946 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Kjudoon, on 27 August 2014 - 10:01 PM, said:

Since you posted Crane, I'll add a little to this.

The Seraphim has 9 companies at various levels of play. They group drop for practices and competitions as well as solo drops as individuals. We have a garrison force that also does group drops and solo drops depending on their desires.

Sync drops are occasional organized events or random groups you would normally find as PUGs anyway.

There is nothing unethical or immoral in how we conduct our drops and nothing different than what I've seen done in virtually every other teamspeak using unit I've been invited to play with in this regard.

It is clear that there is a very small very vocal minority that believes this is unethical or immoral, and that is fine. PGI has not made it against the rules, and as far as I know has even gone so far as to condone the practice by ignoring it despite the issue being brought forth in the past.

If it's a very small minority... why did they create a solo queue and a group queue separate?

[bobF]

I keep seeing this thread, and for some sick reason, I keep reading a couple pages here and there. They mostly read the same, the same indignant arguments, the same comments in different iterations.

How many PvP games have people played here? Because most others I've played allowed preformed groups to queue into a general PvP queue. If you got rolled by a premade and your team had a bunch of randoms, ggnore. You formed your own premade (or join up the with the one steamrolling) if you didn't like it.

With no competitive rankings, spectator tools for casters, and other genuine, bonafide esport stuff, I really can't fathom why there's separate queues, other than to give me the only option to drop with a group. People thinking that makes things somehow more "competitive" is humorous, like dropping group-only makes you some kind of pro. I'm 100% positive things happen the same in that queue: less organized groups get wtfpwnd by better organized ones. In other words, the same thing that happens in the solo queue. If people want to justify their steamroll as some kind of showcase of skill just because it happened in the group queue, whatever. To some people, virtual combat is srs bzns.

I truly don't see why anyone would even be upset at sync dropping, since that's how PvP operates most everywhere else. If a sync dropped premade owns my face, I should get good instead of whine about it. I think people are bitter someone is having fun playing a video game, and not taking things seriously enough. Lol at the nickname "the Porkchop" btw, good stuff.

One final thought. Seeing as this is really some neckbeardish non-issue, too much resource would be needed to actually automate or manually police this, and there's no immediate, obvious way to monetize any of this, your chances of receiving some kind of SCOTUS-esque judgement on high from PGI is approaching 0%. There's a small hope though.

[Johnny Z]

bobF, on 27 August 2014 - 10:54 PM, said:

I keep seeing this thread, and for some sick reason, I keep reading a couple pages here and there. They mostly read the same, the same indignant arguments, the same comments in different iterations.

How many PvP games have people played here? Because most others I've played allowed preformed groups to queue into a general PvP queue. If you got rolled by a premade and your team had a bunch of randoms, ggnore. You formed your own premade (or join up the with the one steamrolling) if you didn't like it.

With no competitive rankings, spectator tools for casters, and other genuine, bonafide esport stuff, I really can't fathom why there's separate queues, other than to give me the only option to drop with a group. People thinking that makes things somehow more "competitive" is humorous, like dropping group-only makes you some kind of pro. I'm 100% positive things happen the same in that queue: less organized groups get wtfpwnd by better organized ones. In other words, the same thing that happens in the solo queue. If people want to justify their steamroll as some kind of showcase of skill just because it happened in the group queue, whatever. To some people, virtual combat is srs bzns.

I truly don't see why anyone would even be upset at sync dropping, since that's how PvP operates most everywhere else. If a sync dropped premade owns my face, I should get good instead of whine about it. I think people are bitter someone is having fun playing a video game, and not taking things seriously enough. Lol at the nickname "the Porkchop" btw, good stuff.

One final thought. Seeing as this is really some neckbeardish non-issue, too much resource would be needed to actually automate or manually police this, and there's no immediate, obvious way to monetize any of this, your chances of receiving some kind of SCOTUS-esque judgement on high from PGI is approaching 0%. There's a small hope though.

I agree, this is a none issue, the games TOS and code of conduct already cover anything negative resulting from sync drops.

The only point worth mentioning at all is the fact that before there was a group queue, sync drops were explained away by saying that players just wanted to group with their friends. Which is part of the game and is great all around. That is why a group queue was made.

Its also worth mentioning that groups were allowed in the regular queue but many were sync dropping onto both teams saying that the groups allowed were not large enough.

Edited by Johnny Z, 27 August 2014 - 11:28 PM.

[Duke Nedo]

bobF, in other PvP games grouping up is easily accessible to everyone, you just choose a server and join the same team as your pals, just like... the group queue in MWO!

