116 replies to this topic

[Nauht]

Graugger, on 31 August 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

PGI worked to nerf the Victor and as with 90% of their nerfs, they're never going to undo it as that would make their work redundant.

Not true. Give it two years and it'll come full circle again - I mean look at ppc's.

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 31 August 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

Victor is completely fine. Its my highest kdr mech with over 2kdr. over 1k matches per mech You guys should learn how to pilot a victor perhaps.


I do see allways the same ppl on the forum confirming each other. The Forum became like a parallel world where the ingame reality doesnt gets reflected anymore. Thats why this forum is kinda useless due to some ppl 24/7 forum warrior instead actually playing the game.


The victor its Jumpjet needs actually a nerf- 2 ton instead 1 ton.

Says the guy that joined on 24 May this year.

[Adiuvo]

Ultimatum X, on 31 August 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

XL Compatible doesn't mean "safe".

The Victor's STs aren't exactly tiny - they are good.


But they are not that hard to hit at all - its also become a lot more common to take ST damage with all of the laser spam and SRM builds running around.

The Victor's XL safety comes from both its side torso size and its arm size. The side torsos are easy to shield and in general spreading damage on a Victor is reliable. The situation hasn't really changed SRM or laser builds.

Anyways, the benefit of the Victor and what made it overpowered was its compatibility with XL engines where every other assault did not enjoy those benefits.

[Ultimax]

Adiuvo, on 31 August 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

The Victor's XL safety comes from both its side torso size and its arm size. The side torsos are easy to shield and in general spreading damage on a Victor is reliable. The situation hasn't really changed SRM or laser builds.

Anyways, the benefit of the Victor and what made it overpowered was its compatibility with XL engines where every other assault did not enjoy those benefits.

Well you comp guys got me in a tizzy.

You say it's safe, and Jager says it's not safe and that it's just "compatible".

Who is a guy supposed to believe?


In all seriousness, the Victor's STs really are not that hard to hit - yes you can use an XL in them. I did when I played mine, but losing a side torso still means death - this doesn't happen with the Atlas.

So I see no reason why the Victor should torso twist as poorly as the Atlas, this was the only part of the nerf I thought went too far.

[Nauht]

Adiuvo, on 31 August 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

The Victor's XL safety comes from both its side torso size and its arm size. The side torsos are easy to shield and in general spreading damage on a Victor is reliable. The situation hasn't really changed SRM or laser builds.

Anyways, the benefit of the Victor and what made it overpowered was its compatibility with XL engines where every other assault did not enjoy those benefits.

What made it so compatible with XL's? The ability to JJ effectively to avoid fire - cos most people can't aim reliably at a ST at an airborne target.

Well gee, guess what? JJ nerf has rendered that viable tactic dead. Now you got a mech that's as wide as an Atlas that twists at the same speed.... 20 tons lighter.

I dare you to pilot an Atlas with an XL with 20 tons less armour/weapons and see how that works out for you.

But I'm only posting put of nostalgia cos I was always a clanner at heart - and playing in a clan mech against Victors they're easy meat. Easy to aim and shoot out a ST, even with torso twisting cos, guess what, I just wait until they're forced to face me to shoot and I just alpha then.

Speaking as a clanner now, Victors are by far much, much easier to take out than an Atlas.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

alls im gonna say is my 9s has replaced all my other variants even dragon slayer as a result of its ability to still kinda jump and i can outfit it like my HM was before this nerfathon against jumping assaults started.

[Adiuvo]

Ultimatum X, on 31 August 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

Well you comp guys got me in a tizzy.

You say it's safe, and Jager says it's not safe and that it's just "compatible".

Who is a guy supposed to believe?


In all seriousness, the Victor's STs really are not that hard to hit - yes you can use an XL in them. I did when I played mine, but losing a side torso still means death - this doesn't happen with the Atlas.

So I see no reason why the Victor should torso twist as poorly as the Atlas, this was the only part of the nerf I thought went too far.

