950 replies to this topic

[Smargl]

Texas Merc, on 07 August 2014 - 11:29 PM, said:

paul knows what he is doing

Now i think he eats his bread for nothing.

[SgtKinCaiD]

PPC slowdown ? Yeah why not, but i would rather have a cooldown increase instead, like +2s in order to force the player to make every shot count.

cERLL Increased beam duration ? Yeah why not, the cERLL is way to good in his state right now.
cERLL base heat value increased ? Yeah why not, see above
cERLL heat penalty increased ? Good idea because firing 3 cERLL was very heat manageable.
cERLL minimum heat penalty decreased ? Paul, what do you have against large laser ? Did they do something bad when you were a child ???

[Wynteryth]

Texas Merc, on 07 August 2014 - 11:29 PM, said:

quit crying guys this is a needed fix

paul knows what he is doing

Gotta disagree with you there, bub. PPCs didn't need a 37% decrease in projectile speed and the CERLLs didn't need 4 changes to "balance" them. They sure didn't need the free fire reduced to 1.. Change the "ghost heat multiplier" or the total heat.. But increasing the beam time on the weapon with the longest beam time already as well as increasing the heat and everything else makes the weapon next to worthless for light mechs..

[FDJustin]

Oh cool, you actually listened to some feedback. While ignoring the uniquitious "Don't do that, it's dumb, even though we hate the problem, this is a bad way to solve it."... You did listen to "So they'll mix gauss with LL." and decided that means "Dramatically nerf LL, problem solved."
And people say you don't listen.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 07 August 2014 - 11:37 PM, said:

The Nerfinator should shut off his brain, too.

Forever.

It was never on.

Feedback upon feedback threads... if Paul truly read them, I would see so many better changes done (or at least some reasonable reaction/changes) long ago.

Too bad, the cycle of TL;DR is normal for Paul. I can't blame him... I stopped reading the mega-ECM thread ages ago too.

Edited by Deathlike, 07 August 2014 - 11:40 PM.

[FupDup]

FDJustin, on 07 August 2014 - 11:38 PM, said:

Oh cool, you actually listened to some feedback. While ignoring the uniquitious "Don't do that, it's dumb, even though we hate the problem, this is a bad way to solve it."... You did listen to "So they'll mix gauss with LL." and decided that means "Dramatically nerf LL, problem solved."
And people say you don't listen.

Inner Sphere LL didn't get effected, though...

[NextGame]

CERLL change is idiotic, but im wasting effort typing this as you wont take it on board anyway.

[Samual Kalkin]

I do not own a single clan mech, but I still think the Clan ERLL change is just another verification of the complete incompetence of PGIs development staff.

[Pihoqahiak]

Far too many changes that are far too drastic all at once, as usual. You guys (PGI) just can't do anything at a reasonable, sane pace can you? The development is all over the place too, with this further nerfing of Clan technology while at the same time starting to buff Inner Sphere mechs to make them even, and THEN adding in game modes for 12 Inner Sphere vs. 10 Clan?!? This patch with further cripple Clan lights, even Kit Foxes will rarely see use after this patch. PPCs shouldn't even have the range they will retain since there is no way you are hitting any meaningful target with that slow of a projectile speed. Clan ERLLs build up a lot more than a "blip" of heat if you are trying to fire them often, and with the ghost heat you are intending to add I have no idea how you are thinking they will still only add minor amounts of heat. It's almost comical how this PPC nerf will also undo the majority of your buff to the Awesomes, as their most viable builds after the buff is using PPCs, and this will return them to the pile of assaults that just aren't worth bringing into a match. All in all, if you implemented the listed penalties to weapon systems at maybe a maximum of 25% of the listed changes, it might end up okay. While you're at it, maybe you should tone down the non-standard maximum range profile of Gauss Rifles compared to every other weapon in the game right now. Oh, almost forgot to mention how much less viable the proposed changes to the Clan ERLL will make the weapon module for them, and it was one of the few Clan weapon modules that might have been worth using. So many of your changes counteract your own game mechanics it's as if there is no coordination between design element teams :\

Edited by Pihoqahiak, 07 August 2014 - 11:46 PM.

