Can You Stop The Practice Pgi?
#581
Posted 27 August 2014 - 08:15 PM
#582
Posted 27 August 2014 - 08:18 PM
I get that may not be the conscious decision but it's there.
#583
Posted 27 August 2014 - 08:21 PM
Sandpit, on 27 August 2014 - 08:02 PM, said:
you two sound like Mud when talking about solo players. They aren't mindless drooling nose pickers who can't play. There's a HUGE difference in the type of solo team you get in the lower and lwer-mid range Elo brackets than what you get at the higher to mid-higher Elo brackets.
I know my light Elo is much MUCH lower than my Assault Elo. There is a HUGE difference in the quality of team I get when I drop in an assault and the quality of team I get when I drop in a light.
Or for that matte when you drop in the group queue it's not all teams of Chuck Norris in a mech. I've seen plenty of bad play in the group queue. It just depends on who you get. Sometimes you get a 12 man of Mariks drinking beers and laughing, other times some hardcore all meta team. As far as private matches go, you need folks on with premium time. I'll spend my cash on this game buying mech bays or a hero. Or adding a few days to our enjin site or TS server. But the c-bill and xp bonus is not worth the cash.
#584
Posted 27 August 2014 - 08:22 PM
Kujdoon, does the seraphim plan on participating in CW as a group? Because if you do I would suggest dropping the group que as much as possiable...
#585
Posted 27 August 2014 - 08:28 PM
#586
Posted 27 August 2014 - 08:33 PM
cranect, on 27 August 2014 - 08:28 PM, said:
I absolutely get what you're saying, I do.
Here's the question though -
Why is there a solo queue? Why was it created? What was the events that led to its creation?
Intent is great and it absolutely makes a difference. In the end though, if there is a mechanic in place to prevent something (groups in solo queue), isn't actively trying to subvert that mechanic... well, exploiting? If being in a group isn't an advantage than the group queue wouldn't be an issue. If it is an advantage then, well, isn't doing something to get around limitations intended to allow groups in the solo queue intentionally or not exploiting limitations of the matchmaker to get groups into the solo queue a bad thing?
I can understand why PGI is hesitant to make a ruling because there absolutely is a world of difference between a bunch of people laughing and playing around in TS and dropping solo and sometimes ending up together and a competitive team syncing 2-7 people to roll pugs. If they're using the same mechanics however to bypass the same intentionally created restriction then isn't the difference one of semantics?
#587
Posted 27 August 2014 - 08:44 PM
The real question is, if you have a bunch of folks on comms, why not just form a group and drop in the group queue?
That's what my guys do... If I'm alone, I play in the solo queue. As soon as there are 2 of us, we drop in the group queue.
#588
Posted 27 August 2014 - 08:56 PM
Roland the whole reason to do it over the grouping up is just to add the random element in. It is just a different way to play. Sort of meshing the differences in the group and solo queues. Something you have to try to understand I guess.
Hopefully this answers some of your questions. Keep in mind I do not have the answer to everything.
Yes it would be exploting. But more due to the first half of the first definition that states "to utilize" more than any of the rest in the case of my unit and MMM anyway
[color=#666666]
1.to utilize, especially for profit; turn to practical account:[color=#979797]
to exploit a business opportunity.[/color]
[/color]
[color=#666666]
2.
to use selfishly for one's own ends:[color=#979797]
employers who exploit their workers.[/color]
[/color]
[color=#666666]
3.
to advance or further through exploitation; promote:[/color]
This is from dictionary.com
Edited by cranect, 27 August 2014 - 08:57 PM.
#589
Posted 27 August 2014 - 08:58 PM
MischiefSC, on 27 August 2014 - 08:09 PM, said:
The only reason to play in the solo queue is to play your group against pugs. That's it. That's the only thing it offers.
There you could not be more wrong for the vast majority of sync drops. I'm not looking to play with my group against pugs. I'm looking to play with my friends. With them on the same team, with them on the other team, or with them in another match. We really don't care. Tonight I had a solid hour and a half to drop before getting the kids to bed. I formed up a team with one other guy and we started dropping. Another friend joined in later and a fourth joined up as I left. And even with only a couple of people in a team if your playing with a build or leveling a mech it can take almost as long as a match to get ready for the next one. It can be a real pain with 12 folks. Who's in what class, let me alter this build to go better with yours, bathroom run, beer run. 10 minutes would not be odd by the time all are ready again and 20 or more common.
