129 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Viktor Drake, on 10 August 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

Here is the thing. Heavy weapons have diminishing returns. In general they put out more heat and weigh alot more than lighter weapons. Also the damaged gained isn't proportional to the heat and weight increases. What they do offer however is much longer ranges and generally a larger chunk of damage in shorter time. So when you mount a larger weapon, generally you start off with a large trade off that is actually more inefficient than mounting smaller weapons. Therefore they really shouldn't be adding in additional trade offs, especially ones that "specialize" the weapons into very small roles. For example, right now the C-ER LL is 4x heavier than a C-ER ML, It has almost twice the heat of the C-ER ML and takes almost twice as long to do 30% more damage. Its one benefit is that it has twice the range but there are a hell of alot of disadvantages to offset that one advantage. Also because it has one advantage and one advantage only, it has become "Specialized" in its role meaning it is only good at long range sniping and even then, with a 2.0 second burn time, sniping with it is a dubious proposition. This being the case, why would you ever chose a C-ER LL and devote 3 more tons of precious weight that is only going to pack on even more heat over a C-ER ML or even some other heavy weapon that isn't as "specialized". See this issue? Lasers are a class of weapon and should share characteristics. Choosing a large over a medium, should be a direct upgrade, not about choosing a specialization. Large Lasers should be just as good at short range combat as medium lasers but have the benefit of being longer ranged at the expense of weight and heat. That is the trade off, weight and heat, there just doesn't need to be more to distinguish the weapons.

On that note, CERML needs to be looked at. Currently it is having all the benefits of the ER family with very little of the actual drawbacks. Very strong weapon for 1 ton and 1 slot.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Doctor Proctor, on 10 August 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

Except for two factors:

1) The IS mechs will be under fire constantly from hundreds of meters out by weapons with superior DPS before they can effectively return fire, let alone bring their smaller/shorter range weapons to bear. Full damage on the ML workhorse, for example, only kicks at 270m.

Except when in cover where it is impossible to hit the enemy, even at extreme range. The maps aren't flat open grass fields after all. Even Alpine offers quite a bit of covered approaches if one chooses to use them. Also once an enemy closes the distance, all advantage disappears and C-ER LLs are not massively disadvantaged. Additionally, since most maps and most fighting takes place under 500m, the situations and lengths of time where the C-ER LL will be facing a disadvantage will be much greater than when it has an advantage.

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2) Due to slot and weight savings the Clans can devote more tonnage to heat sinks, thus negating the heat disparity while still being able to fire from range. ISERLL + DHS = 6 tons and 5 slots, whereas CERLL + CDHS = 5 tons and 3 slots. Meaning that the Clanner can go CERLL + 2xDHS for 6 tons and 5 slots, which as I said completely negates heat disadvantage.

So as you point out, the Clan weapons lower weights and ability to devote more tonnage to heat sinks is directly proportionally to the extra heat these weapons generate which creates a "Balance" between IS and Clan weapons. Basically from a heat and weight standpoint, your saying Clan weapons are balanced compared to IS weapons.

Ok I can agree with this.

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So basically, for the same 6 tons and 5 slots the IS mech uses up the Clans get a weapon that does more damage, fires from a longer range and probably has equal if not better heat dissipation due to the presence of an extra heat sink. Where's the downside here? Even once you get inside of their optimal range they WON'T be running hotter, and will just melt you there because even with the longer burn time they still have higher DPS numbers than the ISERLL can put out. This is why it was an OP weapon system.

This is where your logic fails.

With a 2.0 second burn time, it takes twice as long to apply its max damage to a target. Lets see, which is a higher DPS, 9 damage in 1.0 seconds or 11.25 damage in 2.0 seconds. If I do the math here I see a Damage per Second of IS =9, Clan = 5.625. Wow, that means the IS ER LL has almost DOUBLE the DPS of a Clan ER LL now while producing less heat.

This isn't even considering factors such as how much more difficult holding a beam on target for 2.0 second is or how much longer you have to stand exposed to hold a 2.0 second beam on target or how the IS ER LL will have fired, did its full damage and be 33% through its cool down cycle before the C-ER LL finished its 2.0 second burn.

So how again does the C-ER LL not have a massive disadvantage against IS ER LLs once an IS pilot gets in under the C-ER LL optimal range?

This goes right back to what I was saying in my response to your first comment. The C-ER LL hold a very limited advantage at long ranges but only if it has unrestricted engagement ability at those ranges (ie the enemy is in the open and taking fire). Also how long does it take even an uber slow Assault mech to run 200-300m? 10 seconds or maybe 2 shots from your lasers from which most of its damage can be negated with just a bit of torso twisting.

