588 replies to this topic

[Sandslice]

Deathlike, on 01 August 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

Paul, do you read feedback?
As of today, even the highly competitive players agree with this module loadout...

...I'm not sure how that is much of an upgrade, as this will be the standard for most/all mechs. There will be variations like UAVs instead of Coolant for Light Mechs or Target Decay for a missile boat... but ultimately speaking, you've locked down "definitive modules" in each bracket, which literally creates "no diversity".

Most of the modules are situational; it's players that have chosen to assign "sufficiently less situational that we're going to call them mandatory" to a handful of them. And the complaint is that players have assigned this status to 1-2 more modules than can be slotted in. That's not a fault of the system.

If (as MasterBNB suggested on p16) we add 3 'Mech modules to every 'Mech (so that the baseline is 4+1 rather than 1+1,) then all we do is cater to the so-called "mandatories" (causing ~60k GXP to become pure progression) and then put the choice on top of that... and what thereafter? As more are added, something else will become the fifth "mandatory," and then you'll want it buffed to 5+1 because 4+1 offers only a false illusion of choice.

Based on the way you want to value the modules, there are only a few ways that PGI can achieve the module system they are trying to achieve, in a way acceptable to your "need" of the mandatories plus choice:

1. The Warcraft approach: The "mandatories" are now master 'Mech efficiencies and off the pilot tree.
-Some of these would be very bad if proliferated, notably Seismic. Also, it risks running into the fifth mandatory. This is not a slippery slope; it's exactly what has been happening in World of Warcraft over its several expansions.

2. The extra gear approach: The "mandatories," if not all 'Mech modules, become pieces of gear that must be mounted with tonnage and crits.
-Tonnage and crits are the "currency" of 'Mech customisation. This option gives us good fine-tuning of relative utility vs. real cost.

3. The addslot approach: Master Module slots can be added to the 'Mech; each is a piece of gear that costs tonnage and crits.
-This can be either fixed, or variable by weight class / jump jet weight. For all of these, I'd say two crits.

--Fixed: 1.5 (same as IS BAP and ECM)
--Weight variable: 1/2/3/4 (and change the Command Console to 2 slots + counter-ECM instead of current pseudo-TC3.)
--Jump weight variable: 1/2/4 (same as Improved Jump Jets, and still change the Command Console.)

These slots can take 'Mech or weapon, but not consumable.

[Anais Opal]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 30 July 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors,

The Dev Team has heard out your concerns regarding the over-use of Artillery and Air Strikes. With your feedback in mind the following changes are to be implemented within the next 2 patches.

Some have indicated that it is silly for Clans to have access to artillery in the first place, given their philosophical beliefs regarding that weapon system.
With that in mind, Clans will only be able to use Air Strikes.

To balance the Inner Sphere: MechWarriors will have the option to use both Air Strikes and Artillery, but will only be able to field one or the other on each Mech.

Please let us know what you think and update us on how this change will affect your overall impression of the module changes.

So you've gone from 48 strikes per match to 24.

It does nothing to help 6 Mechs getting taken down in under 4 minutes from strike spam (been there, seen that).

UAV's on heavy or assault Mechs are a waste of a slot (and cBills), they are SCOUT modules.
Coolshots are rare, if you're a half decent player you can mange your heat just fine.

Result? One wasted consumable slot.

Band Aid Rating - *Elite*

Useful Change Rating - *Mostly Harmless*

C'mon, you have to do better.

[DemonRaziel]

Paul Inouye, on 31 July 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

I just talked with Alex on this and I've requested the airstrike only limitation to the Clans to be removed. The initial separation is something I requested a while ago but after seeing your feedback I don't see the need to remove that module completely for the Clans.

HOWEVER:
Only one of each type can be fielded on a given 'Mech. So no, you will not be able to take 1 Air and 1 Arty on a single 'Mech.

Just like the case is with situational 'Mech modules being overshadowed by the Big 4, Air Strikes will most likely not be used over Artillery Strikes. Not that I feel too bad about that, but at least that would have given us some variation in the strike spam.

