946 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 August 2014 - 07:44 PM, said:

What about like the games Saturday. You and I ended up in drops together what 4-5 times? Did we sync drop? Can PGI prove we were not on TS3 together?

That's why you check exceptions against the login/logout. To do it on purpose you'd need to be syncing drops because you don't know where the queue is at for matches to fill. I find it unlikely you and I were hitting 'drop' within 30 seconds of each other even, it was just luck. Plus it happened the one time for 4 or 5 matches.

That's not really a good candidate for sync-dropping. The several people who seems to be hitting 'drop' at the same time again and again every friday night and happen to either be in or be alts of being in the same group? Yeah, easy call.

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 24 August 2014 - 07:40 PM, said:

Nah, that would still happen - just not all the time. You set a threshold of no more than, say, 4 shared matches every 12 hours or the like. Even if you hit it and it's worth looking at and they click the other tab and search your login/logout and find you were nowhere near synced it was just luck then you're golden.

The only time it would come up would be with people who were pretty clearly syncing.

Joseph Mallan, on 24 August 2014 - 07:44 PM, said:

What about like the games Saturday. You and I ended up in drops together what 4-5 times? Did we sync drop? Can PGI prove we were not on TS3 together?

All it would take for the whole things to break down is a few false positives. And when that happens, then what? Waste more time on it?

As I said earlier:

Mystere, on 23 August 2014 - 05:30 PM, said:

I think people are trying to make a mountain out of a grain of sand (a molehill is probably too big I think ).

Edited by Mystere, 24 August 2014 - 07:53 PM.

[Roland]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 August 2014 - 07:44 PM, said:

What about like the games Saturday. You and I ended up in drops together what 4-5 times? Did we sync drop? Can PGI prove we were not on TS3 together?

Honestly, with the idea mischief presented, even in that case you would just get put in separate games, perhaps just for some limited period of time.

If you aren't trying to sync drop, then you probably wouldn't even notice.. You certainly wouldn't be harmed by it.

Edited by Roland, 24 August 2014 - 07:54 PM.

[Lykaon]

Mudhutwarrior, on 23 August 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

It happens and its easy because i sat in on it myself. most often the drop goes more than well and most often the five man I was watching all ended up in lance order not on the other team.

Instead of alerting everyone to your inclination by shooting straight denials just instead discuss whether the practice if it exists or not should be banned along with those practicing it.

We went through the whole no one is synch dropping last year too. Multiple threads with the same guys coming back to say it never happens or is too difficult.

Of course when the Steiners started synch drop Fridays here on the forums that kind of made fools of the lot.

They never learn it seems.



Was explained to me a simple algorithm will see who and how many times they drop together or hit launch at the same time. Its actually very easy to do.. In solo que it becomes very easy

Ok so you are claiming that players are sycro dropping with such alarming frequency that it has become such a significant issue that it MUST be dealt with immediately.

But how can this be that as you claim 5 players can reliably get into the same match not only on the same team with all 5 but with 4 in the same lance?

So correct me if I'm wrong here but in order for this to happen all 5 players must...

No seriously how?

the match maker will take 5 individual entries into the match maker as seperate and distinct entries,calculate Elo apply the 3/3/3/3 mech class restrictions and then sort these 5 distinct entries and assign them to any teams being formated at the time of entry into the queue.

So,we have the following factors being applied to a queue entry.

1: mech class the 3/3/3/3 rule in effect
2: mech weight within class (solo queue matches attempt weight matches if I recall)
3: Elo of the player within that mech weight class
4: number of individual matches being assigned team members at the time of entry to the queue.

This would mean that to successfully syncro drop the matchmaker must..

Select all 5 entries for the same match,dispite 3/3/3/3 and Elo being obsticals.
Select all 5 entries for the same team (and as you claim the same lance?)

It just seems far more likely that 5 seperate entries would be assigned into match placement based more on Elo and mech class and weight than who pushed the launch button at the same time.

It just seem unlikely to be as serious as you claim.

