1258 replies to this topic

[Daehoth]

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 30 July 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

How about this... People crying over PPFLD... Fine... What ever... I don't even see why it's such a problem. No mech gets 1 shotted by gauss 2x ppc anymore unless its a head shot or a rear shot... But that's because people skimp on armor to those locations.

"What if you were damaged already?" You say? Pfft what ever, this is a shooter game. It comes with the genre. Why not just make a seperate game mode for carebears?

Carebear mode: no one can take more then 20 damage to a specific location every .5 seconds. You cannot hit the head. And no one can take more then 40 damage total every 2 seconds. This affects all incoming damage from all enemy players. That way those players can be the invincible juggernauts they want to be, playing their 15 minute games... Hell, extend the game time to an hour so people can run around and frolick in the wind in their super robot battles.

Allow me to follow up on Aleksandr's brilliant post.

I'll go one better.....turn on GOD mode for EVERYONE ......FOREVER. Let's all be lovey dovey with each other. Nobody dies in-game! We can continue to fire LRMS, gauss, ac/20's at each other but it's just really firing cotton balls at each other.

Let's just turn this game into a snooze fest. That'll make EVERYONE happy. Yayyyyy.

"Everything is awesome!"

Edited by Daehoth, 30 July 2014 - 07:22 PM.

[xDAMAGEx]

It seems to me that since were finally getting technical about these high energy weapons and how they are used lets look at a whole other factor ENGINE SIZE.

Simply put the Gauss rifle and PPC/ER PPC require a certain amount of energy to be fired and in the case of the each weapon they can be limited simply by the engine in the mech.

First up the Gauss Rifle

The Gauss rifle fires once all the capacitors have been charged so the smaller the engine the longer the charge time should be since the engine can only put out soo much juice to charge the capacitor(s), so something with an 400 engine can charge a single Gauss rifle quicker than a 300 engine and in the case of charging two or more Gauss rifles at the same time, the charge time simply increases based off of the Engine (this also allows certain mechs to be given quirks to affect this as well. Like with the Awesome.. which is Awesome again.)

The PPC / ER PPC

In the case of the PPC/ER PPC engine size would determine

1) if a it can even fire a PPC.. i.e. a minimum engine class would be required to fire a single ppc (because of the needed energy) so lighter mechs couldn't mount them to begin with (but don't worry there is hope read on) and

2) depending on engine size it would also limit the amount of PPC's or ER PPC's that could be fired at once (this stops high alpha builds without the need of ghost heat) since PPC's and ER PPC's have different energy requirement they would also have ratings so if one engine can fire 2 ppc's that same engine size wont be able to fire 2 er ppc's

SInce both of these weapons were made for the heavier mechs anyway they should be limited to those classes and restricted by the power needed by engines to actually use them.

In the case of lighter mechs and mediums, the lore has dealt with that with smaller ppc's and lighter guass rifles etc specially made just for those classes the would require less energy to use but have their own draw backs (weight, size, heat, damage, range, political affiliation etc)

And i guess that would mean that you could have heavy guass and heavy ppc's etc as long as you're lugging around a big enough engine.

More weapons = more variety = more fun

I respect what they are trying to do with the weapons, i never saw meta in the lore and it shouldn't be here, it's called Mechwarrior not Metawarrior

[FireDog]

Bad idea to slow PPC fire.... Its slow enough already. One can already side step the energy balls when one sees it getting fired from range. Also at range with PPCs you do have to lead a moving target with lead times much longer than the Gauss bolt.

As for charge for Gauss and PPC combos... if you go that route you had better take into account the engine size(power output), mech weight, movement speed, other weapons firing, anything that utilizes the power output of the mech. Also since firing the gauss mostly uses the charge off the capacitors it really should not effect other weapons firing at the same time but later when the capacitor are charging.

If you have to do something, you could take the simple suggestion above, linking Gauss with PPCs for ghost heat. Maybe you can say pulling that much current across the mech's power distribution net to the PPC and Gauss Capacitors will heat up the power leads and thereby the mech's internals.

Finally, the firing mechanic you describe is an overly complicated, with an addition learning curve and will get in the way of having fun. You have nerfed that enough already. Seriously, Please stop nerfing everything before you destroy this game and all its potential.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Daehoth, on 30 July 2014 - 07:18 PM, said:

Allow me to follow up on Aleksandr's brilliant post.