Paul Inouye, on 31 July 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

To re-iterate again... the Master Module Slot (unlocked via mastering your 'Mech) is being changed to be a combo slot where you can put another Weapon Module OR a 'Mech Module.

In other words, until some actually useful Weapon modules com out, this is strictly a 'Mech module slot.

Paul Inouye, on 31 July 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

The principle behind the limitations on Module Slots is to force a hard line decision as to what adjustments you make to your 'Mechs. Do you want to take Radar Deprivation or Seismic Sensor? Which is going to align with your playstyle? Modules were never meant to be a "leveling" system for your 'Mech where you eventually get everything put on your 'Mech.

The design approach has always been this... we plan on releasing a LOT more modules (there are 3 more tiers of weapon modules and range isn't the only property being addressed) for both weapons and 'Mechs. Basically this will be opening a large field of possible selections. The module slot restriction makes that decision a very important one when customizing the loadout of your 'Mech. There will be tough choices you will have to make as to which modules you bring with you. Different loadouts require different modules and this is where the fine tuning aspect of 'Mech customization comes into play.

So I'm giving you the incentive behind the design calls made and I hope that clears up some of the frustrations you have. Give it a go, adapt and see what happens. It's all I can ask.

Irregardless of the fact, that the true incentive is obviously to promote the awful and overpriced, and thus underused, Weapon modules and, more importantly, squeeze some more CBs from us trough "forced" use of consumables... even if the incentive was truly to promote the Role Warfare, it clearly failed. More Role Specific modules offer less to it's owner, than the "key" modules and will thus never be used. In essence, this will lead to less variety in modules used. Coupled with more consumable spam, the grind will also take longer, as these cut to your per game earnings quite a lot.

[damonwolf]

Quote

Good player adapts . Bad players whine.

Good players care enough about the game to give honest feedback no matter how negative it will be perceived. Bad players are fan bois who try to curry favor with the Developers or win arguments by constantly attempting to diminish/censor other player opinions.

Edited by damonwolf, 01 August 2014 - 10:49 AM.

[Bulletsponge0]

Can someone explain to me how weapons modules and arty/air strike helps promote role warfare?

[Sardauker Legion]

Good players adapts. Bad Players whine.

Sounds good. What about:

Good Dev teams listen to feedback and do big money. Bad Dev teams don't.

[Kjudoon]

PGI/Paul/Whomever... just stop trying to make this a twitch "skill" centric game, or provide a lot more **** for those who don't want to compete with these kinds of players, tiers or separate skill based queues to keep them away from those they shouldn't be competing against, or something else for those who are not willing to devote 40 hours a week to the game with the top end equipment. If twitch and top end computers is what it's going to take to enjoy this game with even a small degree of success, because to not have that stuff equals getting your head stomped in even after you've spent thousands of matches playing it with some degree of fun, I'll wait for another MWO simulator to come out. Been trying very hard to be supporting, but honest here, but I think I'm finally out.

It's obvious that the want for Arty/Air spam is a Cbill sink, just like arbitrarily jacking up weapon module slot prices are designed to drain money off of people. Sorry to say, this isn't going to work. People who bought the weapon mods at a cheaper price will use those and sit on them. Those who haven't bought them do not see a purpose for them or they'd have bought them already. I know I would have. Now I definitely won't until there are substantial upgrades in what they do for that price. Like extra 100m for SRMs, or 150m for MLs. You know, not for what accounts for a rounding error in this game.

I can't read this thread anymore. The cognitive dissonance by all the competing conflicts of interest masquerading as enlightened thought is making my head explode.

Bulletsponge0, on 01 August 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

Can someone explain to me how weapons modules and arty/air strike helps promote role warfare?

It doesn't. Mech slots do.