So, how much of an advantage is all this extra range really?

Edited by Viktor Drake, 10 August 2014 - 12:13 PM.

[Doctor Proctor]

Viktor Drake, on 10 August 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

Except when in cover where it is impossible to hit the enemy, even at extreme range. The maps aren't flat open grass fields after all. Even Alpine offers quite a bit of covered approaches if one chooses to use them. Also once an enemy closes the distance, all advantage disappears and C-ER LLs are not massively disadvantaged. Additionally, since most maps and most fighting takes place under 500m, the situations and lengths of time where the C-ER LL will be facing a disadvantage will be much greater than when it has an advantage.

At 500m and ISLL will not do full damage, nor will an ISML, while the CERLL will and the CERML will be taking a minor damage despite being the "close range" weapon of the two. Additionally, I play Brawlers mostly and I can tell you that most engagements don't get to under 500m until well into the match and after multiple mechs have died typcially. That means that the 500+ range weapons are doing plenty of damage to kill, and the Clan variants especially are still maintaining their full damage much farther out.

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So as you point out, the Clan weapons lower weights and ability to devote more tonnage to heat sinks is directly proportionally to the extra heat these weapons generate which creates a "Balance" between IS and Clan weapons. Basically from a heat and weight standpoint, your saying Clan weapons are balanced compared to IS weapons.

Ok I can agree with this.

No, because the Clan version matches the heat efficiency of the IS weapon while still maintaining higher DPS and higher range. That's not "balance", that's clearly superior. What was supposed to happen is that the Clans would be hampered by higher heat, thus making heat management more important and forcing them to make their shots count instead of spamming them. The weight and slot savings completely negate this disadvantage, thus making it superior in EVERY SINGLE WAY other than heat, where they're about equal. And this is post nerf.

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This is where your logic fails.

With a 2.0 second burn time, it takes twice as long to apply its max damage to a target. Lets see, which is a higher DPS, 9 damage in 1.0 seconds or 11.25 damage in 2.0 seconds. If I do the match here I see a Damage per Second of IS =9, Clan = 5.625. Wow, that means the IS ER LL has almost DOUBLE the DPS of a Clan ER LL now while producing less heat.

This isn't even considering factors such as how much more difficult holding a beam on target for 2.0 second is or how much longer you have to stand exposed to hold a 2.0 second beam on target or how the IS ER LL will have fired, did its full damage and be 33% through its cool down cycle before the C-ER LL finished its 2.0 second burn.

So how again does the C-ER LL not have a massive disadvantage against IS ER LLs once an IS pilot gets in under the C-ER LL optimal range?

This goes right back to what I was saying in my response to your first comment. The C-ER LL hold a very limited advantage at long ranges but only if it has unrestricted engagement ability at those ranges (ie the enemy is in the open and taking fire). Also how long does it take even an uber slow Assault mech to run 200-300m? 10 seconds or maybe 2 shots from your lasers from which most of its damage can be negated with just a bit of torso twisting.

So, how much of an advantage is all this extra range really?

Again, as I pointed out before, DPS is the burn time plus cycle time. When you do that the DPS are much closer, and in fact superior for the clans. Yes they still have to hold their fire longer, but this isn't all that much of a problem in most engagements. They're typically mounting significantly more firepower than an IS counterpart and will win the engagement.

Also, torso twisting doesn't "negate" anything, it distributes the damage. You're still taking it. So instead of in the CT it gets spread across say CT, RT and RA. Guess what, eventually you'll lose that right arm, which probably has a weapon in it. Or you'll lose that RT, which could be an outright kill for the Clanner if the IS mech is running an XL. Damage is damage, and nothing in this game "negates" it other than a total miss.

That Clanner mech can torso twist too you know, which means he's distributing damage as well. Between two similarly skilled pilots they're not going to just face each other for 1 second EXACTLY before they start torso twisting, thus allowing the IS mech full damage while spreading half of the Clanners damage. No. Instead, they'll both be bearing down head on if they're not that good, or they'll both be twisting to spread damage if they are. Either way, the Clanner is putting out more DPS and will on average outdamage the IS mech. It's that simple.

Remember, Clans v IS had a 90/10 win percentage in favor of the Clans. That didn't happen because all of their weapons are so terribad that anyone can simply "negate" their damage. No, that happened because they put out more DPS from farther out with almost minimal heat increases as the only "downside" (that's not really a downside).

