188 replies to this topic

[Kilo 40]

Tom Sawyer, on 07 August 2014 - 03:44 AM, said:

Simple question then Fade. If the devs are so backed up on on other game issues why is it they will not let the community provide fan made maps?

this is addressed in the devlog #6 around 11:20

[William Mountbank]

Troutmonkey, on 07 August 2014 - 02:01 AM, said:

You can also completely forget about balanced maps too.

As for community tools those in themselves would be quite laborious to make, and then someone would have to go through and vet maps, and then someone would have to go over that map and make sure everything is up to spec.

The thread has descended into working out who is a troll, and who isn't, which is sad, because ultimately we all are I guess. But in response to the original quote, it would be tough to release full, custom, tools to allow map development, and it would take time to vet all community maps. But these are all problems that have been solved many times before - my first self made custom map was for Doom 2 back in the neolithic.

So:
1-Map Dev Tools: I'm pretty sure they already exist in the cryengine, but maybe there are licensing issues so these can't be used by anyone not investing in the Cryengine devkit. But releasing a protocol for map packs, and writing a basic command line compiler and packager for maps must be reasonably achievable.
You don’t need polished tools, just something that takes 3D data from an external source and prepares it to be integrated into the MWO engine. People will work out how to use them no matter how un-user friendly they are.

2-Vetting Maps: Simple answer, private matches can also choose a 3^rd party map. That way the players vet everything themselves. OK, so pug matches would still use the limited official maps, but later on the devs could simply find good community maps with pre existing playtesting, and use those. This also solves map balance issues.

The maps themselves just use classic height maps, texturing and event nodes for sounds and stuff like lava explosions. All the clutter stuff like trees and buildings are prefab. Basically if one of us can sit down in front of 3DS Max and produce a mesh similar to one of the game maps, then we can make game maps too.

If you think about how community content creation effects other games like MineCraft or the Unreal Tournaments, then you can see how such a system extends the life of a game and greatly increases its quality.

PS, I'm not bitching at you Troutmonkey, you just had a great point to jump off of!

[Dirgez]

Tom Sawyer, on 07 August 2014 - 03:44 AM, said:

Simple question then Fade. If the devs are so backed up on on other game issues why is it they will not let the community provide fan made maps? It has been proven that there are seriously talented fans of this game who can produce quality work. PGI can put those fan maps on the test server for vetting. Once they are checked and voted high enough moved onto regular rotation.

Instead we get more cockpit items.

Some of the greatest games either single player or online have legions of fans who mod or tinker those games into even higher levels.

Quote

...I would like to start some sort of community-driven map...

Believe it or not, they are already thinking about it. Probably working on such a project right now.

Edited by WM Dirges, 07 August 2014 - 04:12 AM.

[Alex Wolfe]

Fade Akira, on 07 August 2014 - 03:00 AM, said:

Have some patience, for ****'s sake. They said this stuff is coming, they said why its delayed, they did the same with clans and clans was brilliant.

Wait a sec, how was Clans "brilliant"?

They're just a bunch of mechs (PGI has shown consistently that one thing they're capable of is rolling out mechs) that don't even look so good compared to the concept art, infested with ugly lego boxes, balance-wise ranging from pure p2w (Mad Cat, Daishi) to "pretty bad" (Puma, Thor).

Clan lasers are just recolored lasers. Clan LRMs are just recolored LRMs coming out of NARC tubes, with Closed Beta tier camera shake that was once removed from IS missiles already because it was awful. Clan HUD is recolored IS HUD with a kicked crosshair. Animation of some chicken walkers is easily some of the worst animation in all of MWO, beaten soundly by a 90's game MechWarrior THREE. I'm sure all of this recoloring took a lot of work and resources, because asset-wise they're basically the River City Night of mechs.

Nevermind the lack of immersive pieces like dedicated Clan Betty (gotta cut them costs when you're selling your robots at a mere $50+ a pop), there wasn't even a Clan invasion to go with the CLAN INVASION, for Blake's sake, just content injection. What's brilliant here again? The glorified boom boxes they come with? The slightly-shined brown "gold" skins? The Wikipedia photo of a Russian politician, recolored and used as Alexandr Kerensky's hologram? Another set of forum badges?

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 07 August 2014 - 04:26 AM.

[Dirgez]

Alex Wolfe, on 07 August 2014 - 04:11 AM, said:

Wait a sec, how was Clans "brilliant"?

They're just a bunch of mechs (PGI has shown consistently that one thing they're capable of is rolling out mechs) that don't even look so good compared to the concept art, infested with ugly lego boxes, balance-wise ranging from pure p2w (Mad Cat, Daishi) to "pretty bad" (Puma, Thor).

Clan lasers are just recolored lasers. Clan LRMs are just recolored LRMs coming out of NARC tubes, with Closed Beta tier camera shake that was once removed from IS missiles already because it was awful. Clan HUD is recolored IS HUD with a kicked crosshair. Animation of some chicken walkers is easily some of the worst animation in all of MWO, beaten soundly by a 90's game MechWarrior THREE. I'm sure all of this recoloring took a lot of work and money, because asset-wise they're basically the River City Night of mechs.