[Bulletsponge0]

Kjudoon, on 01 August 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

PGI/Paul/Whomever... just stop trying to make this a twitch "skill" centric game, or provide a lot more **** for those who don't want to compete with these kinds of players, tiers or separate skill based queues to keep them away from those they shouldn't be competing against, or something else for those who are not willing to devote 40 hours a week to the game with the top end equipment. If twitch and top end computers is what it's going to take to enjoy this game with even a small degree of success, because to not have that stuff equals getting your head stomped in even after you've spent thousands of matches playing it with some degree of fun, I'll wait for another MWO simulator to come out. Been trying very hard to be supporting, but honest here, but I think I'm finally out.

It's obvious that the want for Arty/Air spam is a Cbill sink, just like arbitrarily jacking up weapon module slot prices are designed to drain money off of people. Sorry to say, this isn't going to work. People who bought the weapon mods at a cheaper price will use those and sit on them. Those who haven't bought them do not see a purpose for them or they'd have bought them already. I know I would have. Now I definitely won't until there are substantial upgrades in what they do for that price. Like extra 100m for SRMs, or 150m for MLs. You know, not for what accounts for a rounding error in this game.

I can't read this thread anymore. The cognitive dissonance by all the competing conflicts of interest masquerading as enlightened thought is making my head explode.



It doesn't. Mech slots do.

So making nearly all mechs have the same number of mech module slots (and some mechs have fewer slots than before) is suppose ti increase role warfare how?

I guess I'm just saying that I have not been able to make the connection between this change and the promotion of role warfare.

Someone at PGI, please, tell me what I'm missing, explain your logic.

[Kraven Kor]

Bulletsponge0, on 01 August 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

Can someone explain to me how weapons modules and arty/air strike helps promote role warfare?

Because someone said it does, basically.

[Bulletsponge0]

Kraven Kor, on 01 August 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

Because someone said it does, basically.

can't argue with that logic

[damonwolf]

Quote

Bulletsponge0, on 01 August 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

Can someone explain to me how weapons modules and arty/air strike helps promote role warfare?

Kjudoon, on 01 August 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

It doesn't. Mech slots do.

THIS ^^^

Edited by damonwolf, 01 August 2014 - 10:57 AM.

[Tuann]

If you claim to go for role warfare,.. pretty please,.. think, then act. Do not insult your customers intelligence :-)

weapon slots are useless, underpowered and a waste of Cbills and Gxp (for the moment)
they are currently contra productive and offer no variety .

Consumables are a good c-bill sink,.. but honestly,.. have you , dear PGI, dropped, casually, for fun,.. when you get assaulted by, lets say 5 well placed arty strikes? Hmm ??
they are game changers,... let's not talk about spamming 12,... roflol

Mech modules are the ones that can be used for role diversification , and these get ignored or limited.

my analysis :
Bad call
Bad judgement
Bad understanding of your own game mechanics
Bad understanding of role diversification

i'll go with the flow,.. just don't expect me to jump up and down in glee for your improvement.
(and also don't expect me to pick any weapon/consumable modules until they actually makes sense)

Your changes are zero contributing to the goal you claim to strife for. Back to the drawing board dear Gents.

Edited by Tuann, 01 August 2014 - 11:19 AM.

[wanderer]

Dhread Danite, on 01 August 2014 - 03:41 AM, said:

How about fixing the fact that the lights are the new assaults in this game. You cant hit them as it takes at least three other size mechs to kill them and if you are an assault and the only one left to fight them you probably will lose. I was in a dire whale and a Raven 3L killed me as I was alone. Now with the consumables they run in drop arty and air and pretty much rule the game. There was nothing wrong with the module system as it was and you spent the time fixing something that wasn't broken instead of addressing the other issues of this game.

Awww. The big ol whale got harpooned by a light that could outmaneuver his glacially slow clunker that can be outmanuevered by an Atlas.

Hint: Being in a Dire Whale doesn't make you unstoppable and it DOES make you easily outmoved. You will only see one arty or airstrike per 'Mech now, though. That's about all the good that's come of this half-baked module redo.

[Rebas Kradd]

Keep the current module system until you actually release all the new modules that justify the new one.

