65 replies to this topic

[Mister Blastman]

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 03 August 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

Guys can you just understand one thing...
- Alphas and pinpoint damage is a part of a game. If you remove it there will be no sense to play it further. It's like removed collisions, same as cutting-off snowmans snowballs

No. This game is based on Battletech. There isn't reliable pinpoint damage in Battletech without a Targeting Computer, which costs gross amounts of crits and tonnage.

[Yokaiko]

Mister Blastman, on 03 August 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

No. This game is based on Battletech. There isn't reliable pinpoint damage in Battletech without a Targeting Computer, which costs gross amounts of crits and tonnage.

Not to mention large roll penalties

[Tezcatli]

I wasn't really offended.

I wonder why they don't bother to actually address pin point convergence.

[Yokaiko]

Tezcatli, on 03 August 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

I wasn't really offended.

I wonder why they don't bother to actually address pin point convergence.

Like I said its somone's sacred cow.

[Coralld]

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 03 August 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

And it's will be more 50 long any way cause the balance in game is ruined. And firstly cause PeGIs selfinvented such Technical Readout 3049 which actually does not exists at all. JJ's now is topic for another over9000 threads of whine cause PeGIs made them awkward totaly.

Tezcatli, on 03 August 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

I wasn't really offended.

I wonder why they don't bother to actually address pin point convergence.

Yokaiko, on 03 August 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

Like I said its somone's sacred cow.

Actually weapon balance isan't that bad, people like to be melodramatic.

The only real problem for weapon balance is the PPFLD Alphas. PPC+ACs and PPC+Gauss.
Now I know there are a lot of people think that something should be done with weapon convergence, well, let me run down the list as to why that is just as convoluted as what PGI has suggested.

1: FLD weapons will still be better than DOT weapons which defeats the purpose of having this mechanic to begin with because even if the FLD weapon hits a mech in a spot you were not targeting, it still deals full damage to that location. DOT weapons like Lasers will be all over the place like a freaking light show and be about as effective, or you can make DOT weapon have pinpoint but then they are better than FLD because FLD weapons are unreliable.
I have listened to all sorts of ideas on how to pull this off and it always boils back down to this inevitable fact.

2: MWO actually had delayed convergence in game in CB, but it made hit detection crap and caused lag spikes to go through the roof as it played havoc on the HSR system.
Who's to say that other implementations of differing weapon convergence won't also cause problems like that again?

3: Creating a new convergence system of sorts is more difficult, will take time to build, test, and implement. Tweaking weapon behavior is easier and quicker.

4: PGI said no already, so that leaves us with finding alternatives with the tools we have left.

One of the best ways to deal with PPFLD Alphas, at least with PPC+ACs, is to make IS ACs burst fire as well, but with fewer shells, and a bit faster projectile speed, on top of that, increase base cycle time for CL ACs and CL UACs (which will effect UACs double tap) and increase shell count per burst for Clan ACs over all.
Most people like this idea and agree with it, also Russ stated in a tweet that "Its on our radar".

As for the PPCs+Gauss... Well... Who knows.

Edited by Coralld, 03 August 2014 - 04:14 PM.

[Iron Riding Cowboy]

Noth, on 03 August 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

Ghost heat was suggested by the player base when the swayback was running rampant. Instead they upped the heat of the medium laser and were lambasted for it. They use ghost heat to fix a similar issue (not the correct issue) and they were lambasted for it. No matter what the devs do, they get lambasted for it.

bacause they are not doing it right.... we keep band aiding shitfixing the real problem and its dragging this game down... pin point convergence.. homeless bill had a grate ideal

hell even a CoF will be better fix than all the band aid crap we got...

Edited by Iron Riding Cowboy, 03 August 2014 - 04:31 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 03 August 2014 - 03:08 PM, said:

I'm not gonna write another wall of text but...
I actually don't care cause I still got my LoL and AVA accounts, but...
When U guys... I mean a whole MWO community... still gonna be trying to get less painful solution about another weapon combo's nerf just think about what I said.
- You peeps are the only one guilty in all weapons nerfs cause it's you who allow PGI to nerf some guns like gauss, it's you who didn't satnd up when ghost heat where added, it's only you who gonna lose PPC+Gauss combo fire and gonna leave IS-mechs useless till... might be year later... new great patch with new mechs comes out. It's only you people who didn't said to PGI: - Oi! There is no techreadout 3049, there is only techreadout 3058 in Battletech. PGI's U R WRONG!
So. Enjoy incoming nerf and useless IS mechs.

I hope I didn't hurt your feelings much. My best regards.

Tech Readout 3050 is essentially what we're using from MWO, pretty sure.

[MischiefSC]

Gauss + PPC is ****. Nerf it with nuclear fire.

Are there better fixes to the underlying issues that have been floated over the years? Absolutely.

However, let's get this absolutely perfectly clear -

Pinpoint alpha strikes with big boated weapons are exactly what makes MW:O *NOT* Battletech. They are what make it like CoD. They are what make it *NOT* a 'thinking mans shooter'. They are the problem that breaks stock builds, weapon/armor/damage/range/rate of fire metrics and everything else that would otherwise make it a BT game and not let it fall into being reskinned CoD.