I'll go one better.....turn on GOD mode for EVERYONE ......FOREVER. Let's all be lovey dovey with each other. Nobody dies! We can continue to fire LRMS, gauss, ac/20's at each other but it's just really firing cotton balls at each other.

Let's just turn this game into a snooze fest. That'll make EVERYONE happy. Yayyyyy.

"Everything is awesome!"

How about add Computer controlled bots that move, dodge and shoot just like they currently do in training mode? That would make it even more awesome! I'm sure people hate that they don't get cbills and pilot xp from the game mode: training grounds.

[Gyrok]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 30 July 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

Are you dense?

Do you not understand how chain firing would INCREASE usage of multiple weapons types?

Here is what happens with enforced chain firing.

You might load up 2 PPC's for long range. You'll be able to fire one, then another while the latter cycles it's cool down.

You will also load some SRM's, due to forced chain firing, you don't have to worry that SRMs and PPC's use completely different delivery mechanisms. When someone gets close, you stop using the PPCs and start using the SRMs.

Then you might have a few mediums lasers which you can use while the SRMs are cooling down.

3 different weapons types, that don't work together at all in the current game. If you enforce chain firing, these weapons are all usable together and it requires MUCH more skill than currently.

If you enforce chain firing for LRMs, it makes them OBSCENELY more susceptible to AMS, but I guess you don't know enough to know that?

That sounds like a completely horrible solution to a problem. Honestly...this is not...please-stand-still-while-I-shoot-you-with-one-weapon-at-a-time-in-big-stompy-robots-online.

This is mechwarrior...

Slow the PPC projectile down, I think nearly everyone in the comp community agrees it is one of the roots of the problem. It takes more skill to lead an enemy with a slower projectile at range and that will make the "SKILLWARRIORONLINE" guys happy because now they can flex their uberl33t sn1p3r sk1llz by showing how well they can lead a target. It would solve the issue with Gauss/PPC syncing as closely as it does, and so what if it syncs with AC10...? AC10 has much less range and is 3 times hotter than the Gauss rifle to start with.

Those of you talking about AC20 + PPCs, let me ask you a question...why would you get within 300m of that mech when you can hit it back with your ERPPC sniper spider from 500m+?

That is the gist of the argument right? Nerfing PPC velocity will somehow nerf lights that "NEED" to carry a PPC? Learn to aim, same as everyone else...or, heaven forbid, run a decent light build...

Problem solved...

[Daehoth]

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 30 July 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:

How about add Computer controlled bots that move, dodge and shoot just like they currently do in training mode? That would make it even more awesome! I'm sure people hate that they don't get cbills and pilot xp from the game mode: training grounds.

Yea yea...awesome idea. let's do that, let's do that PGI....

Weeeeeeee

[Deadeye254]

If you have to do one of the nerfs go with the 1st but I do not like either PPC that moves750 is just lame.

[Sandpit]

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 30 July 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

How about this... People crying over PPFLD... Fine... What ever... I don't even see why it's such a problem. No mech gets 1 shotted by gauss 2x ppc anymore unless its a head shot or a rear shot... But that's because people skimp on armor to those locations.

"What if you were damaged already?" You say? Pfft what ever, this is a shooter game. It comes with the genre. Why not just make a seperate game mode for carebears?

Carebear mode: no one can take more then 20 damage to a specific location every .5 seconds. You cannot hit the head. And no one can take more then 40 damage total every 2 seconds. This affects all incoming damage from all enemy players. That way those players can be the invincible juggernauts they want to be, playing their 15 minute games... Hell, extend the game time to an hour so people can run around and frolick in the wind in their super robot battles.

http://mwomercs.com/...-salvage-oh-my/
plus a few other threads I've posted in and started

I agree 100%, I'm hoping that we can get enough support for some of the ideas myself and many others have kicked around to make CW the "hard" mode so the people who are looking for the "pew pew dakka dakka shoot die die die" play style can enjoy the game without those wanting a deeper sim style game getting shafted

Deadeye254, on 30 July 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

If you have to do one of the nerfs go with the 1st but I do not like either PPC that moves750 is just lame.

Please PGI, pay attention. Notice how it's not "i like this idea" it's "If i had to choose one of the two ideas presented"

This simply is not the best way to deal with this issue

[Kjudoon]

Two public service announcements:

"Just say no to weapon combos"

and

"Only you can prevent weapon combos."