Until then, all you're doing is undoing people's grinding work.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 02 August 2014 - 09:13 AM.

[Deathlike]

Sandslice, on 01 August 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

Most of the modules are situational; it's players that have chosen to assign "sufficiently less situational that we're going to call them mandatory" to a handful of them. And the complaint is that players have assigned this status to 1-2 more modules than can be slotted in. That's not a fault of the system.

That might not be the fault of the system exactly, it's moreso the "usefulness" of each module in question that's imbalanced.

Back when Seismic Sensor was released, it was the "wallhack" people were speaking of when it had like 400m range... and it took what 3 months to "address". You didn't need a genius to figure out how useful it was just by the initial design, and it's still useful for what it does (allowing snipers or missile boats to relocate... or brawlers to locate their intended target).

Same goes for Radar Deprivation when it comes to missiles.

The thing is, a lot of the other older modules are laughable... and was explained very early in their lifetime.

For instance, Hill Climb decreases your deceleration rate when climbing a hill. Given the paltry rate, it has VERY limited use and purpose, and I can't even justify it. If it "upgraded" the mech's movement type, you would have some useful meaning to it.

Speed Retention is a module meant for the "legged status", and serves literally no purpose for Lights, given that the speed cap is only 50kph... and if you can't shoot mechs going @ 40kph (w/o the module) or its 15kph "stunlock state", you have a bigger problem. The module by design is practically useless for all intents and purposes.

Capture Accelerator is a straight bonus to the cap speed... but when you consider the speed of capping in general, it's pretty paltry... so speeding up an already slow process isn't going to shave off that much time (if you're already in a group, it's going to shave off like what, 5 seconds at best with cap accel?). This module was actually useful when Skirmish was not in the equation... and even then, it's lost its role in the current state of "Skirmish with variations". That's just the problem with the module as a whole with respect to the state of each gamemode type.

So, as much as it has to do with the 4 known modules that are practically useful (5 if you consider Coolant), then you have to admit/realize that it speaks how the lack of balancing/consideration that many of the other modules have been minimized in usefulness by the increased utility that some "better modules" have over it. If I was running a mech that used the original 4 max module slots system, those would be at the top of the list anyways, so the "results" ultimately did not change because of the system, but the poor implementation of the previous modules in question.

Edited by Deathlike, 01 August 2014 - 12:39 PM.

[Anais Opal]

I have a proposal which I hope solves the issues of:-

1 - Strike Spam
2 - Poor Weapon Modules
3 - Redundant skill in the pilot tree.

Here's how it works.

Change Overall Pilot Tree as Follows

1 - Basic
2 - Change Elite to Veteran
3 - Change Master to Elite
4 - Master

Basic Efficiencies
No Changes (These Efficiencies are fine)

Veteran Efficiencies

Leave - Speed Tweak, Quick Ignition

Change Fast Fire to Component Engineering - change RoF buff from 5% down to 2.5%, Unlocks Access to Tier 1+2 Weapon Modules and Mech Modules (More on this Later in Modules)

REMOVE PinPoint (this skill is redundant, MWO convergence is instant and has been since closed Beta) Refund GXP to players

Elite Efficiencies

ADD Component Engineering 3 - Unlocks Tier 3 Weapon Modules
ADD Component Engineering 4 - Unlocks Tier 4 Weapon Modules
ADD Component Engineering 5 - Unlocks Tier 5 Weapon Modules

Master Efficiency

ADD BattleMech Engineering - Adds +1 OMNI Module Slot

MODULES
All Mechs 2M+2W+2C+OMNI from Effciency

Current Weapon Modules

Change current RANGE modules (Except AMS) to:-
Energy&Ballistic
Tier 1 - +2.5% RoF +heat
Tier 2 - +4% RoF+heat

