692 replies to this topic

[SoHxPaladin]

the imbalance in this test is 12v12 IS vs clan....sorry, but it is true. the other effect was big groups vs mixed groups and the solo queue woes.

their numbers lie all the time. you put groups or solo players together against groups that know what they are doing, the mixed groups and solo players WILL ALWAYS have a harder time winning against coordinated fire. and it seems in the solo queue that one side seems to get the teamwork oriented folks and yours doesnt...

go 10 v 12 for the next test, with the nerf to CERLL *that is complete horseshit btw* and see what the stats are then. a ton more even than the last test even with big groups vs mixed.

[Jman5]

1453 R, on 08 August 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

I love the base assumption in this thread by all the smug-assed "We won, you dirty P2W-ing Clan b!tches" people in this thread and others like it. And that base assumption is:

"Clans won 90% of their matches against the Inner Sphere teams in the last test. This is un-good. Therefor, Piranha needs to reduce the Clans' combat power by 90% in order to make things fair again. C-ERLL fix totally fair. 10/10 would nerf again. Can't wait for the rest of the totally fair 10/10 would nerf again fixes. GG, Clammers. Now shut up and uninstall or go back to playing IS 'Mechs like REAL MEN."

...and you guys wonder why we're p!ssed at you? You're honestly unclear as to why folks like me are calling you out for ruining things that needed adjustment, not heavy-handed, lead-footed quadruple Nerfination?

Wait so now it's the players' fault that PGI is nerfing things? Man, I wish I had that kind of sway over MWO's balance. Poor abused PGI is trying to do the right thing, but their evil overlords on the forum force them to make terrible balance decisions against their will.

If you need me I'll be in my evil lair dictating orders to Paul.

But seriously, if you want to discuss individual balance decisions this is probably not the best thread for it. Despite what you and others here may think of me, I did say in the balance feedback thread that while I agree a nerf was in order, the Clan ER LL likely went too far. I also said that any Clan ER LL beam duration should probably be met with a similar beam duration increase on the IS ER LL. I am not out to get you or any clan players. All I'm interested in is finding a way to make the game fun, fair, and competitive for both Inner Sphere and Clan mechs across all the different chassis.

Edited by Jman5, 08 August 2014 - 03:12 PM.

[oldradagast]

Doctor Proctor, on 08 August 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

Yes, SURELY that's it right there. That accounts for why 90% of the matches were won by Clans, was because they had a few newer players in there whose ELO might have been 100 points higher than it would've otherwise been. It's just sad seeing you guys grasping so hard at straws here...

Oh, and don't know if it was stated earlier or not, but the whole bit about Clan teams probably being higher tonnage is garbage. The last matchmaker changes implemented tonnage matching, which would mean that the teams were balanced both by tonnage as well as ELO. So if there's a Direwolf on the Clan side, there would be an Atlas on the other, not an Awesome. So the whole "Maybe they were all running Locusts and Quickdraws" BS can be ignored.

Fact is, even if those things were true, which they're not, they're still not going to swing the data that far out of whack. We're talking going from a norm of 50/50 to a worst case expected value of 60/40 only to see a 90/10 split, and you guys keep trying to chalk it up to these frankly STUPID arguments that would sway it a couple percentage points at best. It's just sad...

Exactly. The clan white knights have nothing with which to defend themselves and they simply don't want their shiny toys nerfed. I admit that I can't blame them for that, but the real problem is random nerfing, not "clan tech is just fine even though we all know it isn't."

All the Clanner arguments either account for very little (trial mechs, new players) or simply aren't facts at all (Clan mechs have "weaknesses", but apparently IS ones don't, IS mechs have "front loaded damage," so apparently the Clan Gauss and PPC don't exist, and so on.)

I'm not in favor of the random, ill-conceived nerfs we all know are coming, but I'm also not going to buy for a moment that Clan mechs are "balanced" just because the IS mechs can still beat them (sometimes) and because a few random posters have better stats in their IS mechs than the Clan mechs.

Edited by oldradagast, 08 August 2014 - 03:07 PM.

[Clownwarlord]

I would have figured around 70 to 75% but wow 90% is way out there. I can now understand the CERLL nerf, but before seeing that number I will admit I was againsta nerf of the servarity that it was. But now I am in agreance with the nerf, am I happy about it heck no ... I am still working on mastering the clanners and some of my builds where using 2 CERLL at a time while carrying 4 so now I need to change my summenor builds again (I hate the summenor not many good builds out there).