Seriously if I wanted an X+X+Y+X+Y+Z+ UP + Down style of play, I'd have bought Mortal Combat variants.

This is too complex, I agree.

[Zordicron]

Well,

I would pick the first one, because it would affect exactly one of my 110 mech loadouts, and I am planning on changing it anyway. So there's that, the I dont care because it wont affect me. PPC speed would, on lots of mechs, including mechs with just a single PPC and no ballistics tied to it, which means I find that solution cludgy. Well, both are in their own ways, but I dont like the speed change as it affects people that havent been grouping the weapon with gauss.

I guess in the end, leave PPC alone, if you want to restrict how they pair with gauss, fine I guess, make some weird trigger restrictions.

I would prefer something else though, probably anything that wouldnt really restrict.... heck make gauss burstfire. Pinpoint dmg solved, PPC's or not.
Increase gauss cooldown times further, then give them some little boost like increased ammo count per ton. Longer cooldown means player has to either not fire the PPC and wait for gauss to cooldown, reducing damage output, or will fire the ppc seperate of gauss anyway, and then the pinpoint dmg is also mitigated.

Really though, and I keep saying this, if you guys would just fix HSR, man, there are like 75% of other weapons that would do what PPC and gauss can for much less tonnage and dissadvantage(heat, slots, etc) but people dont use them because HSR ***** them over. Giant alpha strike with mega heat is at a disadvantage in any situation but sniping(or if it will finihs off the enemy, where then the heat wont matter) BUT it is the main go to style, because HSR crap affects it the least. All the info is sent in one packet, so odds of all of it getting lost is still there, but not as likely at all compared to the guy who is chainfireing stuff or using burstfire/LBX/missiles etc where the packets get dropped and 0-100% of the dmg from a given weapon dissapears.


FIX HSR, META CHANGES, SIMPLE AS THAT.

For example, PPC does 10 dmg. LL does 9 dmg.
PPC will do 100%, or 0% of its dmg depending on HSR, and as it is a single packet to transmit, odds are pretty good it will register.
LL is hitscan, multihit etc(to compare it to LBX cannons, misile clusters, etc) so, its dmg can potentially get split in packets, and HSR can say OOPS, and miss a packet, or get confused trying to apply it to a moving target, because the first 30% is when target is at location A, and then the last 70% is at location B, confusion for HSR if you still hit it, more calculations whatever. So now, LL isnt doing 9 dmg, even when held on target, for HSR reasons. So now, the balance of LL is MOOT, because players gets full heat from it, but not full dmg. Might not seem as bad on surface, however, in the long run, players will notice effectiveness over time in terms of reliability, and migrate to pinpoint single shot stuff. AC20 was in this boat also for a long time, for the same reason as PPC. All or nothing is a billion times better then sometimes most of it.

I mean look Paul, you keep revisiting the same weapons. Why? because when you guys adjust HSR, it throws a giant wrench into the balance again. BUT THE SAME THINGS ARE ALWAYS UNDERLYING. It is always the pinpoint FLD stuff, because it is the most reliable. Sure, it rewards excellent aim, but thats not what makes it the go to for most players. It is the reliability of the hit/dmg registering. People will say "PPC HSR is bad, I see missed hits all the time" but you know, its because it is more noticable, not because more frequent. Think about it, someone fires that LL, sees the crosshair red, "well it hit" even if 1% dmg applied.

So, make PPC/Gauss trigger stuff, FOR NOW. Make a big note, put it on top of your monitor on your desk " FIX HSR FOR GOOD --> REVISIT MY WEAPON GROUP RESTRICTIONS"

Even things like the ghost heat caps might need revision once lasers and missiles all do what they are supposed to. Yes, I know HSR is a *****. especially for people like me, with 300 ping. I live in WI, and have no other option for ISP. Do you really want to write me off as "sorry ping to high cant help you" ? I gave you guys hundreds of dollars so far, and really want to see the game do well, mechwarrior is one of my all time favorite series. HSR code needs to work for higher pings too, or you will never see the end of complaints about it(not just me lol ) I dont have the solution for HSR issues. Someone out there, some place does. You need to get IGP to look for that person, and hire them. Might be costly, it will be worth it. As I have said for a long time now, HSR dictates weapon balance, All dmg most of the time is much much better then some of the dmg all the time, and it has driven the meta to what it is now.

