1263 replies to this topic

[Greyboots]

Let the madness ensue....

As much as the current state of affairs annoys the crap out of me, I still think these are bad ideas.

As for slowing PPC projectiles: no. PPCs are one of the main ways to combat these mechs. Slowing PPC projectiles would make it harder to get rid of them so no.

You know what makes this so bad? The ridiculously severe PPC nerfs. Kind of ironic really. The best way to combat these mechs is smaller, more mobile mechs with decent weaponry. The "go to" weapon for this job would be the PPC. Light enough to arm a couple of medium mechs sufficiently to sit at a range which is difficult to hit while lobbing PPC fire at a much larger and slower target.

Exactly how I used to kill 6xPPC stalkers with 2 ERPPCs on a blackjack. Stay at 800ish meters so I'm as small as possible, keep on the move, firing 2 PPCs to their 6. I hit a LOT more often and was outside the 750m range for TAG to pick me up for the LRM boats. I had plenty of time to break LoS against incoming missiles and make them miss.

Now? ERPPCs have been nerfed into oblivion, JJ changes gimped the mobility even more. It's no longer a viable tactic. What do I do now? Sit at 700m in an ECM light with a TAG and let the LRM guys do the heavy lifting.

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[color=#00FFFF]One of the other solutions I've been looking at is slowing down the PPC projectile. What this gains is the ability of a target 'Mech to spread incoming damage more effectively by twisting its torso out of the line of fire. The number I've been toying with is 750m/s for PPCs and 850m/s ERPPCs(IS and Clan). Now if you're wondering what the current speed is, it is 1500m/s. So yes... that is a 50% decrease in projectile speed for PPCs.

[/color]

You're kidding, right? First of all, twisting your torso means you won't be firing back nearly as often. This means you have to have alpha strike mechs to combat alpha strike mechs. Isn't this what you are trying to GET AWAY FORM?

Additionally, it's not only these mechs I've gotta close in on... It's them AND THEIR TEAM MATES... These sorts of comments coming from a Dev are VERY worrying because this is not a 1 Vs 1 game.

I actually opened my wallet over the weekend just gone after having it closed for months. Now I'm beginning to regret that decision.

[DeathlyEyes]

Yokaiko, on 29 July 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

If I need 5 times the amount of time DPSing a target than I do just blowing off a side torso, that is not the case. This is the root of "clan balance" with the longer laser burns and burst fire ACs.

With a longer PPC recycle time and more armor you can close to range and absolutely wreck a mech that is using PPCS. Hell my unit has been wrecking meta lately using SRMs already even with bad terrain movement and bad map design.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 29 July 2014 - 05:22 PM.

[NullZeal]

We need to stop nerfing the Gauss and PPC / ER PPC's and start buffing everything (except missiles, I think that they are fine but that's just me) else so more people start using other more effective weapon loadouts for balancing heat and fire power. and also I know its not lore but we need a power meter in the HUD to show how much power the mechs engine has available so the pilot can give it (balance it) to speed, firepower, and heat.

Edited by NullZeal, 29 July 2014 - 05:25 PM.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

LOL


I knew Paul was awful at his job...

...but I never knew he was this immensely daft.


He is attempting to break more weapons and ultmately fun because he fails to get to the CORE of the issues.

Pin point front loaded damage.

Fix convergence with some type of alpha strike accuracy penalty and everything is solved.


But no, lets keep on with ghost heat and weapon nerfes, etc.




There is no way this post can be serious, I refuse to believe this team (and person in charge of weapon/equipment balance) is that obtuse.

[Seth]

I don't think it's fair to hurt every build that utilizes PPCs because of three 'Mechs that can take advantage of 2PPC/Gauss combos. Of the two options given, I prefer the one that limits how many Gauss and PPC weapons that can be fired together. Just put more effort into explaining it than a yellow triangle in the Mechlab.

Homeless Bill, on 29 July 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

I'm begging you to consider something like this. A hurricane of bandaids has done half of what a serious effort to tackle front-loaded damage could do, and you'd have the added benefit of having another way to balance over/under-performing variants.

X2. If MechWarrior 2 can do it, I can only assume a game in 2014 can do it better. Pinpoint damage is ultimately the root of all evil in this game and what brought about the ghost heat system. Don't let it be the cause of another complicated fix.

[Goldhawk]

No more weapon changes! I'm sorry, I've lived through too many weapon changes, and LEAVE THE GAUSS and PPC alone. Normally I do not use caps but I'm tired of each weapon getting over tweaked and eventually getting rebuffed.

[Yokaiko]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 29 July 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

With a longer PPC recycle time and more armor you can close to range and absolutely wreck a mech that is using PPCS. Hell my unit has been wrecking meta lately using SRMs already even with bad terrain movement and bad map design.