[SoHxPaladin]

clownwarlord, on 08 August 2014 - 03:08 PM, said:

I would have figured around 70 to 75% but wow 90% is way out there. I can now understand the CERLL nerf, but before seeing that number I will admit I was againsta nerf of the servarity that it was. But now I am in agreance with the nerf, am I happy about it heck no ... I am still working on mastering the clanners and some of my builds where using 2 CERLL at a time while carrying 4 so now I need to change my summenor builds again (I hate the summenor not many good builds out there).

what is even better here is they completely remove the summoner's ability to do long range engagements effectively WITHOUT using lrms....so yea, the summoner is now a agile brawler....which is all PGI wants, no thought process in a game heralded as "a thinking mans shooter"

[Noth]

SoHxPaladin, on 08 August 2014 - 03:16 PM, said:

what is even better here is they completely remove the summoner's ability to do long range engagements effectively WITHOUT using lrms....so yea, the summoner is now a agile brawler....which is all PGI wants, no thought process in a game heralded as "a thinking mans shooter"

And it is still worse off than the Twolf at brawling due to lower speed, and lower pod space for weapons and heat sinks.

[1453 R]

Timber-S with the Timber-C's ballistic arm. I.e. the Surms-and-Supershotgun Timber Wolf I've been running since the Invasion dropped anyways.

Or, alternatively, the new Clan meta: quad-LRM Timber Wolves, all day erry day.

Because a few more patches like this and we won't have anything else left to run.

[EgoSlayer]

Its funny that two of the key elements used for this test, Elo and the Mathmaker are some of the most hated/inaccurate systems in the game, usually with 2 - 10 threads in the first two pages about how bad/broken they are.

Yet, since it shows 90% Clan wins, those two systems are now somehow magically 'fixed' and perfectly balanced for all the Clan is OP crowd. Probably some of whom create or join in on the above threads...

PGI's testing methods are flawed, anyone who can't see why is deluding themselves. That doesn't mean it's totally useless though. But raw numbers can't account for people throwing games, inaccurate player rankings, off peak play times, etc. There are tons of problems with the test methodology.
They really need better control sets and parameters. Is there an imbalance? Probably. Near the level this test shows? - not likely.

[Mystere]

Lefty Lucy, on 08 August 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

Who is gloating?

Well, it looks like the biggest offender was totally moderated out of this thread. He had several gleeful( ) posts.

But I did find this one. And here's another (somewhat, anyway). But they were nowhere close to the first one. I wonder if that was a permaban.

Edited by Mystere, 08 August 2014 - 03:41 PM.

[Doctor Proctor]

SoHxPaladin, on 08 August 2014 - 03:16 PM, said:

what is even better here is they completely remove the summoner's ability to do long range engagements effectively WITHOUT using lrms....so yea, the summoner is now a agile brawler....which is all PGI wants, no thought process in a game heralded as "a thinking mans shooter"

Really? I wasn't aware that the Summoner couldn't mount ERPPC's or use ERML (which have the same range as IS LL, a weapon commonly thought of as "long range"). Do none of the variants have AC/Gauss either? ANY OF THEM?

Oh, or did you mean that it can't fire with impunity outside of the range of 90% of IS weaponry, even multiple supposedly "long range" systems? Ah...I see your point now.

[ThermidorFallen]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that only 10% of players in those matches were from FedCom. THAT is where the 10% of wins came from for IS and where the problem lies, if all the IS players followed FedCom training, regulations, manufacturing proccesses and folded under the leadership of House Davion, we'd win every time without a problem. Case closed.

[Hobgoblin I]

EgoSlayer, on 08 August 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

Its funny that two of the key elements used for this test, Elo and the Mathmaker are some of the most hated/inaccurate systems in the game, usually with 2 - 10 threads in the first two pages about how bad/broken they are.

PGI's testing methods are flawed, anyone who can't see why is deluding themselves. That doesn't mean it's totally useless though. But raw numbers can't account for people throwing games, inaccurate player rankings, off peak play times, etc. There are tons of problems with the test methodology.
They really need better control sets and parameters. Is there an imbalance? Probably. Near the level this test shows? - not likely.

Throwing games? Only IS did that and not the clans? You have some sort of proof or numbers on this?
Inaccurate player ranking? Is that also only an IS thing and you have some evidence to offer on it also?
Off peak play times...good clan pilots play at off peak times but good IS pilots don't?

[Soulscour]

Reading all 26 pages of this has been hilarious. Instead of admitting that clan mechs are OP most of the people look for ways to discredit the 90%-10% ratio and explain why a 40% variance can make sense and that clan mechs are fair. There has never been a more enlightening thread, not regarding play balance, but of the people in this forum. Anyone who is really interested in play balance and wants to discuss it, you are wasting your time with this rabble.

[BoomDog]

This whole thread is scientific proof that people will go to any length, even denying the existence of reality, to keep their easy mode.

[Mcgral18]

Soulscour, on 08 August 2014 - 04:38 PM, said:

Reading all 26 pages of this has been hilarious. Instead of admitting that clan mechs are OP most of the people look for ways to discredit the 90%-10% ratio and explain why a 40% variance can make sense and that clan mechs are fair. There has never been a more enlightening thread, not regarding play balance, but of the people in this forum. Anyone who is really interested in play balance and wants to discuss it, you are wasting your time with this rabble.

