576 replies to this topic

[Alexandrix]

I haven't seen this yet myself.
Hopefully I get into some of those matches at some point.I really dislike the idea of clan and is being on the same side.It should be 10 clan mechs vs 12 IS mechs I think.

But really,look at it this way.The only real advantages clan weapons have is range and weight savings .Their weapons tend to run much hotter than IS weapons.Well,the energy weapons anyways,not sure about the ballistics and missiles.And on top of that,the AC's are burst fire,making them much more difficult to land all damage on a single component.

Use their disadvantages.Get inside your optimum range and go to town on them where you have the advantage of cooler running weapons and single shot AC's.Never try to beat them at their game.it's not one you'll win often.

That being said.yes,the cheese boat meta mechs can put out ridiculous amounts of pinpoint FLD in one mouse click.It's stupidly broken,and hopefully fixed soon.

Edited by Alexandrix, 30 July 2014 - 12:33 PM.

[El Moosechacho]

Had one stompfest, and then this happened...

Edit: yes, clanners had 2 disco's...

Edited by El Moosechacho, 30 July 2014 - 12:33 PM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Frankly, what bothers me has nothing to do with winning or losing. I have winning streaks, I have losing streaks, the matchmaker usually results in a 50-50 overall state for me, so meh. As I said in my previous post, I have really no concern either way with how this balances or imbalances things.

I do not believe the clan 'mechs are overpowered (at least not to the point of unquestionable lopsidedness), for all that they function differently and require a different piloting mentality than most of the predominant Inner Sphere builds are intended for.

Again- my source of dismay is that something important like this is being tested without warning.

I can't conjure up any useful statistic they could gain from this testing that benefits from said test being unannounced. If they want to know about the relative strengths and weaknesses of Inner Sphere and Clan pick-up teams, announcing that they're testing it isn't going to change how the pilots behave in the matches, is unlikely at highest probability to alter equipment loadouts, and beyond that I can't fathom anything they would expect such an announcement to change.

A test like this at least appears geared to determine whether there is an imbalance in equipment power, which isn't going to be changed by either of those things- in fact, such an imbalance would be only highlighted in the event that such an announcement prompts changes in 'mech loadout.

There is no reason at least as far as I can decipher for doing such a thing unannounced (particularly considering that almost immediately several topics sprung up in various places on the BBS pointing it out). While that could certainly be attributed to the fact that I'm not omniscient (or even anywhere close) there's going to need to be some actual argument for an alternative viewpoint in order for that fact to even matter.

Unannounced tests like this engender negative feelings in the playerbase, and that's the part I find most concerning- I want the game to continue and to be healthy, and that can't happen if the studio developing the game alienates the playerbase with events such as this.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 30 July 2014 - 12:34 PM.

[DaddyP1G]

El Moosechacho, on 30 July 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

Had one stompfest, and then this happened...

Edit: yes, clanners had 2 disco's...

So 10 vs 12 WORKED? Lol

[Budor]

This was the closest ive seen in the last 10 or so. Caustic and IS had lots of lerms:

Edited by Budor, 30 July 2014 - 12:34 PM.

[Roadkill]

Technoviking, on 30 July 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

Have some competitive 12 mans done this? What were those results? I mean no offense to my fellow Pugs but...

Mixed results in the testing that I saw. Looked like Clans might be slightly more powerful than IS, but it was not at all clear. Adiuvo should be able to give a better summary of the findings.

[Andross Deverow]

Warhammer 40K Eternal Crusade is looking better and better the further PGI digs themselves into the hole they are in..

Regards.

[Dirgez]

Khushrenada, on 30 July 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

ok, so fun loadouts, or test loadouts are not allowed?
you have to be uber correct and a specialist in this game to be allowed to play and have some fun?

pretty interesting what kind of mindsets are trying to cover up the fact screaming into your faces that the clan mechs are simply not "just different", but indeed awefully more powerful (what they were in the lore, but they always went into a battle with minimal ressources, which meant way less troops than their IS counterpart).

keep posting this amusing tales of ignorance and elitist thinking

What I have seen are beyond fun loadouts or test builds. Some show complete ignorance of the gameplay involved.

No you don't have to be hardcore to be a competent player but if you put only 2 weapons on your assault mech or put nothing but small lasers on a slow mech and think that are viable then you need some help.

I myself do not deny the fact that clan tech is superior. The fact is that they are suppose to be in this timeline.

[Viges]

p2w bs

[greytiger]

So, for balancing purposes, there are some things to consider - Light mechs on the IS side tend to be faster due to the ability to customize engines, which the clans don't have.

Most of my deaths seem to be from light mechs, or concentrated AC/direct fire.

Now, right now, Match Maker doesn't allow for two stars (10) Vs three lances (12) - this is something that IMHO will need to happen for community warfare. Clans pretty much deployed in Stars (Usually in Binaries, but also in Trinaries), and the IS typically out numbered clan warriors something like 1.5 or 2 to 1.

Now, 2 to 1 odds, even with clan tech, is a -bit- steep for a PvP game. But I can see giving the IS an advantage in numbers.