ADD TIER 3-5 (Requires Elite Efficiencies)
Tier 3 - +5% RoF+heat+5% Chance to Fail@70% Mech Heat
Tier 4 - +7% RoF+heat+10% Chance to Fail@60% Mech Heat
Tier 5 - +8% RoF+heat+15% Chance to Fail@50% Mech Heat
Missile
Tier 1 - +2.5% RoF +heat+5% Chance to Jam
Tier 2 - +4.0% RoF+heat+10% Chance to Jam

ADD TIER 3-5 (Requires Elite Efficiencies)
Tier 3 - +5.0% RoF+heat+15% Chance to Jam
Tier 4 - +7.0% RoF+heat+20% Chance to Jam
Tier 5 - +8.0% RoF+heat+25% Chance to Jam
ALL TIERS NEED TO BE UNLOCKED FOR GXP AND CBILL PURCHASED AS USUAL

New Weapon Modules
Add new RANGE Modules. (Using the higher Tiers of these modules is risky for their benefits, your weapons can destroy themselves if you push the Mech too hard)

Energy&Ballistic
Tier 1 - +1.5% range+heat
Tier 2 - +2.5% range+heat

ADD TIER 3-5 (Requires Elite Efficiencies)
Tier 3 - +5% range+heat +2.5% Chance to Critically Fail@85% Mech Heat
Tier 4 - +7% range+heat +5% Chance to Critically Fail@75% Mech Heat
Tier 5 - +8% range+heat +10% Chance to Critically Fail@65% Mech Heat
Missile
Tier 1 - +1.5% range+heat+5% Chance to Jam
Tier 2 - +2.5% range+heat+10% Chance to Jam
ADD TIER 3-5 (Requires Elite Efficiencies)
Tier 3 - +5% range+heat +2.5% Chance to Critically Fail@85% Mech Heat
Tier 4 - +7% range+heat +5% Chance to Critically Fail@75% Mech Heat
Tier 5 - +8% range+heat +10% Chance to Critically Fail@65% Mech Heat
Consumable Modules

UAV remains unchanged
Coolshot remains unchanged

Consumable Modules for Scout/Medium Classes

Change Artillery Accuracy to Artillery Painter
Change Airstrike Accuracy to Airstrike Painter
These Modules launch like a UAV based on launching Mechs Reticle, Strike carrying command Mechs target them as they would a normal target and use them to launch Air and Artillery Strikes.
NOTE: Air and Artillery can be used LoS like they are now but accuracy is greatly reduced

Consumable Modules For Heavy/Assault Classes (Including Command Mechs)

Currently only Coolshots apply here.
Sorry, couldn’t think of anything else offhand (working on it )

Air and Artillery Strikes
Air and Artillery restricted to COMMAND Mechs ONLY (Atlas, BattleMaster and Clan equivalents)

Mech Modules

Well, there are lots of those with room to add more, no need to expand on this further.

Edited by GlycerineOxide, 01 August 2014 - 12:45 PM.

[DAEDALOS513]

Paul Inouye, on 31 July 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

*Grabs fire extinguisher*

I just talked with Alex on this and I've requested the airstrike only limitation to the Clans to be removed. The initial separation is something I requested a while ago but after seeing your feedback I don't see the need to remove that module completely for the Clans.

Inner Sphere:
* Can use Air Strikes
* Can use Artillery

Clans:
* Can use Air Strikes
* Can use Artillery

HOWEVER:
Only one of each type can be fielded on a given 'Mech. So no, you will not be able to take 1 Air and 1 Arty on a single 'Mech.

To re-iterate again... the Master Module Slot (unlocked via mastering your 'Mech) is being changed to be a combo slot where you can put another Weapon Module OR a 'Mech Module.

The principle behind the limitations on Module Slots is to force a hard line decision as to what adjustments you make to your 'Mechs. Do you want to take Radar Deprivation or Seismic Sensor? Which is going to align with your playstyle? Modules were never meant to be a "leveling" system for your 'Mech where you eventually get everything put on your 'Mech.