[Shakespeare]

Veneroso, on 07 August 2014 - 08:59 PM, said:

https://twitter.com/...601757569372161

Ok. Just a test. Relax and postpone the angry mob till next week.

I feel slightly better. Thank you for the re-post (I do not tweet.)
Looking over some of the less frothing feedback here, I'm starting to understand the intention behind the ER-LL and PPC changes, but I'm still bristling at the methodology. Making a whole slew of changes at once is not well-thought-out, since 'fixing' it if the changes produce unexpected results becomes much more difficult. We've had this happen several times.

It does seem like reducing the effective number of ER-LLs to one, AND inducing a huge burn time on them, pretty much shelves them as long range weapons, though. The boating problem- that's what ghost heat (or god forbid, a change to pinpoint convergence) is for.

The PPC change seems aggressive, but it will probably not hurt too much. Probably. the K2 is probably borked, though, and the war hawk definitely drops down a whole bunch of notches.

But until these changes, clearly both intended to reduce the range of battle, are followed up with some sort of damage-over-time alteration to IS ballistics, AC5's is all you're going to see. That's what I was constantly fighting while piloting warhawks, direwolves, timberwolves. You HAD to find ways to apply a lot of damage from range. Now there's nothing left in the cabinet but Gauss. But the AC5 and friends live on, ripping off mech parts from a much safer distance.

Very strange. I rather liked the ability to strike back. Sick to death of ballistics ruling the roost.

[CAPTMAUGHAN]

Texas Merc, on 07 August 2014 - 11:24 PM, said:

LOL Did you not know who you were dealing with here? This is PGI bro, grow a pair and deal with it.

I know this is pgi, that doesn't make it anymore right though, they should be held accoutable like any other game studio would be if they pulled this crap, "Mass effect extended cut anyone"

[Texas Merc]

Wynteryth, on 07 August 2014 - 11:38 PM, said:

Gotta disagree with you there, bub. PPCs didn't need a 37% decrease in projectile speed and the CERLLs didn't need 4 changes to "balance" them. They sure didn't need the free fire reduced to 1.. Change the "ghost heat multiplier" or the total heat.. But increasing the beam time on the weapon with the longest beam time already as well as increasing the heat and everything else makes the weapon next to worthless for light mechs..

1st its called sarcasm

2nd welcome to what alot of us have been going through long before you got here

Really its all just par for the course.

[ExAstra]

With that cERLL change, my Summoner D has gone from a Decent Support Mech to a walking machine gun platform.

2xcERLL (RA)
2xcMPL (LA)
2xcMG (LT/RT)
2xcAMS (LT/RT)

Before I could use it to lay down mediocre fire at long ranges (using the two cERLL), switching to pulse lasers and machine guns to tear apart mechs that were in close range. Its overall firepower is very, very low. The advantage of it lay in its ability to remove its enemies ability to fight back by destroying their components.

Now it's going to take it over 4 seconds just to apply, hopefully, ~20 damage to a mech. Which will be spread out over it because 2 second beam duration is atrocious, and I can't even fire them both at the same time to ensure I'm getting maximum damage downrange on the component I want.

I know the weapon is in a slightly powerful place, yes. But you're not only nerfing it with a huge beam duration, but quadrupling the penalty for wanting to use more than one? What kind of engineer would make a weapon that puts mediocre damage down, and builds up THAT much heat?

I think the heat penalty is far, far too harsh. Give it the atrocious beam duration of 2 seconds, quadruple its heat penalty for firing MORE THAN TWO Large lasers, but do not give me an atrocious beam duration of 2 seconds and a heat penalty for firing MORE THAN ONE. That is just outrageous.


As for the PPC changes, it's "odd" for something that was described to be akin to "shooting lightning" from a mech to go so slow, but I think that the change may indeed be what's required for balancing the meta. I wont complain about the PPC nerfs.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Nice,



Although, further tweaks would be nicer... erer...erer...erer...

[Hastur Azargo]

Come on, people, let's not scream apocalypse yet. Sure, changes were drastic, and Paul did say that doesn't play on live servers much, hence the overshoot of this nerf. But at the same time the sheer volume of outcry, as well as data they're gonna gather from the weekend's testing, will practically warrant some sort of reverse on at least the CERLL nerf, because expecting a laser weapon to be chain fired one-by-one is ridiculous, and PGI will see that.