Edited by Doctor Proctor, 10 August 2014 - 11:35 AM.

[TB Freelancer]

Doctor Proctor, on 09 August 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:

Fact is, your proposed change actually increases the damage of the CERLL for a minor increase in heat compared to the IS version while still maintaining superiority to the IS versions in every way. And hell, I didn't even look at the pre-nerf numbers for that comparison to see how OP the damn thing used to be. Clanner can't sit here and keep saying "Oh, it's not P2W and it's not OP" when they only changes they're comfortable with still maintain advantages in every single area over the IS counterparts for only a token increase in their heat that will barely be a blip on their heat scale. Please...

Problem is 9/10 guys here won't even comprehend what your saying.

[Odins Fist]

2 second beam duration is a pathetic joke.

[Tharnes]

Odins Fist, on 10 August 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

2 second beam duration is a pathetic joke.

The real joke is that CML are still not balanced yet.

[BLOOD WOLF]

my main problem is just the increased beam duration. It does need an extra 2 seconds.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Doctor Proctor, on 10 August 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

At 500m and ISLL will not do full damage, nor will an ISML, while the CERLL will and the CERML will be taking a minor damage despite being the "close range" weapon of the two. Additionally, I play Brawlers mostly and I can tell you that most engagements don't get to under 500m until well into the match and after multiple mechs have died typcially. That means that the 500+ range weapons are doing plenty of damage to kill, and the Clan variants especially are still maintaining their full damage much farther out.

I too also play brawlers and aside from Alpine, never have an issue getting in under 500m or even closer if I need to, often without taking any damage getting there. You just use terrain to your advantage, simple as that.

As far as several mechs dying at longer ranges, well duh yeah it happens simply because long range mechs are dueling long range mechs at that point. Sure plenty of damage is going on here but that is because people with long range weapons want to fight at long range. However, as I mention above, you can pretty my dictate the range you want to fight in. Getting in under 150m well that it tough but 200-400m isn't difficult in most matches.

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No, because the Clan version matches the heat efficiency of the IS weapon while still maintaining higher DPS and higher range. That's not "balance", that's clearly superior. What was supposed to happen is that the Clans would be hampered by higher heat, thus making heat management more important and forcing them to make their shots count instead of spamming them. The weight and slot savings completely negate this disadvantage, thus making it superior in EVERY SINGLE WAY other than heat, where they're about equal. And this is post nerf.

Ok you completely lost me on how the Clan weapons are doing higher DPS. 11.25 damage over 2.0 seconds is lower DPS than 9 damage over 1 second. That is simple math. Also Clans are suppose to be crippled by heat, I am not sure where you get that from.

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Again, as I pointed out before, DPS is the burn time plus cycle time. When you do that the DPS are much closer, and in fact superior for the clans. Yes they still have to hold their fire longer, but this isn't all that much of a problem in most engagements. They're typically mounting significantly more firepower than an IS counterpart and will win the engagement.

And as I pointed out, the IS laser is done firing and 33% through its cycle before the clan weapons pulse has even ended. They both have a 3 second cool down, however the cooldown does start until after the burn completes. This means the IS ER LL fire once ever 4 seconds and clan ER LL fires once every 5 seconds. That is a 20% reduction right there and doesn't even account for all the other disadvantages as I mentioned earlier.

This leads to another point, one of the first things you have to get into your head is that there is a big difference between theoretic and practical application. You throw the two weapons into a lab and compare them against a stationary piece of FF armor 100m a way, fire them a few times, then compare and yeah they seem fairly close. Take them out of that lab and put them on moving mechs in a combat environment and things start changing immensely. A 1 second difference is a long time. It is time for an enemy to twist. It is time for them to get into cover. It is time for you to step in a crater that throws off you aim. It is time for one of your teammates to run into your line of fire. It is time that you have to be exposed to enemy fire. It is time for one of the enemies weapons to recycle and manage to get in a killing blow. These factors don't show up in a lab.

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Also, torso twisting doesn't "negate" anything, it distributes the damage. You're still taking it. So instead of in the CT it gets spread across say CT, RT and RA. Guess what, eventually you'll lose that right arm, which probably has a weapon in it. Or you'll lose that RT, which could be an outright kill for the Clanner if the IS mech is running an XL. Damage is damage, and nothing in this game "negates" it other than a total miss.

Ok lets go with your language. It "distributes" damage. Fine I can work with that. If only manage to do 100 damage but I can "distribute" damage to the point where while I might have took 300 damage, lost both arms and a leg but am still alive and your dead, who wins the match?