[MischiefSC]

Mystere, on 24 August 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

All it would take for the whole things to break down is a few false positives. And when that happens, then what? Waste more time on it?

As I said earlier:

30 minutes of work a week, if that. You get too many false positives you up the threshold. It's that simple. You've got a lot of pug queue drops, how often do you drop with the same people repeatedly? We're not talking 3 times out of 30 matches, we're talking more like 3 in 6.

Almost never.

That's why you only run it 2 times a week; once in a blue moon can be ignored, it's about patterns. You don't chase every correlation. Honestly the point is deterrence not punishment - you'll notice there's no suspensions in my suggestion. Just splitting them up for a while. Have it age off every 30 or 60 days.

30 minutes a week I could shut down any sync dropping in the solo queue.

[Kjudoon]

I've taken some time to consider this thread after taking a much needed think about it.

It finally hit me as to why this is so aggravating and I've been considering it since the epiphany.

This discussion is not about sync drops and advantage or cheating.

It's about intent and the questioning of intent along with all the false allegations, presumptions, and nasty little demagoguery that has been swirling around it. Let's clear the air here first. All of us prime movers in this conversation have behaved badly at some point. Admit it, come to terms with it, own it and now, let's get past it. We need to get past this and look at the real issue under all this:

What is the real intent of Sync Dropping?

Is the intent to drop together in the solo queue the same every time? No. Some people have sync dropped in an attempt to create an unfair advantage. Others do it just to have fun. Some have done it to just do something goofy and entertain themselves. There have even been groups who do it to troll people just to be jerks.

Three video examples of sync drops, one for fun and two to troll people are out on youtube. One is by B33f who posted the 20 Spider sync drop. This drop actually got 20 members from the sync drop into match... all in trial spiders. It's hillarious and pottymouthed. Were they trying to troll anyone? Nope... Just seeing if it could be done and what could happen. I know their intent because I've played with those guys when things like this have happened. A great bunch.

Then you have the infamous "Goons Love Paul" video out there where the goons torment and troll Paul Inoye for a match. This is an example of a sync drop with bad intentions. Oh I forgot to mention the "Jenner Football" video where a group of foul mouthed guys go out to deliberately troll games by using collision and is a big reason why this mechanic was removed from the game. Again, the intent was to wreck the experience for others.

These three examples show three different intents. The first, to have fun and try something different. The second, to harass and make for a bad experience with developers. The last to show a broken mechanic and troll people with it.

Now, let's compare this to how we in the Seraphim run a Sync Drop event we call The Seraphim Scramble. Until this admission, nobody reading this thread probably realized it was happening either.

We, the Seraphim hold an event twice a week (and all weekend long due to the tournament) that sync drops in the solo queue. We have between 25-40 participants at any one time. They often spread across 3-7 matches on both sides and we beat the carbon cleaner out of each other and actually are looking to get each other. Our colonel even puts a bounty on himself for our unit's activity points for incentive to play with their teammates and enjoy meeting one another and increase group activity. These are generally for members who are not in organized companies and do not practice multiple times a week in 12mans. Often many of our members from companies will drop in with them, but they get into the same convoluted mess the rest of us are in... and it is good natured fun.

When we drop, its very clear we are against our equals in skill because our elo is measured individually. The fun comes in the gamble on who in our group we might face on the other side and how well we work together. These are not our 'ringers' or top flight pilots. In fact most of them are rookies to the unit, or new to the game. Will they work together? Yes, but the way we play it, all pilots on that map are in the same teamspeak channel, so when you coordinate, the other side learns it too and will use it against us.

Now... do you see why I would get upset when I am accused of 'cheating' by sync dropping? I am not a goon. I am not some jerk looking to harm people and get an advantage over others. I'm trying to find a way to enjoy this game with friends in a casual environment.

If matches become so scare because the player base grows, then this event probably go away because it wouldn't be fun anymore. Of course, this can be a bad thing because then only the broken group queue would be left eliminating the need to even be in teamspeak unless you were a competitive 12man because there is no casual play there unless you like getting kicked in the face repeatedly or if you're on the other side, just curbstomping your enemy for no challenge day in and out.