Other nights I can't dedicate the time to be in a team, I'll drop a match and then be gone for a while, so I hop on TS and chill in the lobby and solo drop. Sometimes I end up with a friend and we hop in the same channel. Often we are on opposite teams. Sometimes we try to sync and don't end up in the same match,other times we don't bother and still end up on the same team.
And then there are the silly community events that are hosted by various groups. Our Marik Monday Madness, the Steiner and FRR ones that I linked earlier. All of these have been very open about what is happening. And I'll be honest on Monday nights we see a lot of "O frack the Mariks are sync dropping together!" Usually followed with " And most are on my team I'm sooooo going to lose!"
Now I said vast majority of sync drops above because I'm sure that there are some people who attempt to sync drop with the intent of gaining an advantage in a match. But I'd rather face off against them then the losers who alt-f4 at the start of terra therma or the 4 guys in a group match that hide in a corner and come out at the end, or guys who use a macro to prevent their UAC from jamming.
#590
Posted 27 August 2014 - 09:04 PM
MischiefSC, on 27 August 2014 - 08:18 PM, said:
I get that may not be the conscious decision but it's there.
But I thought sync dropping = exploiting? Are other exploits OK in the group queue as well?
#591
Posted 27 August 2014 - 09:09 PM
TKSax, on 27 August 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:
Kujdoon, does the seraphim plan on participating in CW as a group? Because if you do I would suggest dropping the group que as much as possiable...
Parts of it do plan on it. Most of us do not mind the group queue though. Some do mind it due to computer capabilities. I tried to explain this, but probably did a poor job. Trust me it can matter though. On days when my computer says no I prefer the solo queue too. Just trying to answer what may have been a question/criticism.
Also Mischeif and Roland if you guys wanted at some point we could try to communicate through TS if you think it might help clear things up a bit. Then post some sort of summary here for everyone else. I do appreciate the thought put into the last set of questions/posts and the effort to clear things up.
#592
Posted 27 August 2014 - 09:14 PM
Only twice have i actually seen a friendly lance walk right by an enemy lance cutting down their team mates.
And yes aim bots are in game also. Seen a guy tabing targets plain as day and the same guy even had trouble choosing a target so it went back and forth all buggy like. How wide spread this i dont know.
Who is making them? Likely the guys that want to be hired to stop them. LOL
#593
Posted 27 August 2014 - 09:23 PM
MischiefSC, on 27 August 2014 - 08:09 PM, said:
Never said it was - my question though was, again, why? If you can drop in gropus in the group queue you can set up who's on which team. Also, plenty of people have premium time right now. Why not premium private matches?
The only reason to play in the solo queue is to play your group against pugs. That's it. That's the only thing it offers.
I'm not defending or condemning it, all I've done is point out that it's not illegal. I'd like them to clarify on it as much as you would. But, until they say it, it isn't illegal. I understand both sides of it, but I will say this. There has ALWAYS been a boogeyman. There's just a certain section of the players that absolutely refuse to believe that they're as bad as they actually are. They refuse to accept that they can't win the game all by their lonesome. They refuse to accept that they just aren't all that great at this game for various reasons. They look for any and every reason they can in order to excuse their as**s getting stomped regularly.
It used to be premades
Then it was 2 mans
Then it was new players
Now its sync dropping
If and when PGI declares it illegal and it gets stopped, they'll still decry "PGI isn't doing enough to stop it! I'm still losing". Even if and when PGI actually comes up with a way to prevent it from happening, they'll just move on to the next boogeyman.
#594
Posted 27 August 2014 - 09:39 PM
cranect, on 27 August 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:
Parts of it do plan on it. Most of us do not mind the group queue though. Some do mind it due to computer capabilities. I tried to explain this, but probably did a poor job. Trust me it can matter though. On days when my computer says no I prefer the solo queue too. Just trying to answer what may have been a question/criticism.
Also Mischeif and Roland if you guys wanted at some point we could try to communicate through TS if you think it might help clear things up a bit. Then post some sort of summary here for everyone else. I do appreciate the thought put into the last set of questions/posts and the effort to clear things up.