Let's just wait and see.

[GotitN4U]

For this very reason is why you run a public test server to get better data from the public then a knee jerk reaction for the community and the testers.

3 nerfs to clans and what is going to happen if the 10 vs. 12 also doesn't go well.

Is PGI then going to reduce the drop weight even more for the Clans from the current 60-200 tons and minus 2 pilots advantage with the 10 vs., 12 format set for the IS set by match maker.

Edited by GotitN4U, 07 August 2014 - 11:55 PM.

[Texas Merc]

Azargo, on 07 August 2014 - 11:52 PM, said:

Come on, people, let's not scream apocalypse yet. Sure, changes were drastic, and Paul did say that doesn't play on live servers much, hence the overshoot of this nerf. But at the same time the sheer volume of outcry, as well as data they're gonna gather from the weekend's testing, will practically warrant some sort of reverse on at least the CERLL nerf, because expecting a laser weapon to be chain fired one-by-one is ridiculous, and PGI will see that.

Let's just wait and see.

Posts like this is how we got ghost heat in the first place.

[Reno Blade]

Both changes look quite right.
The AC10 speed of PPCs is enough to use it well. Wouldve been harder with ac20 speed.

The ERLL 2sec beam sounds more than it actually is and gives time to shoot back.
Even if your target is at 1000m sitting at a hill and shooting you with ERLL, you might have a chance to snipe with a Gauss and hit him before he ducks back or the beam is over.
Just barely.

The heat increase to 9 heat sounds not much, fair enough.

The Ghost heat at >1 sounds high but thats not much either.
Where you got nearly 5 extra heat on the 3rd laser before, you will now get around 2 extra heat at the second and then around 7 on the 3rd. (exact numbers later).
The modifier will push the heat the highest.

EDIT: Numbers
the change from 8.5 heat to 9.0 heat increases the GH of the 3rd laser from 4.59 to 4.86. thats nothing!
Add the change from >2 to >1 for GH changes:
2nd laser +2.16 heat for a total extra on 3rd laser 7.02 heat. Thats average.

Now to change the mod from 3 to 12
First with 9 heat and limit of >2 it would do 19.44 extra heat on the 3rd laser.
Now with the change to >1 the second laser will do additional 8.64 heat which pushes the 3rd up to additional 28.08 heat.
Nobody will use 3 cERLL together anymore, but 2 will be quite hot also.

1cERLL = 9 heat, 1cERPPC = 15 heat
2cERLL = 26.64 heat, 2cERPPC = 30 heat
3cERLL = 55.09 heat, 3cERPPC = 57.15 heat

Both weapons are very close together with 2 or 3 while one cERLL is nearly half the heat of one cERPPC.
Operation successfull.
Overall the Laser will be higher heat efficient with 1, and slightly less dmg/heat with 2 compared to cERPPC, but still a lot higher dmg/heat than a pair of IS ERPPCs.

I don't think that's overnerfed.
Adapt and overcome, or change your builds around to support two strong energy weapons fired together.

I guess this will give builds with ERML and ERLL a slightly different gameplay with higher heat, but especially the brawling efficiency of ERLL will be lower, as you will probably lose some of the beam time.

Put one ERLL and 6 ERML on a Stormcrow instead of 2ERLL and 5ERML.
Use more other weapons instead of boating 2-4 ERLL on heavy/assault mechs maybe?

Lets see how it play out before we make our final judgement.

Edited by Reno Blade, 08 August 2014 - 12:32 AM.

[EvilCow]

Now I am undecided, who should we thank for this, Ross or Paul? to give proper credit of course.

[1stBEAST]

C-ERLL nerf is absolut nonsense!
especially that you cant fire 2 of them without ghosheat. and that wasn´t enough we have to raise the heat and the beam duration also!

i´m completly against it. and i´m a person who doesn´t boat any weapons. the C-ERLL was the only weapon to get rid of the freebirth scum BEFORE they could get in range to bring there point damage AC´s to bear.