So the next time you say Sync Dropping is 'cheating', unethical, immoral, only for bad players, ruining the spirit of the queue... consider the intent of why sync drop is going on. PGI has created the incentive by giving in to what a few of the players wanted and has caused much poorer gameplay in the process because it ignored people who didn't want to be forced to play that way.

[MischiefSC]

No, PGI gave groups what they said they wanted - a queue where you can drop in groups of any size. Just like they gave 8 and 12man queues. You get your 2-4 man queues and the competitive players will just sync in that queue and you'll go back to sync-dropping in pugs and making the excuse that it's just 'no fun' in the group queue.

The group queue isn't broken. I play in it all the time. Everyone in this debate plays in it all the time, save probably Mystere. It works fine and is a ton of fun. This isn't about you not being 'ringers or ace pilots', it's about trying to game the system for an advantage.

And let's be absolutely crystal clear - that's what you're doing. You're not dropping in private matches, you're specifically wanting to play in groups against pugs. You're not looking for any experience other than that.

Avoiding that exact, precise and explicit situation is exactly and precisely why the solo queue was created. It was created and exists for only one and one exclusive purpose -

For people to play solo against other solo players. That you're on a team of 12 is a given - everyone is playing solo there. They are playing solo there because a lot of people don't like playing with or against groups when dropping solo. They got their own queue because it's the statistical majority of players and it's not completely balanced otherwise.

There is no justification. There is no good excuse. The last tournament was pretty close; it left no real options. For all other play there are tons of options. The conscious decision to avoid those options and the spacious statement that options are utterly and completely untenable just underlines the disingenuous nature of the argument.

I appreciate you walking back some stuff and I agree with a lot of what you said in your last post. I've never said that sync-dropping is DE DEBIL, however it's exploiting the matchmaker to get around an intentional limitation in the solo queue. Trying to say otherwise is being intentionally dishonest. Doubling-down on that just digs that hole deeper.

PGI has created a place to play in groups, with opponents of all skill ranges. PGI has created a place to play solo, with opponents of all skill ranges. There are no more 'stomps' in group queue than solo queue. What it really sounds like is more akin to pining for the old 2-4mans in the pug queue.

Hence, the repeated outcries against it. It's not defensible and you're trying to defend it.

[TKSax]

Mudhut is defiantly the boy who cried wolf, Dropped in a game with him a few weeks ago in the solo que. Alpine Peaks Assuat or Skirmish, at the start of the game I tell everyone to head to i9, someone else on the team mentions to hit any assault mechs or clan mecs that come up the hill as soon as you see them. We all get to i9 pretty quick, Mudhut's team starts coming to i9 in small groups, we judicially return fire, Mudhut accuses us of sync dropping, I mention that I am not even on teamspeak much less sync dropping, I ask in team chat if any one else is and say I was not going to publicize it, everyone replies no. He says He can tell because no one focus's fire that quick....

I would never deny sync dropping happens, it just does not happen or is succesfull as much as Mudhut would like to belive.

[Kjudoon]

Okay, Mischief, your mind's made up you are closed to all other thoughts and that means there is no reason to discuss this any further with you. You cannot, or will not consider anything beyond your own conclusions and that makes everything else you have to say just angry noise not worth listening to.

Edited by Kjudoon, 24 August 2014 - 10:00 PM.

[Roland]

Kjudoon, on 24 August 2014 - 09:28 PM, said:

What is the real intent of Sync Dropping?

Is the intent to drop together in the solo queue the same every time? No. Some people have sync dropped in an attempt to create an unfair advantage. Others do it just to have fun. Some have done it to just do something goofy and entertain themselves. There have even been groups who do it to troll people just to be jerks.

No dude, you are just trying to rationalize your actions.
You sync drop in order to drop together with your friends in the solo queue, to gain an advantage. That's it. That's the sole reason.