The solo queue is somewhat unique in that aspect and imo a really nice feature in MWO! It allows you to choose more casual play, or test things out, or be able to power down if your kid wakes up... I love it!

Another difference with MWO vs. say counter-strike is that win = gaining resources. Dropping synced in the solo queue, even a fraction of the time, makes you farm resources and makes the honest solo players being farmed, and that makes you quit because noone enjoys being farmed. It's comparable to joining a public CS server with your clan, guess many tried that in the 2000-ies.... remember what happened? All pub players quit and joined another server where they would not be rolled. It's they same here with the extra frustration that the farmed players don't make any cbills so its worse.

Imo the only real fix for this is adding in-game voice ip. Then its more efficient for the syncers to use in-game voice with 12 players than their own TS with a handful players.... problem solved.

Might also help to thrash elo and just use simple experience brackets instead. That would increase the player pool available to each match and no strange elo effects or MM playability from ELO bias...

[bobF]

Duke Nedo, on 27 August 2014 - 11:29 PM, said:

bobF, in other PvP games grouping up is easily accessible to everyone, you just choose a server and join the same team as your pals, just like... the group queue in MWO!

The solo queue is somewhat unique in that aspect and imo a really nice feature in MWO! It allows you to choose more casual play, or test things out, or be able to power down if your kid wakes up... I love it!

Another difference with MWO vs. say counter-strike is that win = gaining resources. Dropping synced in the solo queue, even a fraction of the time, makes you farm resources and makes the honest solo players being farmed, and that makes you quit because noone enjoys being farmed. It's comparable to joining a public CS server with your clan, guess many tried that in the 2000-ies.... remember what happened? All pub players quit and joined another server where they would not be rolled. It's they same here with the extra frustration that the farmed players don't make any cbills so its worse.

Imo the only real fix for this is adding in-game voice ip. Then its more efficient for the syncers to use in-game voice with 12 players than their own TS with a handful players.... problem solved.

Might also help to thrash elo and just use simple experience brackets instead. That would increase the player pool available to each match and no strange elo effects or MM playability from ELO bias...

In well-developed PvP games, there's a separate competitive queue, that ensures parity between sides. Does MWO ensure both sides queue up with a 12-man premade? Tonnage rules? Sure, you can set up a private match (for $$$ I'm assuming, well played PGI) but what happens in the general, default group queue?

http://mwomercs.com/...tactics-needed/

Gee, not a similar experience in the slightest. You people are already farming each other, it's just okay since it happens in the superpro group queue. What a joke.

An in-game voip would pretty much make the group queue look even more weak. Given the amount of QQ over the last challenge from largely competitive group players, both in game chat and these forums, I suspect people really aren't interested in a truly competitive queue, and enjoy socially sanctioned facestomping ostensibly labeled as skillz.

Also, your cheerleader marketing blurb for solo queue being "casual" is pretty weak. With ELO out of whack and sync-dropping, your odds of facing a well-oiled killing machine or helpless nubs is all over the place. Being interrupted by your screaming brat would have the same consequence in solo or group play.

[Duke Nedo]

You miss my point. The point is that in the group queue, there are groups on both sides and that evens the field in terms of fairness over several games. In you sync in the solo queue you do something that is not accessible to everyone by design, and you either get on the same team and get the advantage, or you end up on opposite teams or different games and get a normal match. Hence, the advantage is not balanced by a disadvantage -> the net result is using an exploit to farm. To me atleast that's the obvious conclusion.
Also, I am pretty sure that the solo queue would be more casual and atleast I would have a better conscience powering down in the solo queue than with my premade lance mates taking care of one of my two sons, not my screaming brat thankyou.

[bobF]

No, I didn't miss your point at all. You simply have the same skewed perception as the others complaining here, that group queue is "fair" (despite it essentially being a pug of groups vs bigger, organized groups, with the same issues of communication and coordination) and that solo queue is for "casuals" (even though the game play is the same).

Given that ELO obviously doesn't fully function, and the fact that sync drops can happen to either side, saying somehow that the practice ends up being an "exploit to farm" is specious at best. What if the sync drop splits the "premade?" What if multiple lances of sync droppers end up on opposite sides? What if the magic mm system, in a supreme effort to fill games with a small player base, drops a couple genuine badasses just looking to mess around in solo, opposite the sync droppers? There's way too much going on, with the added madness and nubbery that is inherent to solo queuing, to say that sync dropping is always evil, and always winds up with 12-0 autowin for the sync droppers. People who take farming seriously look to maximize the most gain out of the most efficient effort possible. That's happening in the group queue, not solo. To me at least that's the rational conclusion.