Nah, I don't really care that much dude. You tried to explain, but ultimately I think you're kind of ignoring the impact that having sync dropped folks is gonna have on solo players.
In the past, it's possible they wouldn't even know, but at this point the unit tags are gonna give you away, and it's gonna create bad blood.
#595
Posted 27 August 2014 - 09:46 PM
#596
Posted 27 August 2014 - 09:47 PM
MischiefSC, on 27 August 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:
Intent is great and it absolutely makes a difference. In the end though, if there is a mechanic in place to prevent something (groups in solo queue), isn't actively trying to subvert that mechanic... well, exploiting? If being in a group isn't an advantage than the group queue wouldn't be an issue. If it is an advantage then, well, isn't doing something to get around limitations intended to allow groups in the solo queue intentionally or not exploiting limitations of the matchmaker to get groups into the solo queue a bad thing?
I can understand why PGI is hesitant to make a ruling because there absolutely is a world of difference between a bunch of people laughing and playing around in TS and dropping solo and sometimes ending up together and a competitive team syncing 2-7 people to roll pugs. If they're using the same mechanics however to bypass the same intentionally created restriction then isn't the difference one of semantics?
As you have stated, intent is critical and cheating by its very definition depends obliquely on the intent of the parties. In this regard, Sandpit is both right and wrong to say that sync dropping is not cheating as it depends on the intention of the people doing it.
For the record, I did sync drop back in the 8 man days twice and never wanted to try it again as it absolutely felt like clubbing baby seals. However, I have participated in sync drops in the Marik event and in the recent PGI event but the intent in those cases was entirely different. I was well aware that we could and did drop on opposite sides and I did my best for my team in-match even when I was the sole person in the group on the other side.
If and when PGI rules that such acts are against the CoC / ToS, I am perfectly willing to comply or suffer the consequences if past actions are in breach. However, until such time and with all respect to others who have different opinions on this matter, I absolutely reserve the right to choose to sync drop again if PGI has another such solo event that takes up days of playing time that I could otherwise be using dropping in a group with my friends (which is already limited as it is).
#597
Posted 27 August 2014 - 09:49 PM
#598
Posted 27 August 2014 - 09:50 PM
#599
Posted 27 August 2014 - 10:01 PM
QuackAttack, on 27 August 2014 - 09:04 PM, said:
But I thought sync dropping = exploiting? Are other exploits OK in the group queue as well?
If everyone else is in groups it's not an exploit. You're not getting an advantage over anyone that way, are you? You're not intentionally circumventing an intentional limitation? The solo queue exists exclusively to prevent groups. That's the only reason for it. That's the only purpose it has. There is no other reason what so ever to have it - no purpose its serves other than to let people play without groups. The group queue, conversely, is a place to let people play as groups.
See the difference?
QuackAttack, on 27 August 2014 - 08:58 PM, said:
There you could not be more wrong for the vast majority of sync drops. I'm not looking to play with my group against pugs. I'm looking to play with my friends. With them on the same team, with them on the other team, or with them in another match. We really don't care. Tonight I had a solid hour and a half to drop before getting the kids to bed. I formed up a team with one other guy and we started dropping. Another friend joined in later and a fourth joined up as I left. And even with only a couple of people in a team if your playing with a build or leveling a mech it can take almost as long as a match to get ready for the next one. It can be a real pain with 12 folks. Who's in what class, let me alter this build to go better with yours, bathroom run, beer run. 10 minutes would not be odd by the time all are ready again and 20 or more common.
Other nights I can't dedicate the time to be in a team, I'll drop a match and then be gone for a while, so I hop on TS and chill in the lobby and solo drop. Sometimes I end up with a friend and we hop in the same channel. Often we are on opposite teams. Sometimes we try to sync and don't end up in the same match,other times we don't bother and still end up on the same team.
And then there are the silly community events that are hosted by various groups. Our Marik Monday Madness, the Steiner and FRR ones that I linked earlier. All of these have been very open about what is happening. And I'll be honest on Monday nights we see a lot of "O frack the Mariks are sync dropping together!" Usually followed with " And most are on my team I'm sooooo going to lose!"
Now I said vast majority of sync drops above because I'm sure that there are some people who attempt to sync drop with the intent of gaining an advantage in a match. But I'd rather face off against them then the losers who alt-f4 at the start of terra therma or the 4 guys in a group match that hide in a corner and come out at the end, or guys who use a macro to prevent their UAC from jamming.