The design approach has always been this... we plan on releasing a LOT more modules (there are 3 more tiers of weapon modules and range isn't the only property being addressed) for both weapons and 'Mechs. Basically this will be opening a large field of possible selections. The module slot restriction makes that decision a very important one when customizing the loadout of your 'Mech. There will be tough choices you will have to make as to which modules you bring with you. Different loadouts require different modules and this is where the fine tuning aspect of 'Mech customization comes into play.

So I'm giving you the incentive behind the design calls made and I hope that clears up some of the frustrations you have. Give it a go, adapt and see what happens. It's all I can ask.

Why do you make DRASTIC changes when the time ISN'T right? If you had released the new weapon modules beforehand you would have avoided much of the ire now directed toward your company by your most loyal customers.

You betray us when you do this and we feel slighted. It's elementary.. there is a proper time for everything and by implementing this new module system too early it hurt all, players but mostly IS mechs since they have a greater disadvantage to begin with.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 01 August 2014 - 12:40 PM.

[Gorgo7]

Deathlike, on 01 August 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

The thing is, a lot of the other older modules are laughable... and was explained very early in their lifetime.

For instance, Hill Climb decreases your deceleration rate when climbing a hill. Given the paltry rate, it has VERY limited use and purpose, and I can't even justify it. If it "upgraded" the mech's movement type, you would have some useful meaning to it.


Capture Accelerator is a straight bonus to the cap speed... but when you consider the speed of capping in general, it's pretty paltry... so speeding up an already slow process isn't going to shave off that much time (if you're already in a group, it's going to shave off like what, 5 seconds at best with cap accel?). This module was actually useful when Skirmish was not in the equation... and even then, it's lost its role in the current state of "Skirmish with variations". That's just the problem with the module as a whole with respect to the state of each gamemode type.

I couldn't disagree with you more.
Hill Climb in a big engine Awesome or Orion makes for a sweet flanker on the mainline.
Hill Climb in a Hunchback can be a scary thing for the enemy...mine anyway.
Hill Climb in a Wolverine 6K with a big 350 or 360 can do fabulous things with a Narc.

Role warfare anyone?

Cap accelerator carried on two speedy machines as part of a split lance can easily turn the tide of a swift capture game.

Role warfare anyone?

Anyone?

Write about what you know. Not what you imagine.

[Bulletsponge0]

Tuann, on 01 August 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

If you claim to go for role warfare,.. pretty please,.. think, then act. Do not insult your customers intelligence :-)

weapon slots are useless, underpowered and a waste of Cbills and Gxp (for the moment)
they are currently contra productive and offer no variety .

Consumables are a good c-bill sink,.. but honestly,.. have you , dear PGI, dropped, casually, for fun,.. when you get assaulted by, lets say 5 well placed arty strikes? Hmm ??
they are game changers,... let's not talk about spamming 12,... roflol

Mech modules are the ones that can be used for role diversification , and these get ignored or limited.

my analysis :
Bad call
Bad judgement
Bad understanding of your own game mechanics
Bad understanding of role diversification

i'll go with the flow,.. just don't expect me to jump up and down in glee for your improvement.
(and also don't expect me to pick any weapon/consumable modules until they actually makes sense)

Your changes are zero contributing to the goal you claim to strife for. Back to the drawing board dear Gents.

I've never seen anyone from PGI in game in the week after a patch

[DAEDALOS513]

Gorgo7, on 01 August 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

I couldn't disagree with you more.
Hill Climb in a big engine Awesome or Orion makes for a sweet flanker on the mainline.
Hill Climb in a Hunchback can be a scary thing for the enemy...mine anyway.
Hill Climb in a Wolverine 6K with a big 350 or 360 can do fabulous things with a Narc.

Role warfare anyone?

Hill climb? really?

Because there are fewer slots now is MORE reason NOT to use this module.. do u see how that works? How we have FEWER choices? There are main modules that are must-haves.. then there are frill modules. Without having the EXTRA capacity, we can no longer customize our mechs without sacrificing much benefit from the must-have modules (radar dep, seismic, etc).

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 01 August 2014 - 01:00 PM.