I agree my best Timber is actually dual ER-PPCs and quad SRMs, no JJs

[Goldhawk]

We are NOT going back to MW2. With the ball lightning.

[SpiralFace]

I like both of these ideas' Niko, but I honestly don't think they should be the first ones explored at this point.

I have no problem with Gauss PPC being a "potent" combo weapon synergy. The opinion that I share is the one that many others have voiced in saying that the biggest issue with PPC gauss isn't the fact that its potent as a one time hit, but that it can keep those hits coming at a rate that is similar to many other weapon builds in the game. Which means that it can not just keep pace in the effective dps of the frame, but also have the added bonus of pin point damage added on top of it.

I would like to see a 1- 2 second cool down increased to the PPC to slot the weapon into more of a support / long range role then to add an extra layer of complexity to track in addition to everything that is going on.

This will keep the combo potent as a one time hit combo, but should curb the overall DPS of the frames down a bit so these combos would accel at long range as they do now, but they wouldn't be able to keep pace with brawling weapons up close. Which is currently the bigger problem is that this build is effective at all ranges. Not the pin point damage itself.

If mounting these weapons opened up attack windows to punish up close, I think it would do more for not just the gauss PPC combo, but also the overall role of the PPC itself in this game, which currently is the most versitile weapon in the game at the moment due to it being both good at long range and in a brawl.

I'm open to the suggested ideas that have been presented here. But I feel like a simpler solution to give the PPC a more defined role rather then shoe horn a handful of builds would do much more for the game.

If it did come to the options presented here, I personally like the "energy draw" option, but if the projectile speed version is chosen, I would prefer a modified version of the projectile speed option:

I'm not the biggest fan of the slowing down of projectile speed is mostly because I feel that doing so would hurt the PPC and the ER PPC as a long range weapon option.

When a mech has only laser hard points, the PPC / ER PPC are some of their most solid long range weapon options, and the PPC itself is meat as a long range support weapon. Bringing down their projectile speed to bring in their accuracy at range I feel is the wrong move when this is literally one of the only options next to the ER LL for a ranged energy option in the game.

A better solution would be to "split the difference" by only marginally decreasing the PPC speed so it still remains effective at range, but INCREASING the Gauss rifle shot even faster then it currently is. This should hopefully give you the desync you need without removing the PPC as a ranged weapon option (especially if people are equipping the high heat ER version. )

[Shakespeare]

I strongly prefer the 'energy depletion' solution, and would, in fact, like an on-screen indication of this energy draw system, if/when implemented. It would need to be an above-board, easily interpreted system, not one that we have to dig around for on forums and patch notes to understand. I like it as stated.

This solution preserves the impact of the weapon systems when used solo. PPCs don't need any more nerfs. Further, treating the mech weapon 'capacitor' as finite would also allow for more tweaking of the gauss charge mechanic on its own - again, without affecting users of PPCs or combinations.

[Scratx]

Okay... Let's see.

Dropping speed to half on the PPC/ERPPC will sync them with AC10/20. That's trading one problem for another. Moreover, it makes PPC/ERPPC far less usable for long-range combat. The obvious outcome of this is a mass migration to ER Large Lasers for energy snipers.

Somehow, I don't think that's ideal, either. Plus, it punishes a lot of mech builds that were never a problem.

The charging solution on the other hand does seem to attack the problem head-on, but I am not sure if it will work as well as hoped for. I'd far prefer to try that one out over having the PPC speed nerfed, though.


I should point out that ghost heat could be used to combat this, too, though. By linking gauss and ppcs. It wouldn't prevent people from firing, but it would punish them for doing so. Probably doesn't save certain mechs from being obliterated if fully hit, though.

And... that energy idea that's being floated around is worth looking into, too.


Finally, may I suggest that if heat threshold goes over 200% or so the overheating mech instantly explodes before the weapons fire?

[HBizzle]

What a horrible idea. So you really want to turn the game into LWO, LRM Warrior Online.

[TercieI]

Well, seven pages of us all telling Paul he's wrong and proposing alternative and less awkward solutions.

Shame on us, we've guaranteed this to happen now.

[John1352]

Just do this: http://mwomercs.com/...-of-ghost-heat/

The Gauss rifle will get an advantage from this, but it will make a huge difference to PPC based alphas, and that 2 ERPPC 2 Gauss DWF will overheat in one alpha.

It is the best solution, and will add a lot of fun to the game, despite the inevitable initial whinging.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I prefer the first solution to the second.

That said, I'd rather PGI simply short-circuit the entire problem. There are a few ways to do that, ideally combining all of them:

1 - Implement PPC damage arcing for all PPCs. Shift the cERPPC to 9/3/3, and the ERPPC and PPC to 6/2/2. [This drastically reduces the pain of a PPC/Other combo volley, without necessarily losing any damage, simply spreading it out.]