The other "reasons" you gave there are just obfuscations of that true reason. How can I say this with absolute certainty? Because they are all possible in the group queue, without going to the trouble of trying to sync drop.

Let's look at each one in turn, shall we?

Quote

Others do it just to have fun.

There is nothing intrinsically more fun about playing in the solo queue... The only thing that may make it "more fun" is that your competition is at a disadvantage, and thus you will win more games. And some people enjoy winning, even if their wins are unfairly gained, because they are able to fool themselves into thinking that their skill and not that advantage is why they won. Regardless, in this case, "to have fun" just translates into "to gain an advantage", because that is the only thing which is different in this regard in the solo queue compared to the group queue.

Quote

Some have done it to just do something goofy and entertain themselves.

Again, basically the exact same argument applies. There is nothing which prevents you from "being goofy" in the group queue. You are most certainly capable of running all kinds of goofy configurations in the group queue. There is absolutely nothing "serious" about the group queue.

So again, we are left with the case that you are choosing to sync drop in the solo queue, instead of the group queue, because the level of competition is lower, and it gives you an advantage. Thus, you can "be goofy" and perhaps still do better, as the advantage gained by sync dropping helps to counteract whatever "goofy" thing you are going.

That's the thing man, it all just boils down to the same thing.. which you yourself have clearly stated already.

You are sync dropping in the solo queue, because when you play in the group queue you lose. When you sync drop in the solo queue, you win more often.

Quote

Then you have the infamous "Goons Love Paul" video out there where the goons torment and troll Paul Inoye for a match. This is an example of a sync drop with bad intentions. Oh I forgot to mention the "Jenner Football" video where a group of foul mouthed guys go out to deliberately troll games by using collision and is a big reason why this mechanic was removed from the game. Again, the intent was to wreck the experience for others.

These weren't actually sync drops, as those matches took place before the poorly conceived team limit was put in place. The goons were simply playing together.

Quote

Now, let's compare this to how we in the Seraphim run a Sync Drop event we call The Seraphim Scramble. Until this admission, nobody reading this thread probably realized it was happening either.


We, the Seraphim hold an event twice a week (and all weekend long due to the tournament) that sync drops in the solo queue. We have between 25-40 participants at any one time. They often spread across 3-7 matches on both sides and we beat the carbon cleaner out of each other and actually are looking to get each other. Our colonel even puts a bounty on himself for our unit's activity points for incentive to play with their teammates and enjoy meeting one another and increase group activity. These are generally for members who are not in organized companies and do not practice multiple times a week in 12mans. Often many of our members from companies will drop in with them, but they get into the same convoluted mess the rest of us are in... and it is good natured fun.

You could just do this in the group queue... especially if you are looking to play against each other. Hell, if you wanted to play against each other, you could actually host private matches now and guarantee play against each other.

There's really nothing gained from sync dropping, other than getting put into matches where you have a clear advantage over disorganized pugs... and the fact that you are dropping with 25-40 people at the same time basically guarantees that you are going to end up with situations like that.

And clearly, you are well aware that such an advantage is going to arise, and you revel in it.

And yeah dude... once the unit tags are in the game, you're gonna get made fun of when people see it.

Quote

Now... do you see why I would get upset when I am accused of 'cheating' by sync dropping? I am not a goon. I am not some jerk looking to harm people and get an advantage over others. I'm trying to find a way to enjoy this game with friends in a casual environment.

That's exactly what you're doing man, you just are trying to rationalize it away. But that's exactly what you're doing.

Because you could totally do exactly the same thing and play in the group queue, and not get put into situations where you have advantages over disorganized pugs.

Quote

If matches become so scare because the player base grows, then this event probably go away because it wouldn't be fun anymore. Of course, this can be a bad thing because then only the broken group queue would be left eliminating the need to even be in teamspeak unless you were a competitive 12man because there is no casual play there unless you like getting kicked in the face repeatedly or if you're on the other side, just curbstomping your enemy for no challenge day in and out.