Here's the other thing: In CBT, when the clans first showed, they had a concept of one on one combat, Zellenbrigen<sp> and the like. Social aspects to warfare that where limiting and exploited by the IS.

We don't have those in this game - not yet, and it would be really hard to put them in place, even with Community Warfare.

Nerfing clans will only make the Clans basically more IS mechs, with more limitations.

The -best- way is to do Clan Vs. IS, and do the limiting aspects with the number of mechs/pilots.

Now, all of this being said, I was on a team that only had two clan mechs last night. The opposition was mostly Clan mechs.

The IS side had much better teamwork, and we pulled out a close victory. In short, the team with the better teamwork -tends- to win, but the game is really unforgiving when it comes to strategic or tactical mistakes.

I get that there are balance issues - but my concern is that -if- community warfare goes life, and -if- they limit clan drops to stars (rather then making it an even number of mechs on both sides), that nerfing the clans -might- be detrimental to that in game balance that previously existed. I don't pretend to know precisely what the right numerical balance is, with in the context of this game, but I believe firmly that it is there.

Historically (with in universe), the Clans -where- higher tech and more powerful in many respects to the IS. It's what made the clans such a viable threat, and forced the IS to work together.

The issue is that to balance the game might force the developers to strip back that tech and make it too similar to IS. -That- bothers me, because it's yet one more element of the original universe being stripped away.

[Rhaythe]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 30 July 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

Again- my source of dismay is that something important like this is being tested without warning.

</p>
I'm not disagreeing with you, per se. In fact, I think you're right. Feelings are obviously being hurt all over the place. But I am reserving judgment until PGI announces what they're up to (which I'm certain they will) and encourage the community to do the same. A few broken eggshells are well-worth getting Clan vs IS right if that's the end goal of Community Warfare.

[Y E O N N E]

Technoviking, on 30 July 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

Have some competitive 12 mans done this? What were those results? I mean no offense to my fellow Pugs but...

There's a thread floating around displaying results of several competitive VTR-DS/CTF-3D vs. TBR matches and the victories seemed to slightly favor the Inner Sphere. Hard to know, because for half of the matches the Clan side was short by one man, and the pilots didn't rotate. This was also before the JJ nerf.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 30 July 2014 - 12:40 PM.

[Roadkill]

One other thing to note: newbies have had their Elo ratings nerfed for their first 25 games. The odds of Clan Mechs being in the hands of newbies is pretty low (though not impossible), so these might simply be what happens in the an Elo tier when the actual newbies are congregated on one side (IS) while the merely "below average" players are grouped on the other side (Clan).

Regardless, it's a pointless test. Clan players by definition have paid, which in turn implies that they're more invested in the game. It isn't a balanced test, so the data will be complicated to use. (Which I'm sure won't stop PGI from drawing conclusions from it... )

[Gyrok]

Adiuvo, on 30 July 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

Oh come on. What about the people running heroes on the IS side? Are they just casuals? Are these casuals somehow just getting grouped together while the other side gets all veterans? Do casuals somehow all have the same elo as these veterans?

3-4 Hero toting good players cannot carry 8-9 champion mech/noob green players.

In a 12 man if you are short 2 guys that play against a full on comp 12 man it will kill you every time...you expect that 3-4 players can carry 8-9 in the pub queue?

[Michael Abt]

My results so far IS vs Clans: 1:12, 3:12, 6:12, 9:12.

My first impression is that on open maps Clans have a huge advantage. However, if there is enough cover matches seem to be closer. Going to pay attention to this, trying to figure out if there is a trend.

[Heeden]

Bromineberry, on 30 July 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

There is something strange about it: Normally stumps are really super annoying...but when it's IS vs Clan, there is some sort of motivation, that I really, really, really want to win...it's strangly quite fun.

Same here, and as there's clearly an advantage to the all-Clan teams against IS, I don't mind talking a bit of trash about easy-mode after I die.

[Adiuvo]

Gyrok, on 30 July 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

3-4 Hero toting good players cannot carry 8-9 champion mech/noob green players.

In a 12 man if you are short 2 guys that play against a full on comp 12 man it will kill you every time...you expect that 3-4 players can carry 8-9 in the pub queue?

We carry in the group queue with 4 people regularly, but that's not the point. The point is that it's stupid to just assume that all of the clan players are these ultra amazing guys while the IS players are complete ****.

[El Moosechacho]

Am i really the only one that is kind of enjoying this? It makes the matches feel like there's actually some purpose, or back-story, and not just mindless cbill farming/ KD padding/ deathmatches.

[Sug]

El Moosechacho, on 30 July 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

Am i really the only one that is kind of enjoying this? It makes the matches feel like there's actually some purpose, or back-story, and not just mindless cbill farming/ KD padding/ deathmatches.

Very enjoyable. Still at like 50/50 wins/losses. Though nothing has been close. It's a stomp either way.

[Adiuvo]

Roadkill, on 30 July 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

Mixed results in the testing that I saw. Looked like Clans might be slightly more powerful than IS, but it was not at all clear. Adiuvo should be able to give a better summary of the findings.

Clans had the slight edge. We haven't played that since the JJ changes though.