium laser). The cone would instantly go to the actual size when a shot is made, which would give players instant feedback, and quickly they'd get used to the system and how many weapons they can fire at once (or the type of weapons) to maintain reasonable accuracy. This would cause weapon damage to sufficiently spread, but would still encourage aim, as while there is an RNG factor to a cone of fire, you reduce its impact by aiming in the most advantageous position, as well as effectively managing your firing.

Edited by TheMagician, 29 July 2014 - 04:54 PM.

[Blackie Flawless]

No thank you.

[DeathlyEyes]

This will not solve the issue at its core.

Stop beating around the bush. The prevalence of jump sniping is a mixture of three things.

1. Poor in game communication. This means doing a push with brawlers is near on impossible without using a 3rd party program such as teamspeak. The team sitting back will always have the advantage since the enemies will flow in rather than move in together.

2. Poor map design. Most of the maps cater to jump sniping as they lack proper paths through them for brawlers. The maps are also often too small to sneak up on a group of jump snipers. Often times sniper nests are near the one "sneaky" way around them. For example the "sneaky" way to get behind a team on forest colony is through the cave. Unfortunately the sniper nests are right near it and any movement can quickly be noticed by a mech using seismic sensor and appropriate measures can be taken to wipe out any push through the cave.

3. Terrible terrain movement mechanics. Currently the hills steep enough to use as cover from LRM boats cannot be climbed. This means a mech cannot pop in and out of cover by "humping the hill." This also limits brawlers since brawlers have to often take longer paths to avoid a hill that mechs should probably be able to climb. Increasing the pitch a hill a mech can climb to 60% would go a long way to solving this issue.


Increasing the recycle rate of the ppc's might help the issue but these weird mechanics are treating the symptoms not the problem.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 29 July 2014 - 04:57 PM.

[panicbutton]

Asmudius Heng, on 29 July 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

Overly complex system just like ghost heat.

I would be better if you had two systems in the game.

HEAT: This as it is limits high alpha high heat builds, but mostly also tends to limit DPS via heat as heat goes up for nearly every weapon and takes a long time to cool down. This works ok, but many would simply prefer a lower heat cap and higher dissipation. This was not done it seems due to heat neutral builds and 3 second jenners or something.

So instead, leave heat as it is but to encourage a mix of weapons ad stop the high pinpoint alpahs of large weapons or many smaller weapons bolted together you get RID of Ghost heat and other mechanics and add one new one.

ENERGY: Have a green or blue bar like heat that you draw into when firing. Energy is replenished VERY quickly, but every weapon now has an energy rating. Now when you fire a group of weapons you take energy to fire them, too much energy and your weapons do no fire until energy is replenished which happens within a second or so.
PPCs and Gauss rifles would be energy heavy and so would be hard to fire together, as would stacked energy weapons. ACs might have a lower draw because they rely of propellants not reactor energy.

This would function mu like ghost heat but it would simply stop people from firing too many weapons at the same time rather than punish them without much warning. It becomes visible an players can SEE how it effects the game when building a mech.

So now you have 2 systems for 2 different purposes.

HEAT - To limit DPS by heat buildup
ENERGY - To limit high alphas

Together a pilot must manage these systems and find a middle ground or be willing to ride one or the other or both if they can handle it.

Now we have an interesting mechanic when building a mech, and when on the battlefield that eliminates the need for ghost heat.

You can add modules and quirks to modify energy now should it remain balanced too.

I literally just detailed this as a potential alternative to my team. I think that a 'mech would be built with the intention of firing all of its weapons systems at the same time. I hate putting "hard limit" on things e.g. "you CANT fire x, y, and z weapons at the same time". "Soft limits", e.g. "You could fire x, y, and z, but your movement speed will drop, you cant fire again for 'U' seconds, and/or you will take some damage." are acceptable, but whether or not ghost heat is a soft or hard limit is debatable since you probably can't shoot more than 5 ppcs without blowing yourself up. Implementing something akin to an "energy" system where you have capacitors/batteries/energy banks on your battlemech which charge and are discharged by firing weapons/jjs/whatever could potentially provide a solution to the number of "high alpha" ppcs+gauss builds and the removal of the sometimes controversial ghost heat bandage. Mechs which mount large numbers of lasers could be allowed to alpha several times before requiring a minute to build back up energy reserves. One might suspect that a fusion reactor wouldn't put out enough power continuously to support continuous alpha strikes from large quantities of energy driven weapons once whatever onboard power storage units are depleted.

There are a number of options for balance provided by a new system like this, and, as opposed to a hard limit, the number of weapons systems usable would be determined by pilot skill.

Edited by panicbutton, 29 July 2014 - 04:59 PM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

I like both solutions, as it stands, if two players have a combined ping of 250, you don't even see the PPC fired before it hits you (within its long range). And the charging mechanic is a good way to break up direct damage and encourage weapon diversity. I expect to see Gauss + PPC + AC + 2x LL.

