71 replies to this topic

[Bhael Fire]

Never had a problem with jumps. They were fun on certain mechs and didn't really need to be nerfed as hard as they were.

I agree that there needed to be a distinction between 1 and 5 JJs, but I think they went a little too far to the extreme in making that distinction...and as a result made a lot a mechs not as fun to play.

[Mister Blastman]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 August 2014 - 08:18 AM, said:

I agree...but disagree.

JJs certainly should not be quite as gundamy the larger you get. But lets use the Heavy Metal for example... a Highlander, a mech known for using it's JJs to land on other mechs. Mounting 5 for 10 tons, I don't think it can get high enough to clear an Atlas, let alone drop on one. And even a drunk Direwolf has more than enough time to move.

JJs start using real weight in Heavies, and especially 90+ ton assaults. I don't mind them having less distance, but the big difference should be in jump agility, more than anything. And a little speed is not going to return a HGN to a jumpsniping terror.

I dunno. All my Highlander wants is a vertical speed boost and it will be back in action.

[Tezcatli]

I think they should increase the range. Up the speed just a tad on the heavier mechs. But also regardless of whether you've used all your fuel, when you're coming down, you still have JJs slowing your fall automatically. That way if you want to poptart, you gotta find the right window to get a shot off, while not being a target stuck in the air. And it restores the idea of using JJs to clear terrain and distance.

Well it might not work. But as it stands. JJs don't seem to fill the purpose they were intended for.

[Ultimax]

Adiuvo, on 05 August 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:

They need to be balanced in comparison to non-JJ mechs. At least you can climb that hill, a non-JJ mech can't entirely.

With changes to the hill climb system changes can come to jumpjets, but that honestly seems a far way off.

I agree that terrain code/hill climb needs an overhaul, but waiting for something else to not be awful, doesn't seem like a good reason to let something else be awful.

[Gallowglas]

I find myself in agreement with Roland here. They're terrible for navigation now. If you want to make them useful for navigation, but less so for jump sniping, retain the slower lift, but increase the burn time and height. The changes were too many, too soon.

[Rhaythe]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 August 2014 - 08:18 AM, said:

I agree...but disagree.

JJs certainly should not be quite as gundamy the larger you get. But lets use the Heavy Metal for example... a Highlander, a mech known for using it's JJs to land on other mechs.  Mounting 5 for 10 tons, I don't think it can get high enough to clear an Atlas, let alone drop on one.   And even a drunk Direwolf has more than enough time to move.

That's something that can easily be remedied by the quirks system on a per-mech basis, which is how I think a special case like that should be managed.

[Mister Blastman]

The hill climb code caused WAY more problems than it pretended to hep. It was frankly one of the worst things ever put in the game.

[CeeKay Boques]

Rhaythe, on 05 August 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:

That's something that can easily be remedied by the quirks system on a per-mech basis, which is how I think a special case like that should be managed.

We are buying specific chassis. I'd like them to spend more time with each chassis, and really flush out the quirks with stuff like this. Broad brush stuff just isn't what having 80 mechs is about.

[FupDup]

JJs have been stupid in MWO since the beginning of the game. PGI adopted slowmo hovercraft jets copied straight out of Mechassault and MW4, which was an utterly stupid choice. Here is a better concept for jets:

[Bishop Steiner]

What's dumb, is the only area I EVER saw JJs being "abused" in was Jump-sniping. So instead of adjusting things to simply make that less effective (extraordinarily easy to do) they punish the crap out of anyone who used JJs to brawl, terrain hop, etc.

I still use JJs OK for some terrain climbing in my Summoner, but it's iffy for everything else, and that's with a mandatory 5 ton tax. With a 10 ton investment, my Heavy Metal is still essentially useless as a jumper (and the thing was hardly nimble on the ground to begin with), thus I can't justify bringing one to the group anymore.

I agree with the attempt to make people actually not game the JJ system, but as usual, they went in all the wrong directions to get there.

JJs should be non Linear, increasing thrust as you add them, with the first 1-2 being pretty limited. 3 should give decent height, but be slow, maybe, and then the distance and speed increases exponentially, from there.


And stopping the jj snipe abuse was as simple as extending reticle shake .5 second into the down jump. (Yes, I am aware certain comps disagree with me. I would submit at least testing my idea would be preferable to what we have)

[Damocles]

what

[Davers]

red devil2, on 05 August 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

They should raise the exponential curve much more (so, more JJ→more thrust) and provide some quirks to mech which are actually supposed to use JJ such as Summoners, or Highlanders.

I thought all mechs with JJs were supposed to use JJs?

[Wolfways]

Rhaythe, on 05 August 2014 - 06:52 AM, said:

Jumpjets are still fine in the medium and light range. But yes, they are sluggish when strapped onto heavies and assaults. And you know what? I think it should be. You're talking 70+ ton monsters. They shouldn't be flying around easily with anything less than a Saturn V rocket strapped to their backside.

