178 replies to this topic

[D34K]

Not sharing the numbers upfront tells you everything: they don't trust us and we don't trust them.

We'll obviously find out the numbers eventually, why make the community even more annoyed with you by trying to "game" us on something as critical as balance?

FFS Niko, I've been mostly OK with you since you took on the new role but this is BS.

[Pope RW]

If CLAN tech receives further nurfs then it should stay 12 vs 12, to further degrade CLAN weapons and then make the CLAN fight uphill in 12 vs 10 will be untenable and a huge advantage towards IS.

[Jacob Side]

Balance for 10 Clan v 12 IS is what needs to be done.

[Madw0lf]

Crunk Prime, on 27 August 2014 - 04:43 PM, said:

This is the worst idea Ive ever heard. Why would you activley avoid telling people cold hard facts about stats on things?

Unless they have been changed so much that they fear some kind of backlash from people who see the stats.

For one, that is how you science on people. For two people around here get so in a huff when numbers are posted, without even having a chance to USE to equipment, that theres really rarely any actual point in it.

Will def be trying to get on the PTS this afternoon though

[Widowmaker1981]

Madw0lf, on 28 August 2014 - 03:56 AM, said:

For one, that is how you science on people. For two people around here get so in a huff when numbers are posted, without even having a chance to USE to equipment, that theres really rarely any actual point in it.

Will def be trying to get on the PTS this afternoon though

no, theres no 'science' reason behind it. they know as well as you or i that the instant the patch is released the numbers will be extracted from the files, and posted on reddit and the forums. Therefore everyone who cares will know the number changes before they play them.

the only reason for not posting them is that the nerfhammer has swung ludicrously hard and they are trying to delay the forum backlash for a few hours.

and how weapons 'feel' in game is in fact NOT how they should be judged, for example LBX ACs 'feel' good, because they generate large damage numbers, and make your reticle flash red nice and easy, when in fact they are useless scrub weapons (at least for IS, the clan LBX 5 isnt too terrible)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 28 August 2014 - 04:07 AM.

[MasterBLB]

Quote

These are taken from the Weapons.xml embedded in the GameData.pak.

Note: It's possible a new build could go up before downtime begins.

ERLL
Heat reduced to 8.0 from 8.5
Duration increased to 1.5 from 1.0

CERSL
Heat increased to 3.0 from 2.0
Range reduced to 150/300 from 200/400

CERML
Heat increased to 6.0 from 5.0
Range reduced to 400/800 from 450/900
Duration reduced to 1.25 from 1.3

CERLL
Damage reduced to 11.0 from 11.25
Heat penalty reduced to 4.0 from 12.0
Heat increased to 10 from 9
Range reduced to 740/1480 from 890/1780
Duration reduced to 1.6 from 2.0

CSPL
Heat increased to 3.4 from 2.4
Range reduced to 150/300 from 180/360

CMPL
Heat increased to 6.0 from 5.5
Range reduced to 330/600 from 400/800
Duration reduced to 0.85 from 0.9

CLPL
Damage reduced to 11.6 from 11.8
Heat penalty increased to 4.0 from 2.8
Heat increased to 9.0 from 8.0
Range reduced to 525/1050 from 600/1200
Duration reduced to 1.2 from 1.3

CLRM5
Cooldown increased to 3.5 from 3.25

CLRM10
Cooldown reduced to 3.5 from 3.75

CLRM15
Cooldown reduced to 3.5 from 4.25

CLRM20
Cooldown reduced to 3.5 from 4.75

CSSRM4
Cooldown reduced to 5.0 from 5.25

CSSRM6
Cooldown reduced to 6.0 from 7.0

Source - http://www.reddit.co..._the_pts_xpost/

Actually Russ I'm amazed,these changes are overall not bad..However,few of them should be abandoned before they strike into live server.

Quote

ERLL
Heat reduced to 8.0 from 8.5
Duration increased to 1.5 from 1.0

Total idiocy.Don't touch it,after PPC nerf it is the only reliable IS long-range weapon left.You can,however keep the lowered heat value.