Add them both and see who whines loudest.

[DeathlyEyes]

TheMagician, on 29 July 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

Another possibility, and one I don't necessarily want, but that will address things, is to switch to a cone of fire. The cone expands as you move, greater as you jump, and each weapon affects the cone when fired (akin to spray, but since that would seemingly just encourage big weapons, an AC20 would automatically have a bigger cone when fired than a single medium laser). The cone would instantly go to the actual size when a shot is made, which would give players instant feedback, and quickly they'd get used to the system and how many weapons they can fire at once (or the type of weapons) to maintain reasonable accuracy. This would cause weapon damage to sufficiently spread, but would still encourage aim, as while there is an RNG factor to a cone of fire, you reduce its impact by aiming in the most advantageous position, as well as effectively managing your firing.

An alternative to cone of fire is just increasing armor values even more.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 29 July 2014 - 05:06 PM.

[Yokaiko]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 29 July 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

An alternative to cone of fire is just increasing armor values even more.

Which places an even higher value on pin point damage.

[Mcgral18]

Here's an idea....why don't we NOT make the long range weapons have the same cooldown as short range weapons?

If an SRM4 could fire twice in the same span the Gauss or PPC could fire in one, that could make a difference. As it stands, the majority of long range weapons handle fine up close, and deal the optimal damage, which is the PP FLD.

Try 5 seconds for Gauss and 6 seconds for PPCs. Just 1 and 2 seconds won't hurt very much.

[Mawai]

Well the response saying it is a terrible idea has more likes than the original post.

Given how little of the feedback regarding the module system changes was actually listened to or received a response I am not hopeful that any feedback in this thread will be any more effective. However, on the off chance that someone is listening ... here is some feedback.

(Well I completely re-wrote the following since the original was a bit too caustic ).

The problem you are trying to fix is high pinpoint alpha. It will always be the most effective way to do damage. AC40, quad AC5, PPC/Gauss. Ghost heat was introduced to discourage people from firing groups of similar weapons together. What do they do? They find groups of dissimilar weapons that can be equally effective.


So what are some design options .. you have covered two in your post ...

Here is a list of more options (off the top of my head in the last 10 minutes).

1) Limit weapon fire to one weapon at a time .. all of your problems with high pinpoint alpha go away ... unfortunately I suspect most of your players go away too.

2) Have you considered dynamic weapon convergence? There is even a mech efficiency that currently does nothing that is supposed to reduce the time for convergence. Obviously it was considered at some point. Maybe it is time to reconsider it.

3) Ghost heat. The mechanism is already in the game and people are familiar with it. Any time a gauss fires within the Ghost heat window of a PPC ... multiply the PPC heat generated by some factor ... say 2. So a 2xPPC+gauss would then generate twice the heat it does currently. Or if you really want to nerf it use 10x ... at least the players can still use whatever weapon combination they like ... it will just be less efficient. (Use whatever physics justification you came up with for ghost heat in the first place)

4) Weird PPC/Gauss fire mechanic as you explained ... how do edge cases work? This suggestion will be more difficult for less experienced players to master.
- ppc/gauss/ppc/gauss fired at 0.25 second intervals using a macro
- ppc/2xgauss/ppc
- ppc+gauss/ppc+gauss


5) Change the PPC speed. This is probably by far the easiest change to make.I have no idea why you would go for 4 when you could do 2,3, 5 or 6. At the very least this one is easy to understand and easy to test. Of course, it doesn't change the effectiveness at close range and it may make PPC more effective when combined with other AC and closer ranges but if you make the change in 4 this is what will happen anyway ... more AC10/AC20 + 2 PPC combinations - The Jager can already do the 2xPPC + 2xAC5 (maybe AC10 ... haven't tied it) combination if it wants to ... which is only 5 damage short of the 2xPPC + Gauss.

6) PPC splash damage. You already do this for C-ERPPC. Do the same for IS. 5 damage to central part and 2.5 damage to adjacent sections ( or 6/2/2 or something else). Totally reduces the pinpoint alpha issue of all PPC based combinations.

7) Redesign the entire weapon damage system so that each weapon does TT dps every 10 seconds rather than starting from damage and heat values from TT and arbitrarily changing rate of fire. Go back to standard armor and structure values. I started in closed beta in June or July and the weapon values then aren't much different from those in use today. There were many missed opportunities to try out alternate systems. The current system has lead to the current meta game ... maybe it is time to rework the numbers from the ground up given the improvements in netcode, HSR and hit registration.


----

There are so many design decisions you can make to address this issue ... I've only listed a few ... why don't you put up a poll? (Ah that's right ... you probably aren't listening anyway ).

Also ... I would like to point out that given the number of founders who are still here, still playing the game, still care ... I don't think there were very many of us who were burned out in closed beta