Nevermind the lack of immersive pieces like dedicated Clan Betty (gotta cut them cost when you're selling your robots at a mere $50+ a pop), there wasn't even a Clan invasion to go with the CLAN INVASION, for Blake's sake, just content injection. What's brilliant here again? The glorified boom boxes they come with? The slightly-shined brown "gold" skins?

I believe what he was calling brilliant was the process of the clan mech's roll out. They arrived on time with no major issues to disrupt the program.

Obviously you are butt-hurt about somethings. May I recommend some vacation time to get your mind to relax?

[Alex Wolfe]

WM Dirges, on 07 August 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

I believe what he was calling brilliant was the process of the clan mech's roll out. They arrived on time with no major issues to disrupt the program.

Wait, rolling things out on time now deserves the "brilliant" praise?

What kind of world is this? I thought that's just... normal?

WM Dirges, on 07 August 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

Obviously you are butt-hurt about somethings. May I recommend some vacation time to get your mind to relax?

Hue.

[Ezazel]

Maps should be top priority. The much anticipated CW will be a huge disappoitment if we only have the same old maps to represent the galaxy.

Two new maps that are coming Soon™ is too little too late. They should have released map per month.

[Turist0AT]

What? You guys dont like the earth-bowls we have now? The imersion and scale of the maps is grrreat!

Edited by Turist0AT, 07 August 2014 - 05:00 AM.

[Prezimonto]

NextGame, on 06 August 2014 - 11:26 PM, said:

I'm surprised that there hasn't been any investigation done around converting some of these maps to MWO

I do wonder about this sometime. If they could just outright pay the MW:LL guys for access to their maps, I bet it would be significantly cheaper to get a reasonably finished map and polish it up a little than to build one from scratch.

[Jonny Taco]

In pgi land, small, bland, overly designed, bad hit boxed, and super gamey maps cost over 250,000 to make... What I find even more insane than low quality 250k maps is people that think the quote is some how legitimate for one, and secondly justifies the almost comically long dev time...

Now a more cynical me would say this entire business model is a scam designed around squeezing every last bit of money out of 30+ year old neck beards before the IP takes an inevitable dump into non existence in the near future. Since I'm such an optimist though... I'd say it's more likely massive mismanagement of funds, lack of design focus/vision, and lackluster talent/drive within their staff.

When we do eventually get a couple new maps, don't expect anything "game changing".

Edited by lartfor, 07 August 2014 - 05:13 AM.

[Training Instructor]

Spending $250,000 on these maps is like spending $1500 on a pair of designer Italian shoes that don't look that different from a pair you can get at Macy's for $150.

You can achieve almost the same result for far less money. Oh, and for $250,000 you would think they could have gotten someone to check the invisible walls on the new maps.

Edited by Training Instructor, 07 August 2014 - 05:53 AM.

[Bounty Dogg]

headbasher, on 06 August 2014 - 11:37 PM, said:

That quote makes me want to throw up, just wow. Cant make maps AND do other things , sell MW to someone with the money to make it what it could be.

Sell it to someone with the money to make it what it could be? SURE!!

.......Just point out those with money who are actually interested in BUYING mwo....as...you know...they weren't exactly lining up to buy the license when it was free and open........

[Bounty Dogg]

Ryvucz, on 07 August 2014 - 02:31 AM, said:

Small group of devs = small amount of resources to work on things.

HOW DARE YOU BRING LOGIC TO THIS ARGUEMENT!!! SHUN!!! SHUUUUUN THE UNBELIEVER!!!!!

[Reza Malin]

Tom Sawyer, on 07 August 2014 - 03:44 AM, said:

Simple question then Fade. If the devs are so backed up on on other game issues why is it they will not let the community provide fan made maps? It has been proven that there are seriously talented fans of this game who can produce quality work. PGI can put those fan maps on the test server for vetting. Once they are checked and voted high enough moved onto regular rotation.

Instead we get more cockpit items.

Some of the greatest games either single player or online have legions of fans who mod or tinker those games into even higher levels.

I agree mate, its actually a good idea. I would love it if they would allow that to happen, i really would. At the end of the day, and posturing aside, it would be incredible to get lots more maps rather than the Spartan selection we have now. The next 2 in the pipeline will help, but when CW comes it would be good if they had a robust system for matches and the environments to go along with battles in various planets and locations etc.

Looking at the first video Kyle linked in the OP, it actually looked fantastic.

I just think people get too carried away with complaining about the game, like its cool to coin the next catchy phrase or topic to slate it or something. When really all it boils down to is simple impatience. Its the same on all forums i know, but its petty and it still annoys me.

[TLBFestus]

Kilo 40, on 07 August 2014 - 01:33 AM, said:

Grow up.



It's pretty plain English. I don't know why you would need an explanation.