This is just 31 pages of virtual schadenfreude and namenshame, all because someone wants to play loose and fun in a group, instead of being forced into metasupersrs mode by default in the smugly self-assured group queue. It's both amusing and saddening to see people upset at an "exploit" that's the default general pvp queue in many other games.

[Dirgez]

Sync dropping is a non issue, plain and simple. I have seen it many times across many different games. Just because some can get lucky and drop into the same match on the same side does not mean the other side is automatically at a disadvantage.

Statistically, they are insignificant at best.

[Duke Nedo]

Ok, lets separate the issues here.

1st - I do not mean that the teams in the group queue get evenly matched games. I am saying that the benefit of team play, comms etc is available to both sides. The skill and small group mix/mash is an issue for the MM and I totally see that that is probably worse in the group queue than the solo queue. But that is a completely different story. I have full sympathy this, but syncing in the soloqueue to avoid imbalance in the group queue is not the solution, its just moving the problem to another queue and making you the abuser instead of the victim. The solution is better matchmaking in the group queue and voice comms for all (to balance 2x 4-groups vs 1x 8-group for example)

2nd - your what-ifs actually do miss the point. in average over many games, syncing into the solo queue does introduce a net teamplay/comms advantage no matter if it only works in some games. The ones where it does work tilts the balance and give the advantage that is against the design = exploit. Often unintentional as explot I will give you that, but in practice when all is said and done one side played the system and the other side got abused.

3rd - not saying syncing in one or two is auto-win or anything, but it is an advantage over not having a mate or two on comms. How big doesn't really matter.

I have seen one argument for syncing that I can understand, and that is to avoid spectating long games where you die early, I can see that one but I don't think that makes it fine.

Edit: think I have said what I have to say now, we can always agree to disagree.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 28 August 2014 - 02:05 AM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

WM Dirges, on 28 August 2014 - 01:50 AM, said:

Sync dropping is a non issue, plain and simple. I have seen it many times across many different games. Just because some can get lucky and drop into the same match on the same side does not mean the other side is automatically at a disadvantage.

Statistically, they are insignificant at best.

How about some statistics then? I hear this argument while that side always demands proof but gives not one shred themselves.

[ApolloKaras]

Mudhutwarrior, on 28 August 2014 - 02:04 AM, said:

How about some statistics then? I hear this argument while that side always demands proof but gives not one shred themselves.

Let's start with your proof. Oh wait....


On a side note. I am concerned with some of the non competitive groups, casual groups having any fun in the group queue. Most of us find the games pretty balanced. Sure you wince a little when you see 4-5 Lord tags on the other side, but you know they don't have a lot of back up, elo being the way it is.

Templars are a casual group, with a competitive element that's going quite well :-) I am glad to report that we've never attempted to sync drop ( with an exception of a test we did when I saw this thread) as some others have in this thread. I would tell those individuals that you are painting your unit in a terrible light...

Edited by Saxie, 28 August 2014 - 04:10 AM.

[Roland]

I would tend to agree that sync dropping is not a common practice, except in challenge situations, perhaps.

But even so, that in itself is not a reason to give a pass to the folks who choose to do it. They are still negatively impacting the games of the folks playing in the solo queue, which exists for the express purpose of NOT having teams there.

That's the thing, folks.. we have a group queue to play in when we're grouped. We should be using THAT queue.

[RussianWolf]

not going to go back up and find the quote.

Someone said something about they sync, then the ones that wind up in the same game get on comms. And someone earlier questioned, what if you solo drop and someone you know is in the match, does that count as a sync.

To me the difference is comms. When I'm running solo I don't have TS active. So if I see someone I know, even someone I group with. I'll type chat with them but that is it. Same as if someone I don't know asks a question, or if I try to herd my cats towards a strategy. Honestly, most of the time I just react to the movements my team makes (aka not get left on my own) and try to do what I can to be a benefit.

Once you join TS comms with others in the match, you have an advantage. Whether you use that advantage effectively or not is irrelevant,

It would be like playing a game of pick up football. In one game, you actually get your coach and he uses the play calling shorthand that you use in real games. It would give you an advantage over the other team who has a stranger for a coach so have to revert to just talking to make calls. One team its a couple hand gestures, the other has to have a conversation to get the same result. The stranger coach could be Nick Sabin and the other side would still have the advantage.

