61 replies to this topic

[nehebkau]

Matchmaker has a fatal flaw that will need to be addressed, specially if we go full clan vs. IS and 10 vs 12. The simple flaw is that MM doesn't take into account what mech a player is using vs their ELO.

Let me explain:
Lets say we have two players, each with identical very high ELOs and identical skills who are dropping in the solo queue. Player 1 drops in a kitfox and player 2 drops in a Timberwolf. Red team gets player1 and blue team gets player2. Which team has gotten the advantage? Lets continue, to offset those high ELO players MM picks to other players with very low ELO, Player 3 is driving a Timberwolf and Player 4 is driving a kitfox. Player 3 gets put on the red team and player 4 gets put on the blue team. Which team has gotten the advantage?


Before we start the whole kitfox could have ECM, timber wolf could just have small lasers, kitfox could be a NARCing machine, etc.etc. that BS clouds the issue and if you partake in it, you are doing the game a disservice. Likewise starting with the battle value crap will simply cause the devs to shut-down because its too complex for them deal with at this moment. (Please remember *KISS*! Battle value may be a good idea but it would take PGI a year to get around to it)

Now, on the surface which team has the advantage from the start? Identical skill players, identical ELO. One is dropping in a 30 ton mech, the other in a 75 ton mech. I say that the team who got the High ELO player in the timberwolf has the advantage. Now the very bad players added, one in a 30 ton (blue team) and one in a 75 ton (red team).

What I think this shows is that effectively, the blue team will have a huge disadvantage because MM didn't take into account weight at drop. This is probably not a big problem in the group queus but I think MM should normalize ELO based on weight at drop (I searched the forums but I can find no mention by PGI that this is taken into consideration in this way), specially in the solo drop queue.

[CocoaJin]

It'll never be totally perfect, even if it was perfect, you'd have to expect to lose 50% of the time anyway.

The important lesson to be learned here is that sometime you just have to man up and fight the good fight...let's just consider the MM character building.

On that note...

Edited by CocoaJin, 16 August 2014 - 09:35 AM.

[Lefty Lucy]

CocoaJin, on 16 August 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

It'll never be totally perfect, even if it was perfect, you'd have to expect to lose 50% of the time anyway.

The important lesson to be learned here is that sometime you just have to man up and fight the good fight...let's just consider the MM character building.

On that note...

Also the match maker can only work with what we give it. Low player populations means less balanced matches.

[MischiefSC]

The ideal Elo score would vary a bit depending on mech, chassis and loadout - plus the loadout of your teammates and the loadout of the enemy team.

Which would still have a tiny impact on who actually gets pulled into what match, as you'd need a huge (like 100k or more) dropping population to have enough people trying to drop in the same 120 seconds for it to get that granular on filling matches.

I get the concept but for the time being Elo by weight class is a better mix of effort vs reward for the MM. Drilling down on it would take a lot of work and provide very minimal results.

[Scratx]

IIRC, everyone has an ELO per weight category.

[Khobai]

youd think the fatal flaw would be the fact ELO doesnt even work in 12v12.

or the fact tonnage matching isnt prioritized above everything else.

[MischiefSC]

Khobai, on 16 August 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

youd think the fatal flaw would be the fact ELO doesnt even work in 12v12.

or the fact tonnage matching isnt prioritized above everything else.

Electric Light Orchestra probably doesn't play too well in 12v12 because there were not 12 people in the band I guess?

Elo, the ranking system, works just fine. Unless you have some mathematical insight you'd like to share with Microsoft and, well, every other purveyor or ranking systems in the world. Or statisticians, or statistical analysts.

Which you don't, and we've had this discussion before.

[Sephlock]

MischiefSC, on 16 August 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

Electric Light Orchestra probably doesn't play too well in 12v12 because there were not 12 people in the band I guess?

Elo, the ranking system, works just fine. Unless you have some mathematical insight you'd like to share with Microsoft and, well, every other purveyor or ranking systems in the world. Or statisticians, or statistical analysts.

Which you don't, and we've had this discussion before.

Are you the guy on reddit just pointed out the same ELO/Elo thing ?

[MischiefSC]

Sephlock, on 16 August 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

Are you the guy on reddit just pointed out the same ELO/Elo thing ?

I don't play on reddit. Not my thing

The whole ELO/Elo bit though... that's not new.

[Adiuvo]

Ideally the game will be balanced so that both mechs can have the same impact on the game, though in different ways.

[Lefty Lucy]

MischiefSC, on 16 August 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

Electric Light Orchestra probably doesn't play too well in 12v12 because there were not 12 people in the band I guess?

Elo, the ranking system, works just fine. Unless you have some mathematical insight you'd like to share with Microsoft and, well, every other purveyor or ranking systems in the world. Or statisticians, or statistical analysts.

Which you don't, and we've had this discussion before.

Some people just don't understand that you can't argue against math.