High-alpha pinpoint FLD are ****. I love Arma2; one shot one kill. DayZ I played before it was stand-alone and just a mod (was way better then anyway). This isn't that. This isn't that on purpose. It is, in theory, based on a more complex battlefield game called Battletech.

My ony issue is that there isn't a good way to make Gauss DOT, since a CoF isn't going to fly, too many people would cry tears of blood. PPCs could be though and probably should be. IS ACs should work like Clan ACs, just with shorter burst duration, faster refire time and generally higher DPS just with more weight and shorter range while their mechs are generally not as fast. That'd be ideal.

Baring that a small cone of fire effect would work too. At point blank it's minimal, further out you're lucky to hit the target at extreme ranges. Again though, SO MANY TEARS.

So we settle for nerfing the holy living **** out of PPC+Gauss combos. It's a start. Nerfing PPC projectile speed hopefully will go in with it. Just like with Clan DoT weapon designs it will, in the long run, make the game more fun.

[Tezcatli]

Coralld, on 03 August 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

2: MWO actually had delayed convergence in game in CB, but it made hit detection crap and caused lag spikes to go through the roof as it played havoc on the HSR system.
Who's to say that other implementations of differing weapon convergence won't also cause problems like that again?

3: Creating a new convergence system of sorts is more difficult, will take time to build, test, and implement. Tweaking weapon behavior is easier and quicker.

4: PGI said no already, so that leaves us with finding alternatives with the tools we have left.

That is a bummer : /

[RangerGee412]

Without the nerfs the devs put in this game there would be nothing but cheese builds.

The only way to make a battletech game somewhat balanced is to remove customization and allow only stock mechs.

[mike29tw]

Coralld, on 03 August 2014 - 03:30 PM, said:

Fun fact:
Ghost heat was the players idea which PGI ran with.

I hope they ran with another one of players' ideas. You know, the one that's suggesting PGI to shutdown MWO and let someone else start another MW game from scratch

[Mystere]

keith, on 03 August 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

tell that to pgi

Actually, tell that to the people who cried loudly for nerfs.

[Graugger]

I think the community could make a minecraft mod that.... err well you get my point.

PGI had Living Legends practically shut down so that only Russian servers are still running, cause Russians don't give two cents about anyone else's rulings.

[Noth]

mike29tw, on 03 August 2014 - 09:05 PM, said:

I hope they ran with another one of players' ideas. You know, the one that's suggesting PGI to shutdown MWO and let someone else start another MW game from scratch

With that kind of attitude and outlook, I have to question why are you even here?

[Mystere]

Yokaiko, on 03 August 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

Yeah because NONE of it would be an issue if EVERY weapon on the mech didn't magically hit the same damn spot. We have been pointing THAT out since CB as well, but convergence is some frigging sacred whale.

That's because many "elite" types believe shooting at a pixel involves high skill, do not want it removed, and have threatened to quit over it.

Edited by Mystere, 03 August 2014 - 09:25 PM.

[Satan n stuff]

Mcgral18, on 03 August 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

Alphas are a part of Battletech, and pinpoint damage has been in every Mechwarrior game. Though, turns lasted 10 seconds, and all weapons did their rated damage and recycle at some point in that period.

Pinpoint alpha strikes are not part of Battletech, but are in previous Mechwarrior games...the things you can do in MWO would simply make you explode, without any ghost heat necessary in MW 3.

Many mistakes were made in that regard.

Most of these alpha builds would work just fine in MW3, which has tt values for everything as far as I know. MW4 was a lot more forgiving when it comes to heat management than MWO, a triple ER PPC Awesome could fire pretty much indefinitely, try doing that here.

[Mcgral18]

Satan n stuff, on 03 August 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

Most of these alpha builds would work just fine in MW3, which has tt values for everything as far as I know. MW4 was a lot more forgiving when it comes to heat management than MWO, a triple ER PPC Awesome could fire pretty much indefinitely, try doing that here.

MW3 had around a 40 cap, MW4 was closer to 60 I believe.

MWO can have well over 80, on top of environmental bonuses.


Things we could get away with simply wouldn't work in previous titles.

[Satan n stuff]

Mcgral18, on 03 August 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

MW3 had around a 40 cap, MW4 was closer to 60 I believe.

MWO can have well over 80, on top of environmental bonuses.


Things we could get away with simply wouldn't work in previous titles.

There's a few builds that wouln't work, but most would. You're forgetting both of those also had much higher heat dissipation compared to MWO, all of the 2 PPC + whatever builds would actually be more effective in MW3 and MW4.

[Ryvucz]

Yes, the fault is all yours.

[Mcgral18]

Satan n stuff, on 03 August 2014 - 10:29 PM, said:

There's a few builds that wouln't work, but most would. You're forgetting both of those also had much higher heat dissipation compared to MWO, all of the 2 PPC + whatever builds would actually be more effective in MW3 and MW4.

But they couldn't alpha, and all have a large chance of hitting the same location. That is the issue.

PP FLD with magical convergence with a massively high heatcap.