For me personally, I don't care. I'm one of those that would be willing to be a solo filler for an 11man in the groups. But for those that have a harder time or simply don't want to be against groups in any way shape or form, I will speak up. If they want to give us a combined queue that allows solos, teams and sync dropping, fine. But the solo queue should remain the solo queue and sync dropping should be allowed there.

I recall some of the teams didn't want solos in their queue as well because they didn't want low level players screwing up their teams. So a 3rd queue may be the best option. Solo Only, Anything goes (Solo, teams 2-12, sync dropping), and Teams only (2-10+12)

Edited by RussianWolf, 28 August 2014 - 05:38 AM.

[ApolloKaras]

RussianWolf, on 28 August 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

not going to go back up and find the quote.

Someone said something about they sync, then the ones that wind up in the same game get on comms. And someone earlier questioned, what if you solo drop and someone you know is in the match, does that count as a sync.

To me the difference is comms. When I'm running solo I don't have TS active. So if I see someone I know, even someone I group with. I'll type chat with them but that is it. Same as if someone I don't know asks a question, or if I try to herd my cats towards a strategy. Honestly, most of the time I just react to the movements my team makes (aka not get left on my own) and try to do what I can to be a benefit.

Once you join TS comms with others in the match, you have an advantage. Whether you use that advantage effectively or not is irrelevant,

It would be like playing a game of pick up football. In one game, you actually get your coach and he uses the play calling shorthand that you use in real games. It would give you an advantage over the other team who has a stranger for a coach so have to revert to just talking to make calls. One team its a couple hand gestures, the other has to have a conversation to get the same result. The stranger coach could be Nick Sabin and the other side would still have the advantage.

For me personally, I don't care. I'm one of those that would be willing to be a solo filler for an 11man in the groups. But for those that have a harder time or simply don't want to be against groups in any way shape or form, I will speak up. If they want to give us a combined queue that allows solos, teams and sync dropping, fine. But the solo queue should remain the solo queue and sync dropping should be allowed there.

I recall some of the teams didn't want solos in their queue as well because they didn't want low level players screwing up their teams. So a 3rd queue may be the best option. Solo Only, Anything goes (Solo, teams 2-12, sync dropping), and Teams only (2-10+12)

This is the kind of witch hunt that people will want to avoid. "oh there are 4 members from 'WTH' online! They must be sync DROPPING!" Not to look at how big the unit is. If you have an active unit if 100 folks you're going to have issues where some of the same unit may be in the same drop. I can see Mudhutwarrior now, "I have screens look at my proof11!!"

[RussianWolf]

Saxie, on 28 August 2014 - 05:54 AM, said:

This is the kind of witch hunt that people will want to avoid. "oh there are 4 members from 'WTH' online! They must be sync DROPPING!" Not to look at how big the unit is. If you have an active unit if 100 folks you're going to have issues where some of the same unit may be in the same drop. I can see Mudhutwarrior now, "I have screens look at my proof11!!"

So we go back to my (joke) idea of having the match maker automatically team them and drop them in the group queue. lol

Seriously some will perceive it as a team no matter what. They already do with just the faction tags, and the only respite from this was the assurance that PGI made that groups are no longer in the solo queue. Now with some admitting to sync dropping........... All bets are off again in those perceptions.

[Roland]

Saxie, on 28 August 2014 - 05:54 AM, said:

This is the kind of witch hunt that people will want to avoid. "oh there are 4 members from 'WTH' online! They must be sync DROPPING!" Not to look at how big the unit is. If you have an active unit if 100 folks you're going to have issues where some of the same unit may be in the same drop. I can see Mudhutwarrior now, "I have screens look at my proof11!!"

It just seems weird to me that folks would be in the same unit, and have a bunch of them choose to drop solo and not with each other. Of course, my unit was fairly tight knit, and we actually were part of the unit with the express purpose of fighting together.

But this is why I'd suggest just having the system prevent folks in the same unit from being put into the same game. Since those folks who might somehow accidentally get put in the same game would not care if they didn't get dropped together (since if they did, they could form a group).

It'd be an easy fix, and would prevent it from creating bad blood among solo players who specifically do not want to fight groups.

[Duke Nedo]

Feel the need to clarify one more thing. The reason I am against sync-dropping is the way it hurts regular solo droppers. It has nothing to do with that I don't like group play, rather the opposite, I love the games that are played tightly in a competetive manner!

If the chance to be dropped with- and against a sync-drop had been they same it wouldnt hurt the solo players as much since you would also benefit from it. An example, say for simplicity that 4 players successfully sync into the same game, same side. I say nothing about the probability that it happens, but assume it is. The effect for the regular player is that there are 8 free slots on the team that is more likely to win and there are 12 slots free on the team that is likely to loose... so my chance to loose is 50% larger than my chance to win. That's the problem.