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That Clanner mech can torso twist too you know, which means he's distributing damage as well. Between two similarly skilled pilots they're not going to just face each other for 1 second EXACTLY before they start torso twisting, thus allowing the IS mech full damage while spreading half of the Clanners damage. No. Instead, they'll both be bearing down head on if they're not that good, or they'll both be twisting to spread damage if they are. Either way, the Clanner is putting out more DPS and will on average outdamage the IS mech. It's that simple.

Again your logic doesn't make sense.

IS vs Clan - both mechs using their respective ER LLs as armaments. Both start off by firing at each other.

After 1 second, IS mech does 9 damage to Clan CT and begins to twist. At this point Clan mech only manages 5.625 damage to IS mech. IS lasers start refreshing. Clan laser starts to "distribute damage to IS RT.

2 seconds in. Clan laser finishes pulse doing distributed damage to CT, RT and RA. Total damage 6 damage to CT, 3 damage to RT, 2.25 damage to RA. Clan laser starts to refresh. IS laser 33% through recycle, mech has also started cooling process and has cooled for 1 second. Clan mech doesn't twist because he is not currently taking fire.

4 seconds in, IS laser ready to fire. IS mech twists torso back to firing position and engages Clan mech. Clan mech now has two options, twist and ruin his aim or hold for an additional second and return fire.

Scenerio 1: twist.

Clan mech starts taking fire and he begins to twist. Because the IS burn time is so short, he only manages a half twist distributing half the damage between CT and half on his RT. IS mech begins twist immediately after burn time ceases so by the time Clan mech returns to fire position IS mech has already got his torso twisted and CT protected. Clan mech fires full 2 second burst into IS mechs arm for 11.25 damage.

Results so far.

IS: took 6 damage to CT, 3 damage to RT and 13.5 damage to RA. Arm is a bit hurt but the vulnerable CT and potentially RT are barely scratched. Also he can twist to the other side the next round.

Clan: took 13.5 damage to CT and 4.5 to RT. So the Clan mech took more than 4x the damage to CT. Given equal armor, it isn't hard to see the outcome of this pattern.

Scenario 2: hold and fire.

Clan mech starts taking fire to its CT. 1 second later it begins to fire but by this time has taken 9 more damage to CT. IS mech has started his twist again but this time to the other side. He again takes 6 damage to the CT but the other damage goes to this left side, 3 to the LT and 2.25 to the LA.

IS: took 12 CT damage. 3 RT damage, 3 LT damage, 2.25 RA damage, and 2.25 LA damage.

Clan: Took 18 damage to CT.

Ok so better result but as you can see even though the Clan mech is doing more damage, the IS mech is STILL going to kill the Clan mech much faster than it can kill him.

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Remember, Clans v IS had a 90/10 win percentage in favor of the Clans. That didn't happen because all of their weapons are so terribad that anyone can simply "negate" their damage. No, that happened because they put out more DPS from farther out with almost minimal heat increases as the only "downside" (that's not really a downside).

No you are right. There probably needs to be some balancing done though I also think that win percentage was highly skewed by many IS pilots who gave up before even trying. Saw it happen myself time and time again. Half on the IS side complaining about it being a loss before it even began or how Clan mechs were OPed. Then some discoed and quit, others just rushed into the enemy and died to "qet it over with", leaving maybe half the team to actually "Try" to win. Yeah really good data there. Having 50% of every IS team give up before the match started pretty much guaranteed Clan mechs would win at least 75% of their matches.

[Sandpit]

Viktor Drake, on 10 August 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

No you are right. There probably needs to be some balancing done though I also think that win percentage was highly skewed by many IS pilots who gave up before even trying. Saw it happen myself time and time again. Half on the IS side complaining about it being a loss before it even began or how Clan mechs were OPed. Then some discoed and quit, others just rushed into the enemy and died to "qet it over with", leaving maybe half the team to actually "Try" to win. Yeah really good data there. Having 50% of every IS team give up before the match started pretty much guaranteed Clan mechs would win at least 75% of their matches.

everyone except PGI and the "clans are op" crowd saw it

[MischiefSC]

Anecdotal excuses of "people didnt try" are not going to actually account for a 90/10 split. Elo variance was 40 to 90 points - that equates to a max 5-10% win/loss variance.

Clans are op, overall. My twolf literally packs viable dps like a banshee but at 90 kph. In a clan vs is context clans are significantly better.

That doesnt mean the right fix is longer beam durations though.

Damage and range dow, heat up. Positive tweaks to is chassis.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

They probably should have extended the cool down instead. FF from those is up for sure.

