109 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Budor, on 04 September 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

Not sure if serious.

BJ does have much better hitboxes, and FLD.

That is alot of firepower to go against, though.

I've heard the Vindi has terrible hitboxes, but nowhere near as large as the Nope-va.

Duran Vancor, on 04 September 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

Why is the Nova so undervalued? It dual wields Stalkers! One on each arm. 12 ERML = 9 ISLL + 3 damage.
It has more firepower than any IS Assault can even dream of, yet having any drawbacks like low slung arms "ruins" it.

Again, a medium mech with more firepower than assaults is bad because it has drawbacks too. WTH!

It's also the width of an assault mech.

That loadout is also hot as hell. 6 ERML and 6 ERSL is much more manageable. Low slung, bad hitboxes, nice firepower.

It's a Glass Cannon, not much else.

[Duran Vancor]

Mcgral18, on 04 September 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

It's also the width of an assault mech.

That loadout is also hot as hell. 6 ERML and 6 ERSL is much more manageable. Low slung, bad hitboxes, nice firepower.

It's a Glass Cannon, not much else.

I have no problem managing heat with the trial Nova. No skills, no modules like coolant and I'm an average pilot. Pick a hot map, I can fire the left arm, then the right arm and not overheat. My target might have lost a side torso (and possibly died) though.

"Nice firepower" is such an understatement. It has more firepower than any Innersphere mech can get. 9 Large Laser boats are impossible, yet the Nova has that amount of firepower (+3 damage).

Oh, it also got nice jumpjets and goes 81 kph before speed tweak. What a terrible, terrible mech indeed...

Edited by Duran Vancor, 04 September 2014 - 01:33 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Duran Vancor, on 04 September 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

I have no problem managing heat with the trial Nova. No skills, no modules like coolant and I'm an average pilot. Pick a hot map, I can fire the left arm, then the right arm and not overheat. My target might have lost a side torso (and possibly died) though.

"Nice firepower" is such an understatement. It has more firepower than any Innersphere mech can get. 9 Large Laser boats are impossible, yet the Nova has that ammount if firepower (+3 damage).

Which is spread. Generally, you try to avoid derping about and facetanking spread damage.


Though apparently the meta is now hitscan. How fast things can change.

[Budor]

I have killed people with 1 alpha over 400m and than went to sleep for 30seconds in the trial nova. I dont play that setup, just worth a mention cause it sure was funny ^^

[Duran Vancor]

Budor, on 04 September 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

I have killed people with 1 alpha over 400m and than went to sleep for 30seconds in the trial nova. I dont play that setup, just worth a mention cause it sure was funny ^^

Next time wait half a second before firing the other arm. You won't get any ghost heat and be good to go. 5 Seconds later you can pop out of cover and 1 (ok 2) shot the next guy.

[MechB Kotare]

I honestly dont mind evading the lore, and having the clan tech in pair with IS tech.

What i find as unnacceptable is the fact that most balancings are waaay out of control. cERLL beam duration increase was beautifull proof of that...

At one hand, PGI tries to remove ultra Long range engagement. cERLL at this point was perfect example. Instead of range decrease, you prolong already long beam duration into almost useless. That actually promoted cERLL for ultra long range engagement.

Same with PPCs. 5 months ago, Devs claimed that PPCs/ERPPCs are in perfect place as they were before another latest massive overnerf. All of sudden. The weapon is OP, it links to much. Its pinpoint poptart meta with ac5s, gauss w/e. Instead of increasing heat, cooldown or w/e you change its projectile speed, and place the weapon on second place, thus creating new meta cLPLs in combo with cERML....

People complain about high pinpoints, people complain about poptarts (while poptarting is only abusing of current [broken] JJ mechanics)

People keep complaining. So they nerf the JJs into something like Hoverjets now. You are forced to take 4 JJs to get some elevation advantage, or you can mount just 1 so you can bunny hop with broken JJ animations of TimberWolves and Victors to spread the damage even better. (Now its far more viable to take just one JJ for hill climbing to get movement advantage than taking 4 JJs. Highlanders got nerfed rapidly.

Same with LRMs. They got buffed from 115m/s (i think) to 175m/s (or something) then slighly nerfed to 150 (or what) LRM flooding is still here.

Etc etc.

Seems to me like PGI constantly keeps failing to adress the main issues with those weapons = thus they cant balance.

As for IS ac being better than Clan ACs. That is not really true. Best way to destroy a mech as fast as possible without taking that much of punishement in return is causing him constant screenshake. Reason why direwolf with 6x cUACs 5 would destroy a direwolf with 6x isUACs 5. Clan ones weight less, overall DPS is higher. Its also reason why are you screwed once you get narced by LRM boating (swarming/flooding) team on unbalanced maps (in this regard that is) such as Caustic.

So no Khan Carns. You are wrong.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 04 September 2014 - 02:38 PM.