[R5D4]

Well the good news is the Dev team appears to have read Homeless Bills suggestion (as evidenced here)
The bad news is it seems to be dismissed without full understanding of what is being purposed; ot at least that's how I interpret the response that was received.

Sigh...

[wanderer]

Vlad Dragu, on 30 July 2014 - 06:03 PM, said:

Exactly! Let's get all this "canon" garbage off the table....."canon" this, "canon" that. Face it, when applying damage in TT from an AC, ALL DAMAGE FROM THAT AC WAS RESOLVED INTO ONE LOCATION.

Unless you fired it on rapid-fire or spread-shot mode, of course.



A single standard AC shot simply represents a compact enough burst that it only damages one location under normal circumstances. As you can see from the rulebook here, it's actually a burst of fire that if extended does indeed hit multiple locations, and can be sprayed across multiple targets as well.

Quote

That's right, I don't care about your "burst" fire Sarna arguments, it means nothing. Damage resolution affected one location.....AC's didn't spread their damage, didn't splash their damage, weren't MG's on steroids or whatever variant of whine you prefer.

Neither did lasers. You'll notice MWO had the sense NOT to make them pinpoint weapons that delivered everything to one spot instantly. Lesson learned from the hitscan MW4-era weapons, methinks. Sadly they didn't think to apply that lesson to damage delivery in general.

[Zuesacoatl]

People need to get off the convergence boat already. I want my shots to hit where I point my crosshairs at, not inside some rng cone of fire, that is just ludicrous.

Slow PPCs down a bit, just enough to desync them from the Gauss, but not enough to tie them in perfectly with another caliber AC. It is hard to keep weapon systems like these from becoming too powerful, but when you have people that are skilled enough to drop a PP weapon down range, they will take every advantage of that skill and weapon combination. I would personally like to see a short lived Lightning whip in place of the projectile, much like a laser, but with a shorter lived whip effect. This will keep it from being PP, keep the dmg, and maybe even drop the heat down a bit to make it a more viable weapon, but to bork with convergence at this time is just the wrong way to go in a skill based game like MWO. A cone of fire is more fit for CoD where you have no gear on to take into account the movement of your arms, the tromp of your feet etc. The mechs targeting computers should be able to handle it much like an Abrahams of today can.

[Kushko]

PPCs at 750m/s is a bad idea esp since it should be traveling at around a third of the speed of light (which btw is quite a bit more than 750m/s).

As for the general ideas what many of us have already suggested (some even in high detail to pretty much do all the work for you) but you keep ignoring so im not sure why im bothering, but:
Remove ghost heat, stop adding complicated backend mechanics with no UI representation and add a capacitor/energy bar on the UI. Make every weapon use X amount of energy and make that energy recharge within a second. That way if 2 PPCs+2Gauss are tried to be fired at once (all of which use a huge amount of power to activate) the energy bar would be drained by half of those weapons and players would have to wait that 0.5-1s before they had enough power to fire the rest. Problem solved...its simple, it has an UI representation thats not just random math in the background that players-especially new players have to pretty much guess at or eventually figure out why they're overheating so badly or how to work around it.

[DaemonWulfe]

Here's an idea, skill is OP. Develop a damage scale where the higher the ELO, the more damage is reduced. It's the only way to fix all of these problems.

We all know the better players will always come out on top, no matter what the FOTM is in terms of weapons and mechs. We've been watching this happen since, well, day 1. Why not just penalize players for good performance so the lower tier players can feel better?

On a serious note, just keep it simple. Make it so you cannot fire gauss and ppc at the same time. Some people are gonna be butt hurt, but some are already butt hurt, hence the reason why these changes are being proposed.

[Sandpit]

Zuesacoatl, on 30 July 2014 - 08:48 PM, said:

People need to get off the convergence boat already. I want my shots to hit where I point my crosshairs at, not inside some rng cone of fire, that is just ludicrous.