Again man, your perception of the group queue is ridiculous. It's not full of competitive 12 mans. The vast, VAST majority of groups playing in the group queue are small groups of casual players.

Quote

So the next time you say Sync Dropping is 'cheating', unethical, immoral, only for bad players, ruining the spirit of the queue... consider the intent of why sync drop is going on. PGI has created the incentive by giving in to what a few of the players wanted and has caused much poorer gameplay in the process because it ignored people who didn't want to be forced to play that way.

You're sync dropping because you don't want to play against other groups. You want to play against disorganized players who you have an advantage over.

I know you don't like having your motivations laid bare like that, but it is what it is. If you don't like having the light shone on what you're doing, then maybe it's an indication that you shouldn't be doing it.

[Kjudoon]

TKSax, on 24 August 2014 - 09:58 PM, said:

Mudhut is defiantly the boy who cried wolf, Dropped in a game with him a few weeks ago in the solo que. Alpine Peaks Assuat or Skirmish, at the start of the game I tell everyone to head to i9, someone else on the team mentions to hit any assault mechs or clan mecs that come up the hill as soon as you see them. We all get to i9 pretty quick, Mudhut's team starts coming to i9 in small groups, we judicially return fire, Mudhut accuses us of sync dropping, I mention that I am not even on teamspeak much less sync dropping, I ask in team chat if any one else is and say I was not going to publicize it, everyone replies no. He says He can tell because no one focus's fire that quick....

I would never deny sync dropping happens, it just does not happen or is succesfull as much as Mudhut would like to belive.

Ah... Teamwork is OP yet again and should be banned.

Edited by Kjudoon, 24 August 2014 - 10:02 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Kjudoon, on 24 August 2014 - 09:59 PM, said:

Okay, Mischief, your mind's made up you are closed to all other thoughts and that means there is no reason to discuss this any further with you. You cannot, or will not consider anything beyond your own conclusions and that makes everything else you have to say just angry noise not worth listening to.

Here's the thing Kjudoon. Further down the page is a whole thread I opened just to apologize to PGI for having ragged on something for the last year and found that I was, in fact, wrong. I did the same thing with Clan mechs - I was a doomsayer for them right up until release. I'm fine with new things, I'm fine with being wrong.

The problem here is that you're trying to portray something that is exploiting as being okay because you 'have no choice if you want the play the way you enjoy'.

Yes, yes you do. What 'you enjoy' in this context is something the game doesn't allow for. Exploiting to do it anyway is not and never will be 'alright'.

You're wanting me to compromise on something that is not compromisable and you want me to do it so that you can feel better about doing it.

No. I don't know you, I'm not and can not pass judgement on you as a person in any way - I don't know you, don't know anything about you. That behavior though, sync dropping, isn't acceptable. Is not and never will be. It exists as a means to get around limitations that pretty much EVERYONE ELSE ABIDES BY. To say that you and people who do it are special snowflakes who just can't be held to the same rules...

no. Not cool, not fair, not okay.

[Johnny Reb]

Hard to stop the practice. That said, its not that effective anymore. In a 8 man trying, best was 3 and that 2v1.

edit: also we all were trying to win not sabotage the other side.

Edited by Johnny Reb, 24 August 2014 - 10:12 PM.

[Kjudoon]

I want to also point out a serious flaw a lot of "Sync droppers are bad players" believers.

If anyone who's sync dropping is bad, why wouldn't you want the easy kills in your matches? They only make your stats look good.

This is the same thinking that gets us the "LRMS are OP and worthless at competitive levels of play" statements.

Which is it?

[headbasher]

There is only two possible conclusions I could come to regarding this whole thing



1. The player base is only a few dozen people

2. OP is blowing this way way way out of proportion

hmm...

I hate to be rude but really if its "true" the pop is so low that your seeing massive sync drops game will be shutting down within the week

Edited by headbasher, 24 August 2014 - 10:43 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Kjudoon, on 24 August 2014 - 10:22 PM, said:

I want to also point out a serious flaw a lot of "Sync droppers are bad players" believers.