Quote

CERSL
Heat increased to 3.0 from 2.0
Range reduced to 150/300 from 200/400

Range reduction is okay,heat increase is not.Also keep in mind that by heat increase of C-ER SL and C-ER ML you'll make Nova utter trash.

Quote

CERML
Heat increased to 6.0 from 5.0
Range reduced to 400/800 from 450/900
Duration reduced to 1.25 from 1.3

Range reduction is well deserved,it was just unfair that clan medium laser had the same range like IS large one.
But increasing heat,well...no.Just no.Instead leave duration at 1.3 (though 1.25 won't break the metagame,and it'll make them more useful against fast IS light mechs) if you must and reduce the range futher,to 370/720 but leave the heat as it is.

Quote

CERLL
Damage reduced to 11.0 from 11.25
Heat penalty reduced to 4.0 from 12.0
Heat increased to 10 from 9
Range reduced to 740/1480 from 890/1780
Duration reduced to 1.6 from 2.0

Finally,last bad change reverted to something making more sense.Though I'd adjust the numbers a bit:
- damage reduction is okay.Even numbers are better.
- heat penalty.Another sign that if you do want guys you can make things right.With reduced damage and range 4 C-ER LL won't be as much issue as before.
- heat increase to 10 is too much,make it 9.5 first.
- range decrease.Yes,finally the main issue with that weapon has been addressed.Thought personally I prefer nice round values,like 750/1500.
- beam duration,with all these range/heat changes may be safety reduced to 1.5s or even less.

Quote

CSPL
Heat increased to 3.4 from 2.4
Range reduced to 150/300 from 180/360

CMPL
Heat increased to 6.0 from 5.5
Range reduced to 330/600 from 400/800
Duration reduced to 0.85 from 0.9

Same note like for C-ER SL and C-ER ML.Reduced range is ok,increased heat is not.

Quote

CLPL
Damage reduced to 11.6 from 11.8
Heat penalty increased to 4.0 from 2.8
Heat increased to 9.0 from 8.0
Range reduced to 525/1050 from 600/1200
Duration reduced to 1.2 from 1.3

I think that with significantly increased heat,heat penalty and lowered range it may be recommended to increase damage up to 12.But overall,that change looks good.

Quote

<various C-LRM cooldown changes>

They look good,however,the issue with these launchers is they shoot in few salvos,and during firing the cooldown is not counted down.If the presented numbers are set to make C-LRM cooldown + salvo_time == IS-LRM cooldown then they are fine and I can only applaud the change.

Quote

<streak 4 and 6 cooldown reductions>

Finally.However,I'd go a bit further and set 4.5s for CSSR4 and 5.25 for CSSRM6

And where is PPC change?Please consider it strongly to revert the speed nerf.

[Noober]

Thanks for the communication and the PTS use, much appreciated.

I would strongly advise against hiding balancing changes: we'll just open weapons.xml etc. and see for ourselves - but by doing that we'll lose any context for the changes and may even miss something important. (btw more c-lrm/c-ssrm spam, really?).

On the subject of clan weapon balancing: the weapons are pretty well balanced as-is in live (gauss PPC still feels off and c-s/srms could do with a streaming mechanic though) - this coming from an exclusively IS pilot. Other aspects of clantech are the real offenders in my eyes: Clan tankability (XL engine, clan item health nerfs pl0x?).

On a positive note its good to see the game coming along as it is, very excited about finding out what plans you guys have for CW and how you'll be implementing it!

[Widowmaker1981]

hmm, interestingly those changes arent too bad, imo. C-ERMLs did need a nerf, and thats not insanely heavy handed. Makes my builds easier again too, since once again CERLLs are better lasers than CLPLs.