The compatible/safe thing is just semantics... the point is that the Victor is fine to use an XL engine in and benefits more from one than it would from using a standard engine. No XL engine mech is truly 'safe' because using one does reduce survivability to a degree. This is true even with clan mechs. However, the risk/reward curve is drastically in favor of using an XL rather than a standard engine.

Against a properly played Victor you're not going to hit the side torso over and over again, even with the agility nerf. It does not need a buff of any kind whatsoever. Every top player would agree.

Nauht, on 31 August 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

What made it so compatible with XL's? The ability to JJ effectively to avoid fire - cos most people can't aim reliably at a ST at an airborne target.

Well gee, guess what? JJ nerf has rendered that viable tactic dead. Now you got a mech that's as wide as an Atlas that twists at the same speed.... 20 tons lighter.

I dare you to pilot an Atlas with an XL with 20 tons less armour/weapons and see how that works out for you.

But I'm only posting put of nostalgia cos I was always a clanner at heart - and playing in a clan mech against Victors they're easy meat. Easy to aim and shoot out a ST, even with torso twisting cos, guess what, I just wait until they're forced to face me to shoot and I just alpha then.

Speaking as a clanner now, Victors are by far much, much easier to take out than an Atlas.

Uh... no, the JJ nerf did nothing about that. The JJ animation is the same regardless, and that is what helped the Victor spread damage. The Timberwolf has the same thing. Both mechs hop quite high when just tapping the JJ button, which is why bunny hopping is possible.

The Atlas and Victor comparison isn't valid for reasons I previously mentioned.

I'm sure you do that daily... that's great. Though to be completely honest, I doubt you do that against anyone good piloting the mech properly. Because it doesn't happen when people pilot it properly.

[Quizzical Coconut]

Adiuvo, on 31 August 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

The compatible/safe thing is just semantics... the point is that the Victor is fine to use an XL engine in and benefits more from one than it would from using a standard engine.

Does your idea of class balance revolve around assault mechs being incompatible with XLs?

[Nauht]

Adiuvo, on 31 August 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

Uh... no, the JJ nerf did nothing about that. The JJ animation is the same regardless, and that is what helped the Victor spread damage. The Timberwolf has the same thing. Both mechs hop quite high when just tapping the JJ button, which is why bunny hopping is possible.

The Atlas and Victor comparison isn't valid for reasons I previously mentioned.

I'm sure you do that daily... that's great. Though to be completely honest, I doubt you do that against anyone good piloting the mech properly. Because it doesn't happen when people pilot it properly.

Eh? So you're telling me the JJ nerf didn't do anytthing to the vertical power of the Victor and othe assaults?

Now I know you're trolling.

You worked out a way to fire from the sides too? Torso twisting helps at range. You still got to face me to shoot...

But keep it nerfed.
Like I said I'm now a clanner and like the easy targets. Cos almost guaranteed I see a Victor it's almost always got an XL and it only takes 1-2 alphas to knock one out. Even easier when my alpha is about 76-80 pts.
But it's cute watching them try to brawl, hopping about a foot off the ground while vainly trying not to face me.

[Viges]

http://www.twitch.tv...light/c/4533348

damn twitch has deleted so many good videos already...

Edited by Viges, 31 August 2014 - 05:34 PM.

[Past]

Nerfs felt overdone before jumpjets were nerfed remove the -20% turning speed at the very least.

[Adiuvo]

Quizzical Coconut, on 31 August 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

Does your idea of class balance revolve around assault mechs being incompatible with XLs?

Not particularly. Generally though if an assault can mount an XL relatively safely then it's going to be a problem. Much how if a mech has large arms, small side torsos, high hardpoints, and an asym loadout it will be a good mech.

Nauht, on 31 August 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

Eh? So you're telling me the JJ nerf didn't do anytthing to the vertical power of the Victor and othe assaults?

Now I know you're trolling.

You worked out a way to fire from the sides too? Torso twisting helps at range. You still got to face me to shoot...

