129 replies to this topic

[King Arthur IV]

Wolfways, on 09 August 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

A stupid point, but still a point.

this is a point too .

Edited by King Arthur IV, 09 August 2014 - 09:52 PM.

[Ultimax]

El Bandito, on 09 August 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:

Except it is totally unfair that 6 tons worth of CERML gets you 42 damage with almost twice the range--up to 900 meters, in fact. That's basically saying "Up yours" to the IS LL and ML.

It's unfair that my engines are locked, my DHS in that engine are locked - or there are none and none can be slotted.

It's unfair that my nova has 3 more JJs than it needs.

It's unfair that structure and armor are also locked.

It's unfair that clan ballistic are heavy spread damage weapons, with ZERO pinpoint options like the IS has outside of Gauss.




Until you are capable of recognizing those build drawbacks, you will continually be arguing from a flawed perspective.




So go cry me a river.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 09 August 2014 - 09:54 PM.

[El Bandito]

Ultimatum X, on 09 August 2014 - 09:53 PM, said:

It's unfair that my engines are locked, my DHS in that engine are locked - or there are none and none can be slotted. It's unfair that my nova has 3 more JJs than it needs. It's unfair that structure and armor are also locked. It's unfair that clan ballistic are heavy spread damage weapons, with ZERO pinpoint options like the IS has. Until you are capable of recognizing those build drawbacks, you will continually be arguing from a flawed perspective. So go cry me a river.

I'm not talking about mechs, cause IS mechs got their own share of heavy disadvantages such as vulnerable XL, twice as large internals and FF, and lack of omnipods, THREE crit DHS, and even their hardpoints are very limited.

I am talking about weapons themselves. Plus Clans still has CGauss, which is flat out superior to the IS Gauss.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 August 2014 - 07:06 AM.

[Ultimax]

El Bandito, on 09 August 2014 - 09:55 PM, said:

I'm not talking about mechs, cause IS mechs got their own share of heavy disadvantages. I am talking about weapons themselves.

And again, that is why you are wrong and why your entire argument is flawed.

You can't separate the weapons from the mechs that they are being slotted into, because their builds have dictates that are completely different from mechs that can customize their engine size, armor, structure, have no hard locked DHS, no hard locked Jump Jets.

[Sandpit]

Ultimatum X, on 09 August 2014 - 09:57 PM, said:

And again, that is why you are wrong and why your entire argument is flawed.

You can't separate the weapons from the mechs that they are being slotted into, because their builds have dictates that are completely different from mechs that can customize their engine size, armor, structure, have no hard locked DHS, no hard locked Jump Jets.

no, that's just not true.

nerfing a weapon around how it performs heavily boated and.or in conjunction with another weapon MIGHT prevent it from working in an "op" fashion for that singular example, but it ruins it for those that DON'T use it in that manner. You have to balance weapons based on the weapon, not the mechs that can use them.
That means your'e balancing on an assault level which generally severely hurts the light level who simply don't have the tonnage to boat or use those weapon combos, therefore they get nerfed into the ground in those instnaces

[Ultimax]

El Bandito, on 09 August 2014 - 09:55 PM, said:

Plus Clans still has CGauss, which is flat out superior to the IS Gauss.

Are you really having this much trouble with this, or are you being purposefully obtuse?

The mechs that can carry it have tonnage already spoken for.


Even being THREE TONS LIGHTER PER GAUSS, you can't even fit 2x Clan Gauss +5 Tons ammo + 2x Medium Lasers onto a Timber Wolf.

Or have you not wondered why you rarely ever see Dual Gauss Timber Wolves?

I can do all 3 of those things on a Jager Mech, which is a mech ten tons lighter, because I can customize the entire build, because the Jagermech has more than 28 tons of available if it wants to.


In fact an 85 ton Warhawk can only fit 1 energy backup weapon, due to hardpoint limitations.

That's why the only "Dual Gauss" build you even see with any regularity clan side is Dual Gauss Dire Wolf.

Sandpit, on 09 August 2014 - 10:02 PM, said:

nerfing a weapon around how it performs heavily boated and.or in conjunction with another weapon MIGHT prevent it from working in an "op" fashion for that singular example, but it ruins it for those that DON'T use it in that manner. You have to balance weapons based on the weapon, not the mechs that can use them.
That means your'e balancing on an assault level which generally severely hurts the light level who simply don't have the tonnage to boat or use those weapon combos, therefore they get nerfed into the ground in those instnaces

You are on a different topic.

Many players have their confirmation bias blinders strapped on so tight they are losing brain cells.

The point is that you can't compare 1 IS weapon vs. 1 Clan weapon in a straight up comparison because:

1) Each of those weapons belong to completely different weapon ecosystems.
2) The platforms available for those weapons have different rules for customizing.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 09 August 2014 - 10:25 PM.