(though of course that is arse backwards, being +2 tons and +1 slot, pulse lasers should be better, not worse, but PGI cant seem to figure out how to translate the +2 to hit into MWO...... as a hint id suggest halving the beam durations of every single pulse laser in the game)

[101011]

Mizeur, on 27 August 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

The problem is the faction not the chassis. Clan pulse lasers are a completely different animal than the Inner Sphere versions. Then when you factor in Clan pulse lasers + range modules (without heat penalty) + targeting computer = almost Clan ER laser with more damage and close to I.S. beam duration. Even the Inner Sphere ER Large Lasers don't compare. Combined with the Clan XL advantage and weight savings, it's devastating.

Nerfing the ER Large Laser definitely hurt the Clan lights. But even on the SCR, it only marginally affected the laser boat builds with the switch to an LPL given the other bonuses available.

And even if you ignore the pure laser boats, the ERML+Gauss or MPL+Gauss builds are also ridiculous,

I have less of a problem with SRMs being able to pack that punch when boated because their effective range is so short. And LRMs at least have an answer in the I.S. and a long list of drawbacks.

So you are telling me that the Summoner with 4 MPL is OP? Okay...instead of blanket nerfing a weapons system which has finally become viable, how about you call for fixes to the chassis you have an issue with, Timberwolf and Dire Wolf. Now, the Gauss MPL Dire Wolf is annoying, but it is also pretty easy to take down assuming you do not just charge straight at it. I see no problems with it, especially as the most common reason it ever shot you in the first place is because you screwed up and put yourself in front of it. The Timberwolf with 7 MPLs is a strong 'Mech, yes, but to call for a nerf to the MPL just because one or two chassis can boat it well is idiotic, because it hurts every other chassis too. Nerfing the MPL would only drive more people towards CERMLs anyways.

Edited by 101011, 28 August 2014 - 05:04 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

sneak preview of the changes looks good except for buffing Clan streaks 'n lurms What about that poor old 10 ton LRM-20?

[Why Run]

Like no one would have noticed the beam duration change, the massive heat spikes, etc on the LLs? Or the PPCs nerf to oblivion? These folks are complete morons...

[Carrie Harder]

Finster, on 28 August 2014 - 03:15 AM, said:

http://www.reddit.co..._the_pts_xpost/

So the good news is that there's no beam duration increases on Clan guns.

The bad news is that most of the weapons hit didn't really need it.


ISERLL: Why the duration nerf? This weapon was pretty well balanced. I don't know of many people who could call it overpowered while keeping a straight face.

CERSL: Heat increase AND range decrease. So it's weaker than TT, shorter ranged than TT, and now hotter than TT. It was already fairly pointless to use due to the ERML, and now it's no contest...

CERML: Seriously, they should have just restored the ISML heat to 3 to "equalize" this with the ISML. But nope, just more bandaids stacked on top instead.

CERLL: Looks like an overall net nerf, but maybe the new 1.6s duration might be bearable. Maybe.

CSPL: Why in the hell did this weapon get a heat nerf and range nerf? It was already useless and vastly inferior to the Inner Sphere Medium Laser (both are 1 ton).

CMPL: Another not-overpowered weapon that got hit. Who exactly complained about the Medium Pulse?

CLPL: Again, more pulse laser nerfs that were arguably undeserved. The LPL only became a "meta" weapon because of the CERLL and CERPPC nerfs that created a power vacuum.

CLRM5: I've only seen like, 1-2 people using this weapon. Most people went for at least 10 tubes per launcher.

CLRM10/15/20: Okay, so these actually got buffed slightly, even though they already had their uses...

CSSRM4: Still a long cooldown, but better.

CSSRM6: See above.

Edited by Carrie Harder, 28 August 2014 - 05:59 AM.

[Tombstoner]

Clans should not be changed or adjustedat all or i call " pay to win". The only correct way to balance IS and Clans is by numbers.

of cource last time you did ignor 56 pages of feed back..... why should this be any difrent.

P.S. Very wise move not telling us how badly you nerfed clan tech. just be for it became open to all...makes me wonder...

[General Taskeen]

"Clan weapon balance test: As you know we have a large task on our hands to figure out the very best way to handle balancing Clan vs IS before the competitive aspects of CW come online."

