1258 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

AH Osprey 02, on 01 August 2014 - 04:19 PM, said:

Hell we would be playing CW by now if they didn't have to tweak weapons all the time and hold everyone's hand every time someone cried that the game is to hard for them...

try adding on a year to the amount of time you've been dealing with it lol

[Yokaiko]

Sandpit, on 01 August 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

we don't know WHAT a ppc would look like as a weaponized cannon to be fair.

We do know that it would propagate at close to the speed of light. A particle (that is atom particle) cannon would be throwing balls raw atomic radiation, it ALL proagates are 99% of the speed of light 299,792,458m/s i.e. instantaneous, like a laser. 1200m/s, which is like 4000ft/sec, compared to a large bore rifle or cannon that are pretty much all right around 2500ft/sec (you start having to stage gunpowder charges to go faster than that)

I used to work in a hypervelocity gun lab and the .50cal could fire 7000m/s It need three stages to fire a sabot round weighed about 4 tons and was a solid 80feet long http://www.nasa.gov/...y/#.U9w8bPldVSI

Like I said, real physics, elsewhere.

Edited by Yokaiko, 01 August 2014 - 05:20 PM.

[Ward Serpentine]

PPC speeds could be lowered slightly, but that is too much. How about make the PPCs have to chain fire for multiples and that if you are carrying more than two (gauss or ppcs) that the recharge rate slows down? Only so much power available...

[Sandpit]

Yokaiko, on 01 August 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

We do know that it would propagate at close to the speed of light. A particle (that is atom particle) cannon would be throwing balls raw atomic radiation, it ALL proagates are 99% of the speed of light 299,792,458m/s i.e. instantaneous, like a laser. 1200m/s, which is like 4000ft/sec, compared to a large bore rifle or cannon that are pretty much all right around 2500ft/sec (you start having to stage gunpowder charges to go faster than that)

I used to work in a hypervelocity gun lab and the .50cal could fire 7000m/s It need three stages to fire a sabot round weighed about 4 tons and was a solid 80feet long http://www.nasa.gov/...y/#.U9w8bPldVSI

Like I said, real physics, elsewhere.

no you don't. you can theorize how it would work but you don't know how it would work.

[Mazzyplz]

DONT reduce the speed of the ppc. it will be impossible hitting light mechs with it, actually stop and think about all the possibilitied before you do it - hard as it may seem

[Yokaiko]

Sandpit, on 01 August 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

no you don't. you can theorize how it would work but you don't know how it would work.

Radiation with any sort of mass (read not a photon) propagates at relativistic speeds, that is as true for fission Gamma, X-Ray, electro-magnetic down to the current (electrons) in the wires of your PC.

Its how it is. You CAN'T really slow it down. You can focus, or shield it.

Edited by Yokaiko, 01 August 2014 - 06:23 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

by the way no the ppc wouldn't fly at light speed anyhow.
it would actually be firing clusters of tungsten isotopes charged up, which would have mass!!

"Tesla worked on plans for a directed-energy weapon between the early 1900s until the time of his death. Records of his device indicate that it was based on a narrow stream of atomic clusters of liquid mercury or tungsten accelerated via high voltage (by means akin to his magnifying transformer). Tesla gave the following description concerning the particle gun's operation:"

so the PPC actually fires atomic clusters of mercury or tungsten.
they could have mass so no lightspeed like laser shots

[Yokaiko]

Mazzyplz, on 01 August 2014 - 06:25 PM, said:

so the PPC actually fires atomic clusters of mercury or tungsten.
they could have mass so no lightspeed like laser shots

Boy just like I said.

Yokaiko, on 01 August 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

We do know that it would propagate at close to the speed of light. A particle (that is atom particle) cannon would be throwing balls raw atomic radiation, it ALL proagates are 99% of the speed of light 299,792,458m/s

On this page.

Edited by Yokaiko, 01 August 2014 - 06:35 PM.

[Dark Horse X]

Sandpit, on 01 August 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

we don't know WHAT a ppc would look like as a weaponized cannon to be fair. We have an idea on what one MIGHT resemble here in our real world but that's it. Point being, you can't just say "oh, well in real life we have missiles that travel with pinpoint accuracy with a range of 1000 miles". It's completely irrelevant.