If anyone who's sync dropping is bad, why wouldn't you want the easy kills in your matches? They only make your stats look good.

This is the same thinking that gets us the "LRMS are OP and worthless at competitive levels of play" statements.

Which is it?

Again, you're skirting the arguments being made. This isn't about them being good or bad, it's about exploiting.

Solo.
Group.

Mean different things.

Two different queues.

Rehashing again. You know that but clearly have no interest in debating those actual points but instead trying to pull it off into 'but what about the children' arguments.

[Roland]

Kjudoon, on 24 August 2014 - 10:22 PM, said:

I want to also point out a serious flaw a lot of "Sync droppers are bad players" believers.

If anyone who's sync dropping is bad, why wouldn't you want the easy kills in your matches? They only make your stats look good.

This is the same thinking that gets us the "LRMS are OP and worthless at competitive levels of play" statements.

Which is it?

Just because you're bad doesn't mean that gaining an advantage over disorganized players won't let you beat them.. That's why you want the advantage. I mean, "bad" doesn't mean "automatic losers of every matchup ever".

It just means you're worth of mocking, because you are sync dropping to play against solo pugs, because you are afraid to play against other groups.

Sure, I don't think good teams actually do such things, because they aren't afraid to play in the group queue... so any group doing this is generally not gonna be that good anyway and isn't going to be a huge threat... but they're still gonna get made fun of.


Again man, I'm really not specifically saying YOU suck, as I honestly have no idea who you are. But the actions you are describing are those of a group who is bad. You're describing folks who would rather play against solo players than against other groups, because when they play against other groups they lose.

I mean, I realize this is likely insulting, and I don't really intend it to be.. but I'm not gonna just look the other way on something so obvious just out of politeness.

Kjudoon, on 24 August 2014 - 10:01 PM, said:

Ah... Teamwork is OP yet again and should be banned.

Not at all. We have a whole queue where we can form groups at will.
That's where I play when I want teamwork.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Thanks for the many great and well thought out posts. This thread was started by request and for the reasons I outlined earlier.
For PGI to clarify and rule on the practice of synch dropping along with a simple way of detecting abuse.

Everyone has their opinion on synch dropping but at this point I think we can safely say it is happening and being attempted including faction/Ts Sponsoring such behavior. A lot of posts openly admitting to same.

So to sum it up two things. Can PGI clarify the rules on synch dropping and two can they track to see if it is an issue at all and correct behaviors if it is?

After so much time here I tend to have zero trust in most "experts" posted opinions and only look at ideas now. If that bothers you I am not apologizing for its the nature of things because of some posters here.. So this thread is asking PGI not you. Let them scan through and decide.
They have done a pretty good job so far so I will trust in their decision.

You all have fun out there.

[Texas Merc]

To clarify "Goons Love Paul" was made when an 8 man could still launch versus anyone in closed beta/open early when there wasn't a real matchmaker then.

[Kjudoon]

Mudhutwarrior, on 25 August 2014 - 01:46 AM, said:

Thanks for the many great and well thought out posts. This thread was started by request and for the reasons I outlined earlier.
For PGI to clarify and rule on the practice of synch dropping along with a simple way of detecting abuse.

Everyone has their opinion on synch dropping but at this point I think we can safely say it is happening and being attempted including faction/Ts Sponsoring such behavior. A lot of posts openly admitting to same.

So to sum it up two things. Can PGI clarify the rules on synch dropping and two can they track to see if it is an issue at all and correct behaviors if it is?

After so much time here I tend to have zero trust in most "experts" posted opinions and only look at ideas now. If that bothers you I am not apologizing for its the nature of things because of some posters here.. So this thread is asking PGI not you. Let them scan through and decide.
They have done a pretty good job so far so I will trust in their decision.

You all have fun out there.

This sums up the feelings I have on this latest response... Raj.

Edited by Kjudoon, 25 August 2014 - 02:33 AM.