2 - Increase the cooldown of the PPC/ERPPC to 5s, and the Gauss to 6. Remove the Gauss charge mechanic. The 2-Gauss limit can remain. [This reduces the effectiveness of both weapons in a brawl without signifcantly impacting their long-range punch, while making the Gauss much easier to use; IMO the pre-existing fragility and exposiveness of the Gauss are sufficient to balance it without requiring a charge mechanic.]

3 - Implement Dynamic Precision Reduction, based on heat %, throttle %, and stability state. [This is mostly for the PPC/ERPPC/cERPPC, but would be an overall improvement in balance across the board.]

4 - Implement Koniving's Variant-based armor rework. [Many, if not most, of the strongest PPC/Other variants have weaker stock armor than other variants. This rework would allow variants that should have better armor in exchange for their lower firepower/mobility to retain that advantage, which our current system eliminates. PPC/Other variants would pay for their firepower by being noticeably more fragile than their competitors.]

[DeathlyEyes]

mwhighlander, on 29 July 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

LOL


I knew Paul was awful at his job...

...but I never knew he was this immensely daft.


He is attempting to break more weapons and ultmately fun because he fails to get to the CORE of the issues.

Pin point front loaded damage.

Fix convergence with some type of alpha strike accuracy penalty and everything is solved.


But no, lets keep on with ghost heat and weapon nerfes, etc.




There is no way this post can be serious, I refuse to believe this team (and person in charge of weapon/equipment balance) is that obtuse.

Can we start a Kickstarter to pay PGI to pay someone else to do Paul's job since he clearly cannot be removed. No matter how many times he messes up his job is safe.

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  Launch module failure.
  
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  UI 2.0
  
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  Convergence leading to certain chassis being better than others.
  
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  Underpowered Lasers. This issue is rather complex. My point of view is that because lasers have such long duration, other weapons with front loaded damage are far better. Mechs using AC+PPC+Gauss don't need to expose themselves for as long as laser mechs. Shortening this duration could solve this. This is just my personal take to the situation and my solution. There are others. I am just trying to point out that this issue exists.
  
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  Overpowered Artillery+Air strikes.
  
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  Ghost Heat
  
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  LRMageddon 1+2
  
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  Underpowered SRMs
  
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  Hill Climb mechanic making jump capable mechs nearly a necessity.
  
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  Cool Shots
  
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  3rd Person
  
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  LRM vs ECM, narc (no longer falls off with damage getting narc'd on caustic is a near death sentence), tag, target decay, target decay module vs radar deprivation module.
  
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  UAC buff and then subsequent nerf. Coincidentally mechs taking advantage of UACs were on sale at the time.
  
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  The shift from 8 to 12 man queue. This created performance issues, and decreased time to kill by creating massive balls of death.
  
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  New spawns leading to more PUGs running in to their death by themselves.
  
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  No respawn game option for casual play.
  
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  Turrets preventing movement on small maps such as River City and Caustic Valley.
  
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  Poorly designed maps. Alpine has no way for brawlers to move around. Other maps are designed in a way that only a few paths exist (Tera Therma).
  
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  Maps too small for the current player count.
  
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  Many near useless chassis, at least at higher competitive levels. This is because there is no battle value feature. Not all tonnage is created equal. This is also requiring the clans to be balanced in ways they shouldn't.
  
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  Clan lasers are less accurate than Inner Sphere lasers (longer duration)
  
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  Instead of solving the DPS issue of the Gauss rifle a charge mechanic was added to it making the weapon harder to use by newer players. Experienced players have no problem syncing ppc and gauss. A better mechanic would have been to simply increase the recycle duration.
  
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  Lack of any tutorial until very recently

Plus tons of other things and now this..... Though to be fair the clans were balanced some how. I wouldn't be surprised if someone else made the balancing decisions for them though.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 29 July 2014 - 05:37 PM.

[Deathsani]

I have returned to the forums to say that the projectile speed change to the PPC might help, but it won't prevent future abuses with other weapon combinations.

I really like homeless bill's solution and I think it warrants your attention and a response as to why you aren't investigation better options. You are constantly fixing your fixes without looking at the bigger problem.

[MischiefSC]

100% on board with these changws.

[Yokaiko]

MischiefSC, on 29 July 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

100% on board with these changws.

Yeah, I look forward to be able to watch a mech with PPCs fire at me and actually move out of the way.

[Vanguard319]

Adiuvo, on 29 July 2014 - 04:10 PM, said:

This is a Mechwarrior game. Where you can aim. This is not Battletech tabletop, where you roll dice. If you want that experience, go play Megamek.

Just because it's a tabletop rule does not mean it should not be implemented. It would do more to fix the pinpoint problem than any of these overly complex and ultimately ****** nerfs that PGI has implemented.