No idea how big a problem this is in reality, but the principle of syncdropping is completely wrong imo.

[ApolloKaras]

Roland, on 28 August 2014 - 06:00 AM, said:

It just seems weird to me that folks would be in the same unit, and have a bunch of them choose to drop solo and not with each other. Of course, my unit was fairly tight knit, and we actually were part of the unit with the express purpose of fighting together.

But this is why I'd suggest just having the system prevent folks in the same unit from being put into the same game. Since those folks who might somehow accidentally get put in the same game would not care if they didn't get dropped together (since if they did, they could form a group).

It'd be an easy fix, and would prevent it from creating bad blood among solo players who specifically do not want to fight groups.

I think part of it is grinding a new mech you got. It can be difficult to grind mechs in the competitive group queue, and usually it takes a tad longer between drops. People switching loadouts getting things ready etc. If you're leveling vindicators, you can play that unit until you die, immediately quit when the match is over and hit launch again.

I think its an efficiency point of view.

Edited by Saxie, 28 August 2014 - 08:10 AM.

[QuackAttack]

MischiefSC, on 27 August 2014 - 10:01 PM, said:

So, again. Do we have a solo queue or don't we? If so, what purpose does it serve? If not.... what purpose does it serve?

Yep, syncing is easier, although perhaps it's not sync dropping so much as voice chat syncing.
Because there is no hassle if my friends are not in my match as we are still chatting on TS. The actual goal is to play this game while chatting with friends also playing the game.

So here is what happens. I'm in the lobby on our TS server, hop in a mech and drop.
Hey look there's a friend in my match (doesn't matter if on my team or not) and look! He's down in drop bay 1 with a couple of other folks. I swap channels. We chat it up for the match have some fun. Match is over.

I go to spend some xp on the mech I'm leveling, tweek the build a bit and grab a beer. He launches his second match not wanting to wait on me. By the time I get back he's hit launch for his 3rd match and says "hurry up I'm still searching the queue is full of assaults and it's taking forever".

I hop in my Kit Fox and hit launch, as long as he was searching when I hit launch I have a chance of getting in
the same match. Now I'm on my second match and he's dropping on his third. Maybe that's all the time he has
to play 3 or 4 matches before dinner or whatever. When you have over 100 friends in game this
happens all the time. It's not that I am choosing to avoid the group queue, it's that I am not spending
a chunk of my short gaming time waiting on others or having them wait on me.

And to answer your simple questions (from my POV, any snarkyness in not directed towards anyone in particular)

1. Why is there a solo queue? Originally to separate 8 man teams into a group queue. Nobody seriously argued that an 8 man organized group should be put up against 8 randoms. After many changes and until recently there could be an up
to 4 man group on each team. There was either a premade group on each team or no premade groups in the match.

2. What is the entire purpose of the solo queue? At this point I honestly think that it is an attempt by PGI to appease
a vocal minority who prefer QQ to PEW PEW. Crying about premades reduced the size from up to a 4man on each team to a 2man on each to none. So conversly if I'm dropping with one friend in a team as I was last night, I could run up against a 12 man. Or worse a 12 man against 2 2man teams, a 5 and a 3.

3. Why is there a group queue? The group queue was created originally to put 8 man teams up against each other.
no one is arguing that large organized groups should be in the solo queue.

4. What is the purpose of the group queue? See answer to 3

5. Why are there private match options? Private match options are there to allow custom game rules to be put into
play. Stock Mech, 3025 tech etc. Or for organized groups to have training on certain maps, or organized tournaments
to exist placing specific teams against each other. There are no rewards in these matches to prevent farming.

6. What is the purpose of private matches? See answer to 5

Edited by QuackAttack, 28 August 2014 - 08:28 AM.

[Roland]

Saxie, on 28 August 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

I think part of it is grinding a new mech you got. It can be difficult to grind mechs in the competitive group queue, and usually it takes a tad longer between drops. People switching loadouts getting things ready etc. If you're leveling vindicators, you can play that unit until you die, immediately quit when the match is over and hit launch again.

I think its an efficiency point of view.

Sure, but in those cases you wouldn't feel bad if the game didn't put you in games with other folks from your unit, right?

Also, again I gotta point out, the group queue is no longer the "competitive" queue. For the most part, it's the "grouped PUG" queue at this point. It's not like the teams playing in it are all pro elite e-sports teams.