But keep it nerfed.
Like I said I'm now a clanner and like the easy targets. Cos almost guaranteed I see a Victor it's almost always got an XL and it only takes 1-2 alphas to knock one out. Even easier when my alpha is about 76-80 pts.
But it's cute watching them try to brawl, hopping about a foot off the ground while vainly trying not to face me.

In terms of spreading damage, no, it didn't have an effect. Spreading damage was reliant on JJ animations which were not changed.

If you don't think torso twisting is effective I'm not sure what to say. The game doesn't take place in a 1v1 environment. Furthermore I'm not sure why you're trying to use an overpowered mech (Daishi) fighting in its ideal environment as proof of anything...

Edited by Adiuvo, 31 August 2014 - 05:40 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

I love how everyone whines about the victor.

Look, it's nerfed hard, yes. And there are MUCH better mechs in the weightclass.

But I NEVER played victors during it's "Golden" Era, and frankly, the mech isn't bad... is it sub par? Yeah... it's a higher weight Centurian basically that's a bit slower, but jump capable, and with a different HP layout.

But it's a far cry from bad... Locust's are "Bad" for instance, but Victor's... naa, they're not that bad, just require more of a hit/run playstyle that's difficult to pull off.

In a Victor, you should beable to out armor most mediums, and take atleast one with you before you go down, you should be utilizing ranged AC's, Medium Lasers and SRM's... or relying on LRM's then switching to closer range AC and Medium lasers.

Everyone got so used to how good the mech used to be, they simply rally against the nerfs and say "But it's SOO bad." No... you just experienced it when it was TOO GOOD.

[SgtMagor]

anybody who regularly piloted a Victor before the Data reset and nerfs, know that this mech doesn't seem like a Victor anymore, Atlas with jumpjets maybe. and even though the Dragon Slayer had a gauss rifle as its main weapon, its mobility and agility quirks allowed it to brawl at close range and still make good use of the gauss rifle. and as was stated a few times its negative quriks, along with the jump jet nerfs leaves no reason to pilot the mech anymore...at least for me.

[Nauht]

Flash Frame, on 31 August 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

I love how everyone whines about the victor.

Look, it's nerfed hard, yes. And there are MUCH better mechs in the weightclass.

But I NEVER played victors during it's "Golden" Era, and frankly, the mech isn't bad... is it sub par? Yeah... it's a higher weight Centurian basically that's a bit slower, but jump capable, and with a different HP layout.

But it's a far cry from bad... Locust's are "Bad" for instance, but Victor's... naa, they're not that bad, just require more of a hit/run playstyle that's difficult to pull off.

In a Victor, you should beable to out armor most mediums, and take atleast one with you before you go down, you should be utilizing ranged AC's, Medium Lasers and SRM's... or relying on LRM's then switching to closer range AC and Medium lasers.

Everyone got so used to how good the mech used to be, they simply rally against the nerfs and say "But it's SOO bad." No... you just experienced it when it was TOO GOOD.

Glad we agree that Victors, as an assault, are better than mediums.

Victor pilot - "oh ho! A medium, perfect!"
Victor pilot - "oh ****! A boomjager, TW, Phract or any other assault! Run and torso twist quick!"

[Ultimax]

Adiuvo, on 31 August 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

The compatible/safe thing is just semantics... the point is that the Victor is fine to use an XL engine in and benefits more from one than it would from using a standard engine. No XL engine mech is truly 'safe' because using one does reduce survivability to a degree. This is true even with clan mechs. However, the risk/reward curve is drastically in favor of using an XL rather than a standard engine.

Agreed.

However this brings us back to the Atlas vs. the Victor.


Victor is benefiting from a riskier engine, by gaining more firepower and speed than it otherwise would.

Both of them can run 350s (Atlas STD and VTR XL) and run a very similar brawling layout (AC 20, 3x ASRM6, 2x MLAS) - although the Atlas still ends up with a few tons to spare.