Slow PPCs down a bit, just enough to desync them from the Gauss, but not enough to tie them in perfectly with another caliber AC. It is hard to keep weapon systems like these from becoming too powerful, but when you have people that are skilled enough to drop a PP weapon down range, they will take every advantage of that skill and weapon combination. I would personally like to see a short lived Lightning whip in place of the projectile, much like a laser, but with a shorter lived whip effect. This will keep it from being PP, keep the dmg, and maybe even drop the heat down a bit to make it a more viable weapon, but to bork with convergence at this time is just the wrong way to go in a skill based game like MWO. A cone of fire is more fit for CoD where you have no gear on to take into account the movement of your arms, the tromp of your feet etc. The mechs targeting computers should be able to handle it much like an Abrahams of today can.

they would hit right where you wanted. it would just take them a split second longer to all converge together in one spot. problem solved. adjust the convergence speed until it finds a good balance. most importantly?
NOT
COMPLICATED

[Weztside]

All this is going to do is either alienate the hardcore players and Comp teams or shift the Meta into an even worse place than it is now. You really don't want LL Stalkers to make a comeback. Especially since C-ERLL are insanely powerful. Next thing you know Clans will be even better since they can boat ERLL like nothing else can. I forgot to mention that everyone will simply shift to duel gauss builds as well. You are simply going to piss a lot people off without actually effecting the meta.

[DaemonWulfe]

Weztside, on 30 July 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:

All this is going to do is either alienate the hardcore players and Comp teams or shift the Meta into an even worse place than it is now. You really don't want LL Stalkers to make a comeback. Especially since C-ERLL are insanely powerful. Next thing you know Clans will be even better since they can boat ERLL like nothing else can. I forgot to mention that everyone will simply shift to duel gauss builds as well. You are simply going to piss a lot people off without actually effecting the meta.

The comp teams are going to do good no matter how you chop it up. There are already a ton of players using dual gauss, myself included.

If you think ER lasers are a major threat at distance or up close, you need to learn how to move and shoot because you'll get fried or peppered to death by ALL weapons in the game.

[Sandpit]

Weztside, on 30 July 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:

You really don't want LL Stalkers to make a comeback. .

speak for yourself

[Kristov Kerensky]

You wanna do WHAT? And it's to fix a problem that exists where exactly?

I run a Dire with 2 gauss and 2 erppcs, along with other weapons, and it's not deadly because all 4 projectiles hit the same spot at the same time, because quite frankly they NEVER do that. It's deadly because my gauss rounds impact and the target JUST STANDS THERE until the erppcs impact. And usually still just stands there while I recharge everything and fire off another set of gauss and erppc rounds. It's not like the majority of the players TRY to avoid getting hit, they don't twist, they don't move around, they just stand there and point their guns in my direction and fire. Usually with weapons that have less than half the range I'm standing at, so they don't even hit me. I'm at 1k, they are firing medium lasers and SRMs at me, how terribly unbalanced THAT is right? So what's your next 'FIX' going to be, increase the ranges of those weapons or maybe kill the ranges of the gauss and erppcs? That would be right in line with these silly ideas you've presented, trying to fix a problem that isn't a problem you can fix, as it's a PLAYER ABILITY issue.

Seriously, you guys need to WATCH the majority of the players sometime, not look at the data but actually spectate the players as they play the game. I think you folks at PGI would start to seriously rethink some of the 'FIXES' you've put in if you actually watched the people playing and see what the REAL problem is, a lack of ability. I've watched people take a Mech with a gauss on it out and not use it because they hit the trigger and...nothing happened, hit it again, nothing happened, so they ignore it and figure it's a BUG! Great documentation on how gauss works btw. LRMs, do you guys have any idea how many people do NOT realize they can HIT things with LRMs if they have a lock? I've watched people fire thousands of rounds of LRMs without ever once hitting R, or worse, firing LRMs at target F while having target A as their target. People firing their Streaks at targets 800m out, same with SRMs, MGuns, ML, SL, you name it. MWO has a LOT of really inept/ignorant players(I'm being nice here) who simply don't have a clue what those silly numbers next to the weapon means or how the weapons work at all. They don't torso twist, they don't try to avoid incoming fire at all typically, and they just generally have no freaking idea what the hells is going on around them, they just know BIG STOMPY ROBOTS!

You've still got the blurbs up as adverts that this is a thinking man's shooter...you really should take that down because false advertising is illegal, and at the rate you guys are coming up with these 'FIXES', you soon won't be able to call this anything but CoD in an exoskeleton, not legally.

I'll be calling my CC company tomorrow about reversing the charges for my Diashi package, cause this sure as hells ain't the game I WAS willing to support with these knee jerk reaction 'FIXES' being tossed out.