[El Bandito]

Ultimatum X, on 09 August 2014 - 10:03 PM, said:

Are you really having this much trouble with this, or are you being purposefully obtuse? The mechs that can carry it have tonnage already spoken for. Even being THREE TONS LIGHTER PER GAUSS, you can't even fit 2x Clan Gauss +5 Tons ammo + 2x Medium Lasers onto a Timber Wolf. Or have you not wondered why you rarely ever see Dual Gauss Timber Wolves? I can do all 3 of those things on a Jager Mech, which is 5 a mech tons lighter, because I can customize the entire build, because the Jagermech has more than 28 tons of available if it wants to.

Just pointing out the fact you were mistaken about the lack of PP ballistics in the Clan arsenal, in your previous post. Don't piss in yer pants.

Ultimatum X, on 09 August 2014 - 09:57 PM, said:

And again, that is why you are wrong and why your entire argument is flawed. You can't separate the weapons from the mechs that they are being slotted into, because their builds have dictates that are completely different from mechs that can customize their engine size, armor, structure, have no hard locked DHS, no hard locked Jump Jets.

And this underlined part is just wrong. Weapon balancing, separated from the mech, is possible and ideal.

Edited by El Bandito, 09 August 2014 - 10:10 PM.

[Ultimax]

El Bandito, on 09 August 2014 - 10:06 PM, said:

And this underlined part is just wrong. Weapon balancing, separated from the mech, is possible and ideal. There is a reason why by nerfing the PPC Stalkers, PGI had ****** over the Awesome.

Those are both IS mechs under the same customization rule set.


Go ahead, build me a Dual Gauss Timber Wolf.
2 mlas backup
5 to 6 tons ammo
1 JJ (CTF-3D can do this)

You get 6 free tons in weight savings through Clan Gauss over the Jager Mech and CTF versions, who can fit those things and the Timber Wolf is 75 tons vs. their 65/70 tons.

So this should be a breeze.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 09 August 2014 - 10:15 PM.

[Kaspirikay]

I don't feel the fear that Clan Mechs should give. When I see one, all I do is torso twist and most of the time, I'll walk out of the fight victorious in orange armor.

[El Bandito]

Ultimatum X, on 09 August 2014 - 10:13 PM, said:

Those are both IS mechs under the same customization rule set. Go ahead, build me a Dual Gauss Timber Wolf. 2 mlas backup 5 to 6 tons ammo You get 6 free tons over the Jager Mech and CTF version, who can fit all of those things. So this should be a breeze.

And that Jager has paper thin armor and dies in a slight breeze to the ST. Jager pays dearly for the dual Gauss.

Back to the point: My issue is with the CERML--which is not limited in anyway and is very advantageous peace of equipment for its cost. It has the range of LLaser with none of the extra weight and has much better DPS, and DPS to HPS ratio than the regular ML. It's only drawback, the extra 0.3 second duration is not enough to offset its overwhelming advantage.

Edited by El Bandito, 09 August 2014 - 10:24 PM.

[Sandpit]

Ultimatum X, on 09 August 2014 - 10:05 PM, said:

The point is that you can't compare 1 IS weapon vs. 1 Clan weapon in a straight up comparison

oh, I actually agree with that lol

Both techs have their pros and cons

[Ultimax]

El Bandito, on 09 August 2014 - 10:14 PM, said:

And that Jager has paper thin armor and dies in a slight breeze to the ST. Jager pays dearly for the dual Gauss.

Mine has 368 armor.

All torsos are maxed.


I didn't say you couldn't shave armor off the Timber Wolf, go for it.


Or are you unwilling to try?

Edited by Ultimatum X, 09 August 2014 - 10:23 PM.

[Pjwned]

Ultimatum X, on 09 August 2014 - 10:13 PM, said:

Those are both IS mechs under the same customization rule set.


Go ahead, build me a Dual Gauss Timber Wolf.
2 mlas backup
5 to 6 tons ammo
1 JJ (CTF-3D can do this)

You get 6 free tons in weight savings through Clan Gauss over the Jager Mech and CTF versions, who can fit those things and the Timber Wolf is 75 tons vs. their 65/70 tons.

So this should be a breeze.

You're basically saying* that a mech not designed to use dual gauss can't use dual gauss, and that jager build is not very practical unless you want to be about as slow as a dire wolf and/or have significant chunks of armor missing, or simply just use an XL engine but that's a huge vulnerability, one that the timber wolf does not share either. Meanwhile looking at the timber wolf it has more than respectable speed for its size and can still easily have 2 pinpoint high damage weapons (gauss + ER PPC) and still have room & enough heatsinks for some backup weapons and have jumpjets which the jager can't.

Edited by Pjwned, 09 August 2014 - 11:11 PM.

[Sandpit]

Ultimatum X, on 09 August 2014 - 10:13 PM, said:

Those are both IS mechs under the same customization rule set.


Go ahead, build me a Dual Gauss Timber Wolf.
2 mlas backup
5 to 6 tons ammo
1 JJ (CTF-3D can do this)

You get 6 free tons in weight savings through Clan Gauss over the Jager Mech and CTF versions, who can fit those things and the Timber Wolf is 75 tons vs. their 65/70 tons.