While i agree with this is still think JJ's are slightly too bad atm. My CPLT-C1 has max JJ's and can barely get up the side of a canyon wall.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mister Blastman, on 05 August 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

I dunno. All my Highlander wants is a vertical speed boost and it will be back in action.

low mount weapons and low stinking jump height, plus leg damage on landing? I'll get back to you about 3-4 minutes in the match when you have legged yourself.

Yeah, a very few people could pull of poptarting in them still. I'm fine with that. If a person can do it, in the window given, more power to them, that actually takes some skill. Previously? Sorry, no.

Of course, my reticle shake idea would make even fast jumping HGNs require skill, but hey.... can't have that.

[Mister Blastman]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 August 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

low mount weapons and low stinking jump height, plus leg damage on landing? I'll get back to you about 3-4 minutes in the match when you have legged yourself.

Yeah, a very few people could pull of poptarting in them still. I'm fine with that. If a person can do it, in the window given, more power to them, that actually takes some skill. Previously? Sorry, no.

Of course, my reticle shake idea would make even fast jumping HGNs require skill, but hey.... can't have that.

Well I never needed to jump high to begin with. But going way faster, upwards, would be a big help. It would need to be balanced with a very long hang time if any height is involved... For the nubs, of course. The good players never revealed themselves jumping for long to begin with.

[CeeKay Boques]

Mister Blastman, on 05 August 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

It would need to be balanced with a very long hang time if any height is involved... For the nubs, of course. The good players never revealed themselves jumping for long to begin with.

You think a nub hang timing in the air for awhile is a good idea? You're a very bad man.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Jump Jets have always been stupid, nothing new there.
1. PGI didn't understand how they worked, and didn't realize how they affected the game until they held a promotional tournament, showcasing just how boring MWO could be.
2. They removed knockdown, because the server-side authority was unable to accurately calculate location and HSR, and yet PGI failed to realize those same issues occur when jumping, hence the popularity of the bunny hoppers.
3. PGI identified two principal problems with jumping. shooting while jumping, and effectiveness of 1-2 jump jets. None of their changes have fixed either problem.

Simple solutions: no shooting in the air (or invoke cone fire, none of that ineffectual cockpit shake)
jump jets are added as an upgrade (like endo and ferro), it is all or nothing, and the jets are fixed in their canonical crit locations.
jump jets acceleration and animation are set to a level that does not confuse HSR.
jump jets provide approximately 6m of lift per JJ, allowing phenomenal spider jumps, while a 3x JJ highlander can barely clear the top of a mech for that infamous (and highly skilled) attack.
jump jets "fuel" is on a 10s cycle (like heat dissipation), JJ thrust regeneration is based on engine load (heat production) since regenerating jump jets draw directly from the engine (eg the more heat your expending the slower your jump jet refuel, an idle mech can refill from 0 fuel to full in 10 seconds).

[Lexx]

I think they should greatly increase the power of jump jets, but make them shake your mech the whole time you are in the air. Jump snipers won't be able to hit anything, but jumping brawlers won't be effected much, since they will be so close to their target they will still be able to hit them while shaking.

I just bought Ravens and the 2 jump jets on the Huggin are pretty much useless. They barely get my mech off the ground and I can't add more. The 3 jets on my Raven 4x aren't much better either. I can't even jump up on top of a building that's barely taller than my mech with them.

Since the reason jump jets got nerfed so hard is pop-tarting, then just make the mech skake during the entire jump. The bigger the mech is the more it should shake. Then increase their thust by at least 50%. This would solve the problem without making jump jets a waste of space and tonnage like they are now.

[Prezimonto]

CapperDeluxe, on 05 August 2014 - 06:40 AM, said:

There's no shame in adopting mechanics from Mechwarrior Living Legends. The jets were fun and balanced, give it a chance!

http://youtu.be/GF8uZ4VYRW8?t=1m21s

That looks like fun, but I'd prefer if all the mechs had distinct flight profiles. Push the button, JJ charge, release and you go for a percentage of total distance in whatever flight profile your mech follows, smaller mechs get a lot more variability in speed and direction.

So maybe the Highlander goes up to about Atlas height and forward up to 100m. Enough to DFA any mech, and get around small obstacles, but requires a lot of skill to pick the charge up (perhaps an indicator showing where you'll land pops up).

Where-as a Victor primarily pops you up a little ways and forward a moderate amount, but allows you to turn mid-air fairly easily.

Where-as a Spider can launch you into air, and allows you to semi-control your flight pattern with it's tiny wings... letting you get all over the place.

I also concur with Roland: I'd MUCH rather have maneuverability than the ability to reliably jump shoot.

[Bishop Steiner]

Rhaythe, on 05 August 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:

That's something that can easily be remedied by the quirks system on a per-mech basis, which is how I think a special case like that should be managed.

I think my points on my other post here, cove it better than quirks would...it addresses the actual problems, something PGI can't seem to figure out how to do.