FYI PGI Clan/IS will never be effectively balanced as long as you keep the programming in for the original heat system. On average a Clan Mech can mount more DHS, which means a higher heat threshold in combination with more weight-efficient weaponry. In other words, the ability to fire more damaging weapons for a LOT longer.

Previous MW games were able to balance even Pure Tech customization where all Mechs had the same heat threshold amount for both IS and Clan Mechs, regardless of # of heatsinks or type of weaponry, with faster dissipation rates.

Changing numbers and stats does not address root issues of which there are many.

Edited by General Taskeen, 28 August 2014 - 06:02 AM.

[-Natural Selection-]

Noober, on 28 August 2014 - 04:44 AM, said:

Thanks for the communication and the PTS use, much appreciated.

Other aspects of clantech are the real offenders in my eyes: Clan tankability (XL engine, clan item health nerfs pl0x?).

What if they just change the name to "Clan standard engine". Then the only issue people should have is speed.

By that reasoning IS standard mechs should be addressed also.

I have 6 armor in my Timbers arms (heatsinks only in them) and amazingly finish 70% of my matches with both arms, and very little ct damage. Side CT is all people shoot at,, like its a bad habit.

[DarthPeanut]

Glad to see this and the idea of a blind weapons test (although it is not blind for long).

IS burst cannon... DO. NOT. WANT. I hope we never see this. It ruins the unique flavor of ac's between IS and Clan. It also would nerf IS ac's unless they change slot use, weight, etc as well. Leave it alone.

ETA: If the above is correct and the ERLL duration is increased... terrible. The IS weapon burn times are one of the balances against clan lasers. Clan lasers are less slots, weight, more range, etc. One of the only substantial advantages of the IS is that reduced burn time!

Clan LRM changes and the IS ERLL changes have me scratching my head what they are thinking. Clan laser changes I expected and seem fairly reasonable given how strong they are right now (see laser vomit builds).

Edited by DarthPeanut, 28 August 2014 - 07:32 AM.

[Why Run]

wait what? it's not a blind weapons test. They continue to treat us like idiots. Don't prejudge based on numbers? Don't you understand that we players understand the game better than the designers? People took the LL numbers and IMMEDIATELY identified what would happen based on numbers alone, and sure enough, WE WERE RIGHT. Now they insult us again, by not posting the numbers... well not on their official site, but on their proxy Reddit page where they communicate actual information about their game...

[wanderer]

Pssh. A player posted the .xml file info.

Secrets and testing don't mix. The only reason I can see for it here was thinking the test stats would leave such a bad taste in people's mouths that nobody would show up.

Thanks for the 3 million C-bill module tax to even make up for part of the degradation on lasers, BTW.

[Jon Phoenix]

Why Run, on 28 August 2014 - 06:21 AM, said:

wait what? it's not a blind weapons test. They continue to treat us like idiots. Don't prejudge based on numbers? Don't you understand that we players understand the game better than the designers? People took the LL numbers and IMMEDIATELY identified what would happen based on numbers alone, and sure enough, WE WERE RIGHT. Now they insult us again, by not posting the numbers... well not on their official site, but on their proxy Reddit page where they communicate actual information about their game...

Blind tests require controls, especially of the variables involved. I don't see any of that (and never have). This is yet another test of massive amounts of variables and there's no way that any real and meaningful conclusions can be made.

-Jon (often sees a lot of experimenter-side validity issues in action with PGI, particularly confirmation biases)

Edited by Jon Phoenix, 28 August 2014 - 06:48 AM.

[xeromynd]

As of last night (according to a couple of buddies) the PTS was functional and CBills and MC were infused, so technically you can get to building your dream-builds right away, instead of waiting until the PTS period.

However I'm not entirely sure whether these profile 'snapshots' were from the last PTS or not, clarification would be nice, but I'm guessing it's the newer one.

Edited by xeromynd, 28 August 2014 - 06:57 AM.