[Alistair Winter]

I have no faith that PGI will ever manage to create a good matchmaker that prevents stomps. The only thing I want is to play with other veteran players who know how the game works. Just make 3 divisions. 0-500 matches played. 500-1000 matches played. 1000+ matches played.

Yeah, some people still suck after 1000 matches. But by then, they usually know about LRM minimum range, they know why they should press R, they know what RTB means.. they may even know that running off alone in a Dire Wolf is a bad idea. Just let me play with people who know the game. I don't care if they can't hit the torso of an AWS-8Q from 50 meters.

Adiuvo, on 16 August 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

Ideally the game will be balanced so that both mechs can have the same impact on the game, though in different ways.

Don't talk crazy.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Lefty Lucy, on 16 August 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

Also the match maker can only work with what we give it. Low player populations means less balanced matches.

Good job this game is healthy and has a massive player base.

[MischiefSC]

Alistair Winter, on 16 August 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

I have no faith that PGI will ever manage to create a good matchmaker that prevents stomps. The only thing I want is to play with other veteran players who know how the game works. Just make 3 divisions. 0-500 matches played. 500-1000 matches played. 1000+ matches played.

Yeah, some people still suck after 1000 matches. But by then, they usually know about LRM minimum range, they know why they should press R, they know what RTB means.. they may even know that running off alone in a Dire Wolf is a bad idea. Just let me play with people who know the game. I don't care if they can't hit the torso of an AWS-8Q from 50 meters.


Don't talk crazy.

matches played don't matter. You can't prevent stomps - they are a byproduct of team vs team play. That dynamic creates stomps, not Elo. Are you saying stomps never happen in competitive team play?

[Cylian]

You'd get too many C-Bills in balanced matches.

[CocoaJin]

Adiuvo, on 16 August 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

Ideally the game will be balanced so that both mechs can have the same impact on the game, though in different ways.

Ideally the gaming consumer base wouldn't be compromised so heavily with people of such weak constitution and immaturity.

Edited by CocoaJin, 16 August 2014 - 12:10 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

nehebkau, on 16 August 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:

Matchmaker has a fatal flaw that will need to be addressed, specially if we go full clan vs. IS and 10 vs 12. The simple flaw is that MM doesn't take into account what mech a player is using vs their ELO.

Let me explain:
Lets say we have two players, each with identical very high ELOs and identical skills who are dropping in the solo queue. Player 1 drops in a kitfox and player 2 drops in a Timberwolf. Red team gets player1 and blue team gets player2. Which team has gotten the advantage? Lets continue, to offset those high ELO players MM picks to other players with very low ELO, Player 3 is driving a Timberwolf and Player 4 is driving a kitfox. Player 3 gets put on the red team and player 4 gets put on the blue team. Which team has gotten the advantage?


Before we start the whole kitfox could have ECM, timber wolf could just have small lasers, kitfox could be a NARCing machine, etc.etc. that BS clouds the issue and if you partake in it, you are doing the game a disservice. Likewise starting with the battle value crap will simply cause the devs to shut-down because its too complex for them deal with at this moment. (Please remember *KISS*! Battle value may be a good idea but it would take PGI a year to get around to it)

Now, on the surface which team has the advantage from the start? Identical skill players, identical ELO. One is dropping in a 30 ton mech, the other in a 75 ton mech. I say that the team who got the High ELO player in the timberwolf has the advantage. Now the very bad players added, one in a 30 ton (blue team) and one in a 75 ton (red team).

What I think this shows is that effectively, the blue team will have a huge disadvantage because MM didn't take into account weight at drop. This is probably not a big problem in the group queus but I think MM should normalize ELO based on weight at drop (I searched the forums but I can find no mention by PGI that this is taken into consideration in this way), specially in the solo drop queue.

Probably has been mentioned before, but you have 4 different ELOs, one for each weight class. So your example of the T-Wolf Vs. KFX, doesn't actually work.

MischiefSC, on 16 August 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

I don't play on reddit. Not my thing

The whole ELO/Elo bit though... that's not new.

What's the ELO/Elo thing?

[MischiefSC]

IraqiWalker, on 16 August 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

Probably has been mentioned before, but you have 4 different ELOs, one for each weight class. So your example of the T-Wolf Vs. KFX, doesn't actually work.



What's the ELO/Elo thing?

ELO is a band - Electric Light Orchestra, from the 80s.

Elo is the name a matchmaker, named after the guy who invented it - Arpad Elo.

It's not 'E-L-O'. It's a name, Elo. Pronounced 'E-Low'.

People think that because it's a rating system it's supposed to be ELO.

Which is incorrect and generally means someone doesn't know anything about it, how or why it works.

[Lefty Lucy]

DV McKenna, on 16 August 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

Good job this game is healthy and has a massive player base.

Yes, that's why sometimes I end up dropping against the same people three games in a row

[Sephlock]

Lefty Lucy, on 16 August 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

Yes, that's why sometimes I end up dropping against the same people three games in a row

On the same map all 3 times !