In CONTEXT it says that giving the fact that map making takes away resources from other (non money making activities), maps are not a TOP priority.


then in the very next sentence he said that "that isn't to say they aren't a priority at all".

but as usual, people focus on on line that seems to verify what they already believe, and ignore the context and the content of the rest of the comment.



such wit

Kilo 40, on 07 August 2014 - 01:54 AM, said:

1. community warfare.
2. they are working on 2 maps right now.
3. I highly doubt new cockpit items are holding back map production.

Kilo 40, on 07 August 2014 - 02:19 AM, said:

I went straight for the cockpit items because you specifically mentioned them.




all assumptions and conjecture on your part.



as you should well know, the community has been screaming for CW for a long time now. And they missed the deadline on it for one reason or another(and I'm not interested in debating that) multiple times. and now here we are, finially being worked on. I think the community will be more happy with CW this year rather than 5 maps instead of two or however many this year.



ok. and? you seem to want progress to halt on everything except for maps, and, as was pointed out in the PGI quote, maps are great but they aren't the only things the game needs or the community wants.



so you want them to hurry up and give you more maps so you can hate them faster.

I see I just wasted my time here.

bye

After reading all of these posts I have question. Since it's obvious you have drank all the flavours of PGIs Kool-aid, please tell us which one tastes the best?

The number of maps in this game is appalling, especially when you consider that they are "finally" rolling out some form of CW. This in and of itself is an indication of how bare bones CW will truly be. Mark my words, it will be monetized far, far more than any of us can think.

Don't you think that they could have perhaps rolled out a few less hero/champion/monetized mechs over the past 18 months and provided us with at least a few more maps? NIc L stated pretty clearly they aren't a priority and the obvious reason (since CW wasn't being worked on all that time) was because they were devoting resources to selling Mechs and cash is king to a discouragingly high level of priority.

Enjoy your Kool-aid while it's still free.

[-Natural Selection-]

Maps.... Map production is really my only real complaint with the game.

[Mott]

Alex Wolfe, on 07 August 2014 - 04:30 AM, said:

Wait, rolling things out on time now deserves the "brilliant" praise?

What kind of world is this? I thought that's just... normal?

This... all kinds of this.

EFF this ridiculous culture of rewarding every useless tool for barely accomplishing the minimal tasks they're expected to.

Oh, you got through another year of work without bankrupting the business with any of your idiocy and incompetency. Here's your bonus.

Oh, you lost your soccer tournament horribly, proving that you and your entire team should never don cleats or step on the grass again. But you showed up and you were nice guys, so here's your trophy, just like every other participant gets.

Oh, you brought my coffee and pie with clean cutlery and no disastrous order screw ups. Though you didn't know your menu when i asked questions, and you couldn't be bothered smiling while at my table, and you couldn't be bothered making eye contact when i was waving to ask for a bit of milk rather than cream... here, let me hand over that 20% tip you think you deserve.

What ever happened to actually awarding bonuses and rewards and praise for excelling... not barely meeting expectations, on things we didn't really need, while trying to ignore that important goals have been completely missed.

^ That said.

There's nothing saying that a map pack isn't a chunk of some phase of CW.

The fact that they're working on two maps to release separately prior to CW, does not mean that other maps won't be released soon after CW is up and running.

[Satan n stuff]

Training Instructor, on 07 August 2014 - 01:03 AM, said:

One of the reasons they can't hire more people is because they chose to not be located in a city that attracts talent from the gaming industry.

Lack of maps bothers me a lot, along with the inability to pick at least one map I simply don't want to play.

*No, it wouldn't be terra therma, it would be River City Night*

There's bigger studios out there in worse cities than Vancouver, their location might be a problem, but it's not the problem.
I might have considered applying for a job had they not been located halfway across the world from where I am, but at this point I wouldn't touch MWO with a ten foot pole even if PGI moved to a location near me.

[Kyle Wright]

Fade Akira, on 07 August 2014 - 03:00 AM, said:

Have some patience, for ****'s sake. They said this stuff is coming, they said why its delayed, they did the same with clans and clans was brilliant. PGI started as nothing, and have come on a lot as they learnt about this game and the community, despite half of it being negative crap. Yes they have ****** up sometimes and yes they could do better but find me any developer who you couldn't say that about? I personally think that in the last couple of months they have really started to do a lot better. Lots more patches, with viable stuff.

As someone that was burned into buying a Phoenix Package as I was 3 months into playing the game at the time and they said CW was coming last Oct., then guess what nothing happened. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me ring a bell?


The point of this thread is that PGI doesnt need to get so damn elaborate. Watch any of those videos and you wont find hardcore lavish cities or densely populated areas with 10 bijillion pixels worth of building, statues, and cars. I dont see how it would cost $250k to churn out maps that are strictly terrain with maybe a cave or two.

[Tynan]

I'm too lazy to go dig up the quote right now, but back before we got Crimson Straights one of the devs (I think Paul?) said that the map release pace was going to increase because the bulk of cost was associated with creating assets, and once they had a sizable stable of assets they could reuse them in new maps.

Funny how that's worked out. When did HPG get released again?