It also ends up with the same torso twist to protect XL Side torsos, to protect a CT all of which have less armor than the Atlas.

That doesn't mean the Victor is bad, but something is wrong when a Victor with a 350 torso twists slower than a Battlemaster or a Stalker using only 300 STDs.

Should the Victor with a 300 STD torso twist slower than every other assault mech in the game by a large margin?

Should it actually torso twist slower than the Banshee with the same size engine?


There's a point where the level of some nerfs don't make sense, and in my opinion this is one of them.

Flash Frame, on 31 August 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

In a Victor, you should beable to out armor most mediums, and take atleast one with you before you go down, you should be utilizing ranged AC's, Medium Lasers and SRM's... or relying on LRM's then switching to closer range AC and Medium lasers.

It's a assault mech, it should be able to take on any single medium mech without breaking a sweat.

[Nauht]

Adiuvo, on 31 August 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

If you don't think torso twisting is effective I'm not sure what to say. The game doesn't take place in a 1v1 environment. Furthermore I'm not sure why you're trying to use an overpowered mech (Daishi) fighting in its ideal environment as proof of anything...

Did I say Daishi anywhere?

And yeah torso twisting is not effective at brawling ranges. Once you get the rhythm of the torso twists it's almost like a dance... turn away, wait, turn to me, fire, turn away again...

It really is not hard to wait that extra second for the Victor, or any other mech, to turn back to face me. Every single mech has to turn front on to fire.

[Adiuvo]

Ultimatum X, on 31 August 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

Agreed.

However this brings us back to the Atlas vs. the Victor.


Victor is benefiting from a riskier engine, by gaining more firepower and speed than it otherwise would.

Both of them can run 350s (Atlas STD and VTR XL) and run a very similar brawling layout (AC 20, 3x ASRM6, 2x MLAS) - although the Atlas still ends up with a few tons to spare.

It also ends up with the same torso twist to protect XL Side torsos, to protect a CT all of which have less armor than the Atlas.

That doesn't mean the Victor is bad, but something is wrong when a Victor with a 350 torso twists slower than a Battlemaster or a Stalker using only 300 STDs.

Should the Victor with a 300 STD torso twist slower than every other assault mech in the game by a large margin?

Should it actually torso twist slower than the Banshee with the same size engine?


There's a point where the level of some nerfs don't make sense, and in my opinion this is one of them.

If it benefits game balance nothing is wrong. Coupling engine size and twist speed is honestly one of the poorer design decisions the game has made and it prevents mechs from having unique aspects.

As for the twisting slower, Smurfy doesn't show that to be the case and I'm assuming it takes into account mech quirks. I don't have the base formulas on me to calculate this by hand but even if that was the case, the difference in straight line speed and associated accel/decel makes a magnitude of difference.

The Victor is still the best IS assault mech even post-JJ nerfs. It does not need a buff at all.

Nauht, on 31 August 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

Did I say Daishi anywhere?

And yeah torso twisting is not effective at brawling ranges. Once you get the rhythm of the torso twists it's almost like a dance... turn away, wait, turn to me, fire, turn away again...

It really is not hard to wait that extra second for the Victor, or any other mech, to turn back to face me. Every single mech has to turn front on to fire.

A 76-80pt alpha indicates that but I suppose that could be done with a Timberwolf as well, in which case what I said applies even more since that mech is even more broken.

As for torso twisting not being effective at brawling ranges... =/ It's a basic gameplay mechanic... if you really think that there's a major difference between your games and mine.

[Deathlike]

Adiuvo, on 31 August 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

As for torso twisting not being effective at brawling ranges... =/ It's a basic gameplay mechanic... if you really think that there's a major difference between your games and mine.

Technically yes, there is.

When most people reference the Victor, they primarily mean the Dragon Slayer. I have zero idea whether you bother piloting a 9S, but despite the arms having articulation requires more JJ power to lift so that the arms can shoot over that threshold. The DS, by the very nature of its energy RT allows for less clearance, therefore minimizing the lift required to shoot over said threshold.