Same for those wanting any accurate testing.

[IraqiWalker]

Jman5, on 08 August 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

Wait so now it's the players' fault that PGI is nerfing things? Man, I wish I had that kind of sway over MWO's balance. Poor abused PGI is trying to do the right thing, but their evil overlords on the forum force them to make terrible balance decisions against their will.

If you need me I'll be in my evil lair dictating orders to Paul.

But seriously, if you want to discuss individual balance decisions this is probably not the best thread for it. Despite what you and others here may think of me, I did say in the balance feedback thread that while I agree a nerf was in order, the Clan ER LL likely went too far. I also said that any Clan ER LL beam duration should probably be met with a similar beam duration increase on the IS ER LL. I am not out to get you or any clan players. All I'm interested in is finding a way to make the game fun, fair, and competitive for both Inner Sphere and Clan mechs across all the different chassis.

You're a reasonable human being, and don't really belong on about 75% of all threads in these forums, Jman.

oldradagast, on 08 August 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

Exactly. The clan white knights have nothing with which to defend themselves and they simply don't want their shiny toys nerfed. I admit that I can't blame them for that, but the real problem is random nerfing, not "clan tech is just fine even though we all know it isn't."

All the Clanner arguments either account for very little (trial mechs, new players) or simply aren't facts at all (Clan mechs have "weaknesses", but apparently IS ones don't, IS mechs have "front loaded damage," so apparently the Clan Gauss and PPC don't exist, and so on.)

I'm not in favor of the random, ill-conceived nerfs we all know are coming, but I'm also not going to buy for a moment that Clan mechs are "balanced" just because the IS mechs can still beat them (sometimes) and because a few random posters have better stats in their IS mechs than the Clan mechs.

The point of the PP FLD is that gauss and ERPPC (what I would give to get regular PPCs), are the ONLY PP FLD choices clans have.

While every single IS AC is a PP FLD weapon. it's 2 versus 7 (no I didn't count LBXes for both sides, because LBXs are flat out awful right now).

As for clan mechs having weaknesses, that has already been proven, and I can take you through a full course of it later.

I'm in the camp that wants all the data actually. Not just insanely ambiguous data that doesn't tell me how the matches really went.

ThermidorFallen, on 08 August 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that only 10% of players in those matches were from FedCom. THAT is where the 10% of wins came from for IS and where the problem lies, if all the IS players followed FedCom training, regulations, manufacturing proccesses and folded under the leadership of House Davion, we'd win every time without a problem. Case closed.

You know, I've never been of the "Davion is the bestest and brightest" mentality, since this is a game, but I might have to agree with that one.

Hobgoblin I, on 08 August 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

Throwing games? Only IS did that and not the clans? You have some sort of proof or numbers on this?
Inaccurate player ranking? Is that also only an IS thing and you have some evidence to offer on it also?
Off peak play times...good clan pilots play at off peak times but good IS pilots don't?

I don't think throwing games was meant in a malicious way (feel free to correct me on that one Ego), but having the 2 derps that decide to charge a 10 man formation, and explode into smithereens 20 seconds into the match is a form of throwing the game, even if it's un-intentional.

[Mystere]

Jman5, on 08 August 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

If you need me I'll be in my evil lair dictating orders to Paul.

[Joseph Mallan]

I guess I'll just stay on my island happy that the Clans are almost as good as they should be!

[Hobgoblin I]

IraqiWalker, on 08 August 2014 - 04:42 PM, said:

I don't think throwing games was meant in a malicious way (feel free to correct me on that one Ego), but having the 2 derps that decide to charge a 10 man formation, and explode into smithereens 20 seconds into the match is a form of throwing the game, even if it's un-intentional.

There are derp clan pilots as well as derp IS pilots. With a large enough sample size the derp ratio should normalize.

[IraqiWalker]

BoomDog, on 08 August 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

This whole thread is scientific proof that people will go to any length, even denying the existence of reality, to keep their easy mode.

Funny, I rarely play my clan mechs (been that way for the last 4 weeks.). I've been mainly using my IS mechs actually, barring the occasional troll drop in my DWF-Iraqi

The last time I had taken my Direwolf Prime for a drop before this last test (I had one in, and realized there was a test going on) was 4 weeks ago. Been playing Orions mostly (K and protector), as they are my best clan busters.

Hobgoblin I, on 08 August 2014 - 04:45 PM, said:

There are derp clan pilots as well as derp IS pilots. With a large enough sample size the derp ratio should normalize.

Yep, except only the IS has derp light pilots that can go 150 Kph.
(I'm no disputing what you're saying for the record.)
Also, as mentioned above, in solo play, clans do confer an advantage, mostly because their loadouts, and nature pretty much favor these independent long poke fests, and lack of focus fire.