Completely agreed, though somehow you mistake me for wanting "realism".........no, it is obvious realism left this bus stop long ago. What I'm pointing out is that the graphics, what they are now, let's assume the PPC speed gets the mega nerf.......and then it will look exactly like a floating ball of blue static. Hell, let's put a red flame out its a$$, give it thermal tracking and call it a RPT (Romulan Plasma Torpedo) for those that want the fuzzy ball of doom to hit anything remotely outside of 500 meters.

[Mazzyplz]

you said it would propagate at the speed of light,

the atomic nucleus doesn't fly like a photon or an electron, it would interact as though it had mass

i believe or i am just making a guess that the ppc in game is simulating shooting nuclei, not electrons

[Yokaiko]

Mazzyplz, on 01 August 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

you said it would propagate at the speed of light,

the atomic nucleus doesn't fly like a photon or an electron, it would interact as though it had mass

i believe or i am just making a guess that the ppc in game is simulating shooting nuclei, not electrons

http://en.wikipedia....ticle_radiation


Eitherway it would be a hell of a lot faster than a 100 kilo gauss slug/sabot combination. Real examples of those for 2,800m/s with a 20 pound round.

Edited by Yokaiko, 01 August 2014 - 06:54 PM.

[GreyGriffin]

I think all the physicists are ignoring the handwavium field capacitor.

[Yokaiko]

GreyGriffin, on 01 August 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

I think all the physicists are ignoring the handwavium field capacitor.

I actually stated repeatedly to leave real physics dafuq out of it.

[Wintersdark]

Oh, for gods sake. The PPC works by space magic. It only needs to be internally consistent with the battletech universe, it doesn't need any grounding in modern day science whatsoever. I could sit here all day and invent perfectly reasonable explanations consistent with battletech science, but its a pointless waste of time.

The weapon stats are the weapon stats. They are what they are first and foremost for game balance. If you want to argue against a change, you need to be speaking Paul's language and giving game balance reasons why not to lower the speed.

I guarantee neither Paul nor most other players really care what any geek thinks about how a totally fictitious space magic sci fi weapon "actually" works.

/crabbyoldguy

GreyGriffin, on 01 August 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

I think all the physicists are ignoring the handwavium field capacitor.

And the unobtainium based magnificating array.

[Yokaiko]

Wintersdark, on 01 August 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

The weapon stats are the weapon stats. They are what they are first and foremost for game balance. If you want to argue against a change, you need to be speaking Paul's language and giving game balance reasons why not to lower the speed.

We did, hammering the speed down below that of an AC10 makes the PPC slower than an AC10, hotter, impossible to brawl with and poor to snipe with.....you just hammered EVERY other mech that can use it BECAUSE it MIGHT be used in conjunction with a gauss rifle which in my best british ......is pants on head retaded.

That is basically the first ten pages of this thread.

[Felicitatem Parco]

PPCs are considered "projectile weapons" because it fires atomic nuclei that's siphoned from the reactor and accelerated through a series of electric fields.

They are nothing more than weaponized Mass Spectrometers.

They fire their atomic bullets at relativistic speeds (greater than 0.1 c), so they would be considered in game as zero-travel-time weapons (instant-hit weapons, such as lasers).

Is this good for the game? Well, no... I think it would be much cooler if we avoided science for now and kept them as Firey Blob Cannons. They should have a high Projectile speed, since they are trying to generate damage with some of the tiniest bullets possible (H and He nuclei); you need to throw it very fast if you want to injure someone with a whiffleball.

I say we could give PPCs a high velocity of 1400m/s, and break the projectile down into 10 (IS) or 15 (Clan) sub-projectiles of 1dmg each that fire in a rapid stream at 0.01s apart. This would make the PPCs into "burst weapons" with a 0.1 second (or 0.15 second) burn-time, fired at 1400 m/s.

(0.1 (0.15) second burntimes might be a bit much. Perhaps 0.07 (0.105) second burns would be better)

Edited by Prosperity Park, 01 August 2014 - 07:17 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Yokaiko, on 01 August 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

We did, hammering the speed down below that of an AC10 makes the PPC slower than an AC10, hotter, impossible to brawl with and poor to snipe with.....you just hammered EVERY other mech that can use it BECAUSE it MIGHT be used in conjunction with a gauss rifle which in my best british ......is pants on head retaded.