As a result, it is FREE to use the the left arm to shield itself. This is NOT something the regular Victor can do. The weapons are on the arms, so you can't actually "shield" them w/o compromising your weapons. Something has to give. The DS does NOT have to give.

Every single time I read these things, they are read in some odd vacuum, not taking thought to other nuances of the mech design EXCEPT for the pro-approved builds that avoid many of the negatives. While you are debating in good faith, you're not doing due diligence at the primary and assume "it's still good" when you only mean ONE VARIANT that superior to the rest. That is almost disingenuous, and it doesn't show well.

Making a Victor like an Atlas IS NOT a proper balancing solution. There are more ways to apply nerfs or "balance" to a chassis, but you're not even properly comparing the mech to its peers. It's like saying the Awesome is "good enough" after the CT buff and yet they have gone back into hiding for the most part, due to other obvious flaws as a result. There's more to the mech than just 1 thing... it's always a confluence, and to ignore that is silly at best.

Edited by Deathlike, 31 August 2014 - 07:14 PM.

[Adiuvo]

Deathlike, on 31 August 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

Technically yes, there is.

When most people reference the Victor, they primarily mean the Dragon Slayer. I have zero idea whether you bother piloting a 9S, but despite the arms having articulation requires more JJ power to lift so that the arms can shoot over that threshold. The DS, by the very nature of its energy RT allows for less clearance, therefore minimizing the lift required to shoot over said threshold.

As a result, it is FREE to use the the left arm to shield itself. This is NOT something the regular Victor can do. The weapons are on the arms, so you can't actually "shield" them w/o compromising your weapons. Something has to give. The DS does NOT have to give.

Every single time I read these things, they are read in some odd vacuum, not taking thought to other nuances of the mech design EXCEPT for the pro-approved builds that avoid many of the negatives. While you are debating in good faith, you're not doing due diligence at the primary and assume "it's still good" when you only mean ONE VARIANT that superior to the rest. That is almost disingenuous, and it doesn't show well.

Making a Victor like an Atlas IS NOT a proper balancing solution. There are more ways to apply nerfs or "balance" to a chassis, but you're not even properly comparing the mech to its peers. It's like saying the Awesome is "good enough" after the CT buff and yet they have gone back into hiding for the most part, due to other obvious flaws as a result. There's more to the mech than just 1 thing... it's always a confluence, and to ignore that is silly at best.

I'm not just talking about the Dragon Slayer. I specifically referenced the 9S in one of my earlier posts here. The energy RT is hardly high enough to make that much of a difference and that's part of the reason the mech was so deadly. Because the energy hardpoints and the arm were only slightly offset the convergence on the mech was excellent even at long range. The Cataphract is the only real IS mech with JJs that can be considered a hill humper.

No, you don't have a full shield side with the 9S like you do with the DS. That is somewhat of a detriment, but the fact remains that the Victor still can damage roll with the best. As for talking with regards only to pro-approved builds... yes? That is a problem how? I'm not going to try to discuss balance with some AC2/LL Victor in mind.

If the mech is balanced then why is it not a 'proper' balancing solution? What suggestions do you have to otherwise nerf the mech, and why should we go back to a state of flux with regards to Victor balance when the problem has already been solved? Just because it seems weird?

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Adiuvo, on 31 August 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

The Victor's XL safety comes from both its side torso size and its arm size. The side torsos are easy to shield and in general spreading damage on a Victor is reliable. The situation hasn't really changed SRM or laser builds.

Anyways, the benefit of the Victor and what made it overpowered was its compatibility with XL engines where every other assault did not enjoy those benefits.

Dude dont argue with these pro forum warriors. They dont play the game we play and if they play (see them sometimes around) they end up dead with low dmg. Ignorem letem jell how bad the victor is and meanwhile we kick arrs in our victors and enjoy a "poor chassie"