So this should be a breeze.

ILYA MUROMETS
70 tons is closer no?

[El Bandito]

Ultimatum X, on 09 August 2014 - 10:21 PM, said:

Mine has 368 armor. All torsos are maxed. I didn't say you couldn't shave armor off the Timber Wolf, go for it. Or are you unwilling to try?

And all that does not mean crap since your Jager has crap XL, and crap speed and no JJs. The point still stands. Clan and IS mechs both have their ups and downs. Weapons should be balanced separately.

It might not be fair to compare IS and Clan weapons 1v1 but look at the CERML stats, I mean really look at it, and tell me that it should function with such efficiency with only 1 ton and 1 crit as cost. The weapon is unbalanced, and I am all about bringing balance.

Edited by El Bandito, 09 August 2014 - 10:29 PM.

[MischiefSC]

I have no issue with CERLLs being gimped up close when there is a comparable weapon for shorter range. That is not LPLs; LPLs for both Clans and IS are a means of PGI trolling people. 'If we make everything else bad enough I bet I can get people to use LPLs. Those have always been terrible. Instead of fixing them though we'll just make everything else WORSE! LOL!'

That's how PGI used to do it. It seems like that changed. Now we get this.

Meh.

PPC change was good. PPCs are an energy AC10. That's a positive change.

Gimping the primary Clan energy weapon though? It needs brought down. It was OP from the start and I said so, as did many others.

I support the Ultimatum X fix.

Cuz it is better.

[Ultimax]

Pjwned, on 09 August 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

You're basically complaining that a mech not designed to use dual gauss can't use dual gauss, and that jager build is not very practical

1) I'm refuting his point. I'm not complaining. You can't nerf clan weapons on a 1 vs. 1 IS weapon basis without looking at the whole picture.

2) The Jager build is completely practical. Mine travels 71 kph, please see screenshot above for what can be done with it.

3) Why isn't the Timber Wolf designed to use dual gauss? It has multiple ballistic hardpoints, just like the Jager and Cataphracts. What says those mechs are "designed" to dual gauss but the TBR is not?


Nothing, aside from the innate restrictions Clan Mechs have in customizable tonnage.

I'm fine with that trade off, but it is a trade off.

[TB Freelancer]

Zolaz, on 09 August 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

When you see a weapon nerfed into an unplayable state, it is because their is a conscious desire to drive you away from the weapon. Or, whoever is doing the nerfing is incompetent. You just have to improvise, adapt and over come.

Not unplayable. Just requires a higher skill cap to be as effective with it as you were....

...IF you have what it takes.

Personally I'm noticing a slight degradation in performance. I've only had half a dozen 6+ kill rounds since the change using them.

[Ultimax]

Sandpit, on 09 August 2014 - 10:24 PM, said:

ILYA MUROMETS
70 tons is closer no?

Go for the 70 tons.

Now show us the Timber Wolf version.

El Bandito, on 09 August 2014 - 10:27 PM, said:

And all that does not mean crap since your Jager has crap XL, and crap speed and no JJs. The point still stands. Clan and IS mechs both have their ups and downs. Weapons should be balanced separately.

It might not be fair to compare IS and Clan weapons 1v1 but look at the CERML stats, I mean really look at it, and tell me that it should function with such efficiency with only 1 ton and 1 crit as cost.

More excuses.

More evasion.


You can argue the points, and put your money where you mouth is and accept the build challenge - or you are just full of hot air.


Which is it?

Edited by Ultimatum X, 09 August 2014 - 10:31 PM.

[Pjwned]

Ultimatum X, on 09 August 2014 - 10:28 PM, said:

1) I'm refuting his point. I'm not complaining. You can't nerf clan weapons on a 1 vs. 1 IS weapon basis without looking at the whole picture.

Fair enough, poor choice of words but you were the one that brought up mechs not designed to use 2 colossal ballistic weapons that can't use 2 of them effectively while seeming to ignore other very viable options.

Quote

2) The Jager build is completely practical. Mine travels 71 kph, please see screenshot above for what can be done with it.

That's only possible with an XL engine, I'm not saying that's a wrong build but when talking about how the jager is so much better at a certain build it seems disingenuous to not mention the XL engine, which is a large vulnerability and something that the timber wolf pilot is largely unconcerned with due to their souped up clan XL engines.

Quote

3) Why isn't the Timber Wolf designed to use dual gauss? It has multiple ballistic hardpoints, just like the Jager and Cataphracts. What says those mechs are "designed" to dual gauss but the TBR is not?


Nothing, aside from the innate restrictions Clan Mechs have in customizable tonnage.

I'm fine with that trade off, but it is a trade off.

The restrictions are not inane, it keeps them from being rampantly overpowered.

Edited by Pjwned, 09 August 2014 - 10:42 PM.