That is basically the first ten pages of this thread.

I understand that. I didn't say he'd listen, or that it would matter... just that a discussion about how the PPC works with "real world" physics was both completely off topic and utterly useless here.
This being Paul, though, the suggested options are our only options, so trying to explain why both aren't going to work, or are pants-on-head ********, or anything else isn't going to help.

That said... It's a feedback thread, not a silly "discuss how PPC's really work" thread. That's a perfectly valid (if IMHO inane) discussion to be had, just not here.

[Jakob Knight]

When everything is said and done, I think the question here should be 'While many feel a change is not warranted for the reasons given, if one of these changes has to be put in, which one will do the most to solve the stated problem with the least impact on the rest of the game?'.

This is why, even though I feel this change is not needed, of the two proposed 'solutions', the tandem-charging system (first option) is clearly the one to take of the two. It addresses the problem and its impact would be limited to the target mech configurations. The second option, to slow the speed of PPC projectiles, would impact a much wider part of the game, not directly address the problem (players would just reprogram their hardware as they did with Guass Chargeup to compensate for the delay), and invite more balance problems that would need to be worked out with still more work.

In the end, the option that affects the game the least is the one that should be taken, as this minimizes the risk to the game as a whole.

Edit: As to those who replied to my comments about Cone of Fire, I can see your point. However, I am wary of how this idea would be implemented by the Devs once they put it in, and how it would probably be subject to constant 'adjustment' when it still does not keep people from dying to high-firepower mechs (basically, once in, it would become random in quick order). If it were limited to the upper extreme of mech performance (throttle over 80 percent), then yeah, I could see it.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 01 August 2014 - 08:12 PM.

[Theycallmetheworkingman]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 30 July 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

You actually played less than 2 weeks ago and have played pretty consistently over the past two months. I appreciate that you may not like these changes, but we'd ask that you leave us your honest and constructive feedback rather than directed insults.

Pot, this is kettle. You're black.

[Gumon Choji]

First things first.

This does not sound fun.

What is the point of making a game less fun?


Next I do think the the idea of while a gause is fired the PPC cannot be fired in groups may be a decent solution. Another solution is that all weapons only fire in chain mode. But again the solutions do not sound fun. I think this concept must be made more central to the game developement. This is not a compedative game like call of duty. This is made to be a fun game for fans. Focus on fun and the joy of running around in giant robots. Most of us have invested haundreds of dollars to play. I also am a PPC user and the loss of PPC speed will make it even less viable as a snipe tool on lights. The slower speeds will encourage jump sniping as the targets (not the jumpers) will be hidden by lag.

There needs to be a few tools for fighting ecm.

Also please focus on making the game more fun. For example the new mech atributes that are minor positive traits are very good. They make me want to get some of the mechs. This is a positive method of encourageing sales. This is fun. In sales you are not to try and make products look bad. This solution focuses on the positive and is good. Use this solution on large alpha builds. Make the solution fun.

Use this fun idea of making things look good as a solution rather then not. Like make a cool new sound of your engine straining and shacing when you charge and fire the items. This lets you feel the fun and power. Or have all PPCs have a random milisecond delay based on what hard point you put them in. This will make you able to change this problem in offending mechs by adding flavor and fun and not telling your playerbase to not play how they want to. Thus keeping the game "fun". The player can alpha and lets shots fly but not ruin fun while encouraging differing builds. This again is all about focusing on fun and this being a game we play for fun.


In closing : please do not impliment the solution this way as it is not fun. Focus on the game being fun. Listen to how the comunity is happier with the newer solutions. Do not go back to the old punitive ways. Focus on the new mechs are fun solution. Big, shooty, stompy fun that has pried about 500 dollars from my pocket. Focus on fun and you will get money from more people. The quirks can solve problems but also bring benefits as to not make the game about negative rule changes but a consequence for making a mech better. The jagger can reload faster but cannot use both arms with all guns at the same time or the force knocks it on its back.Physical kick back to get realism for fun. faster reload to make mechs feel more of wha they are. More fun for existing builds but the positive comes at a cost..

Focuson the fun.