[BLOOD WOLF]

MischiefSC, on 10 August 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

Anecdotal excuses of "people didnt try" are not going to actually account for a 90/10 split. Elo variance was 40 to 90 points - that equates to a max 5-10% win/loss variance.

Clans are op, overall. My twolf literally packs viable dps like a banshee but at 90 kph. In a clan vs is context clans are significantly better.

That doesnt mean the right fix is longer beam durations though.

Damage and range dow, heat up. Positive tweaks to is chassis.

Even with the increased duration my Prime still has a 700-900 damage potential in a match. need need to put the duration back to where it was and just keep the heat penalty

just had 4 matches with my Prime and S,C configuration. damage always above 500

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 10 August 2014 - 03:20 PM.

[Sephlock]

El Bandito, on 10 August 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

On that note, CERML needs to be looked at. Currently it is having all the benefits of the ER family with very little of the actual drawbacks. Very strong weapon for 1 ton and 1 slot.

Shhhhh.

Leave my Nova alone.

That first Nova-specific nerf already crippled my beloved Gravimetric Blasters



We don't need another.

[Sprouticus]

MischiefSC, on 10 August 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

Anecdotal excuses of "people didnt try" are not going to actually account for a 90/10 split. Elo variance was 40 to 90 points - that equates to a max 5-10% win/loss variance.

Clans are op, overall. My twolf literally packs viable dps like a banshee but at 90 kph. In a clan vs is context clans are significantly better.

That doesnt mean the right fix is longer beam durations though.

Damage and range dow, heat up. Positive tweaks to is chassis.

'clans are OP' is a terrible statement mischief.

If you are going to say something is OP, state WHAT is OP. The majority of clan mechs and weapons are NOT OP.

The TW is OP
The cERML is OP

Fix those two things and the clans are in a really good spot IMO.

If they really go to 12v10 for clan vs IS, you dont even have to change those two things.

[Sandpit]

MischiefSC, on 10 August 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

Anecdotal excuses of "people didnt try" are not going to actually account for a 90/10 split. Elo variance was 40 to 90 points - that equates to a max 5-10% win/loss variance.

Clans are op, overall. My twolf literally packs viable dps like a banshee but at 90 kph. In a clan vs is context clans are significantly better.

That doesnt mean the right fix is longer beam durations though.

Damage and range dow, heat up. Positive tweaks to is chassis.

no that doesn't but
it plays into it artificially inflating that gap
then you have the large section of new players on the IS side that does that as well
then you have the large section of "not new because they played 25 matches" contributing to that as well
then you have players in trial mechs that aren't going to hold up well against "good" IS builds much less "good" clan builds contributing to that.

You simply cannot get meaningful data like that

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

10 vs 12 is how CW should work.

Frankly solo pugging is and should be you get what you get. Everybody already brings whatever. Trying to balance for those free for all's is actually pretty much impossible without making the game as it stands too unfriendly to actually play.

They need to kick CW into gear so the hard core fans can have the hardcore game and the casuals just that, casual.

[CyclonerM]

Mind, getting used to that is not impossible but i feel 2 secs are just too much.. Friendly fire is easier to happen too.

[Sandpit]

Bartholomew bartholomew, on 10 August 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

10 vs 12 is how CW should work.

Frankly solo pugging is and should be you get what you get. Everybody already brings whatever. Trying to balance for those free for all's is actually pretty much impossible without making the game as it stands too unfriendly to actually play.

They need to kick CW into gear so the hard core fans can have the hardcore game and the casuals just that, casual.

10v12 would be nothing more than IS stomping clans and clans taking only the heaviest they possibly can to counter the numbers advantage. You might as well kiss light mechs goodbye and mediums as well (unless hard coded and required for launch in which case that just furthers the stomps)

[MischiefSC]

Clans, overall, are op. The clan xl and their ability to customize hardpoints. Combine that with significantly better energy weapons and, yeah. Clans are a bit op.

10 v 12 is a fundamentally flawed premise. Clans need 12 v 12 balance.

Acs and missiles are good. Energy and durability needs a balance. Energy damage and range dialed bacl for lasers. IS needs a lot of chassis specific buffs.

[keith]

pgi should just go back to the drawing broad with clan lasers. longer dots are not the solution. staring at a mech for 2 sec for 22 dam, lets assume er med get nerf to 1.5 sec and down to 3 for ghost heat(most of u know i'm right). thats 1.5 sec for 21 dam when IS mechs can pin point easily for 30 dam. something else needs to be done