Your GROUP of friends. You can play with your friends in private matches or group queue. It's not like there is no other options.
Your justification for dropping in group in the solo queue is that the limitations (for balance reasons) in the group queue are 'too much of a hassle'.... so you sync in the solo queue because that's never a hassle? Syncing is easier than picking a different mech?
Look, simple questions:
1. Why is there a solo queue?
2. What is the entire purpose of the solo queue?
3. Why is there a group queue?
4. What is the purpose of the group queue?
5. Why are there private match options?
6. What is the purpose of private matches?
I see a lot of very shallow excuses for syncing in the solo queue.
Finally, Sandpit, you're really strawmanning that last bit. You're saying that there's no reason to say people shouldn't drop in groups in the solo queue because people would... .complain about something else? So can I respond the exact same way when you complain about lack of content and balance concerns? Why fix the heat/convergence system, people would just find something else to complain about?
That's not a legit argument and you've got to know that.
We either have a solo queue or we don't. It's that simple. It's not a hard question to answer nor an irrational one. Saying you refuse to answer it because the answer isn't one you don't like is indicative of how shaky the logic of the arguments going on here are.
Do we have a solo queue, yes or no?
If we do have a solo queue, why do we have it? What purpose does it serve?
If we don't really have a 'solo queue', then what possible purpose does it serve?
I'm 100% on board with the difference between intentionally syncs and people screwing around, etc. etc. At the moment I've been told by support that if I submit a report of someone sync dropping it'll be investigated the same as any other exploit like farming, aimbotting, etc. I've never done so. In fact in the 7 or 8k drops I've had over the last couple of years you could count the reports I've made to support on one hand and they were generally pretty serious dbaggery.
We've got CW coming in short order though and we've got 2 years of people in groups being dbags to pug players. Yes, a few bad apples spoiling the bunch and I'm a big fan of groups in general. The solo queue however was made specifically for solo players who for whatever reason, be that lack of time, desire to grind some quick games or just not liking to play against groups they've got a place to play of their own. Groups have their own queue and have CW coming which is pretty much rock solid playground for groups. Solos can sorta play there as filler but that's it.
If you take the solo queue away from solo players (which is exactly what syncing does, regardless of your reasons - you're making them filler for your private group games, you're essentially making them play with and against groups when they consciously chose not to by picking the solo queue) you're laying the foundation of drama that has no purpose.
There are tons of options for doing everything discussed here. MMM, group contests, killing VIP mechs in random teams, etc. Any and all of that can absolutely be done in the group queue or private matches.
The only thing, the one and only thing you can't do in private matches, is drop with a group of friends in a match otherwise populated by solo pugs and play your group game using them as unknowing and unwilling filler.
That's not cool. There is no justification for it. It is, in fact, more or less why the solo queue was created - to let people play the game the way they want without that experience. Sync-dropping is intentionally getting around that specific limitation, that direct designed purpose of the solo queue, for the express purpose of drafting solo pugs into your group of friends entertainment.
So, again. Do we have a solo queue or don't we? If so, what purpose does it serve? If not.... what purpose does it serve?
#600
Posted 27 August 2014 - 10:01 PM
cranect, on 27 August 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:
Parts of it do plan on it. Most of us do not mind the group queue though. Some do mind it due to computer capabilities. I tried to explain this, but probably did a poor job. Trust me it can matter though. On days when my computer says no I prefer the solo queue too. Just trying to answer what may have been a question/criticism.
Since you posted Crane, I'll add a little to this.
The Seraphim has 9 companies at various levels of play. They group drop for practices and competitions as well as solo drops as individuals. We have a garrison force that also does group drops and solo drops depending on their desires.
Sync drops are occasional organized events or random groups you would normally find as PUGs anyway.
There is nothing unethical or immoral in how we conduct our drops and nothing different than what I've seen done in virtually every other teamspeak using unit I've been invited to play with in this regard.
It is clear that there is a very small very vocal minority that believes this is unethical or immoral, and that is fine. PGI has not made it against the rules, and as far as I know has even gone so far as to condone the practice by ignoring it despite the issue being brought forth in the past.
Edited by Kjudoon, 27 August 2014 - 10:02 PM.
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