[Rushmoar]

Gyrok, on 04 September 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

12 VS 12 will never be what you want it to be...I can promise you that. It will literally kill this game entirely if clan mechs = IS mechs with new skins.

Period. You cannot fathom how many refund requests will get sent if that day comes...seriously...

No one said Clan mechs need to be carbon copies of IS mechs. I predict that out of all the people that play MWO, the ones with TT back grounds and who have read the novels, would barely crack the 35% of the player base. They have sold over 25,000 clan packs of varying levels and i'm sure they made over 5 million in sales from that. So if most of the player base thinks like you do and is playing TT also, Battle Tech would be sold in Walmart right now.

12 v 10 is fine for a turn based game. No one will say GG at the end a mach< all you will hear is "wish I didn't need any skill to win," "glad your mech did all the fighting for you." Or I guess you guys need a couple of babysitters to win" and "what did you expect they had 2 extra people." It will never be about the game play. this is not Table Top game play, its live action and I'm not going to wait for you to make a move.

the only way 12 v 10 will work if it is its own game mode, with its own mech values, separate from the 3 modes we currently have. I would also like to see a stock load out mode as well. 12 v 10 on Conquest, there is no point in fighting IS just needs to cap period. i also will say the opposite statement. If we get 12 v 10 I bet a quarter of the player base will leave in 6 to 8 weeks out of frustration and only hard core fans will remain. I say make 12 v 10 a game mode then we'll see if that's the best for MWO.

Cheers all.

Edited by Rushmoar, 04 September 2014 - 03:21 PM.

[Dark Jackal]

MechB Kotare, on 04 September 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Etc etc.

Seems to me like PGI constantly keeps failing to adress the main issues with those weapons = thus they cant balance.

Almost there.

It's actually some ways an expectation on how long they want the average pilot to survive in this game based on how much damage they take and how much they want to deliver. Similiar to removing health packs in other games and just adding a blood screen if they're hit but not enough to penalize them too much with an outright loss/death screen for a small mistake.

Think of this sort of unending nerf-batting-average in a sense of trying to penalize less the hard mistakes folks do playing and allow them to regroup and have a chance at fighting back so to speak. I'm a bit sick of it myself considering it's two years of some nerf or other but it is what it is and what brought you every nerf from gauss cats to janner lesors to splat cats to CERML of doom. Queue in "ghost heat" and now it becomes clear on what it attempts to accomplish but also highlights that it's really is a band-aid.

Now folks call this the "meta-" whatever but there is no real meta at all, just which flavor of the week is costing players too much for a mistake or two each week. So, if you manage to do well enough as I did a number earlier this week in a nova, 750 pts of damage with 3 kills because the other team did not actually follow through and finish my crippled 'Mech but left me there to eat away and win with just torso internals, then that will certainly show up as "OP" because there is an unknown expectation they want folks in battlemechs to achieve. Since we have no baseline with which Paul does his alleged balancing "inline with expectations" (whatever that means) there will be indefinate nerfs and tweaking.

To top it all off, this is also skewed a bit as 'Mechs in general are allowed things never meant from the TT, like complete and total Front loading armor (100 pt CT Highlander lol) or any engine weight you want, just frankly will also break the game in ways that will be missed. It's obvious front-loading in particular is allowed so that much faster 'Mechs have a chance to get a kill in the rear torso as the heaviest 'Mechs perform like WW2-era Maus on steroids since no Assault pilot in his right mind is not going to place the vast majority of their armor to the Front engaging in a slug match given their slowness and lack of agility is crippling being caught with their pants down situations. And many of the particular 80 ton range Assaults are just as big square targets as their 95-100 ton counterparts but with a lot less armor to allow for room and agility to go under cover when they walked just a bit too far over the hill.

It is also why there will never be a true 12v10 because the overall balance will prevent such things and skew 'Mechs to behave to an average expectation whether they be IS or Clan Tech. This also become stronger if you consider the way Tech has been managed like the Cloak of Wretchedness and Despair ECM umbrella that essentially makes any attempt at LOS the TT had to target 'Mechs laughable with an non-augmented LRM boat that essentially has to dumb fire blindly at a 'Mech clearly visible and laughing back at range hoping the guy at the other side politetly obliges himself to standstill and take a few good shots for old times sake.

This went on longer than expected but any hoot, I hope the point has been made. Now for some Planet Side 2 spawn music as I listened to the Vanu one for over 40 minutes. (ROFL)

Edited by Dark Jackal, 04 September 2014 - 04:30 PM.

[Errant Audio]

This game allows us to customize with results on the field. The MM does not take into account weak builds or strong builds or even tonnage.
I think a better match maker would really help a lot of problems. NOT all.
( I am not sure how to deal with group mm without including numerical advantage/disadvantage.) but then, I shudder at the alternative of having all difference be stripped down until we are just playing Team Fortress with a mech skin.

Most clan players seem fine fighting against bad odds, providing their gear is up to snuff.

heck, in a clan v is que, figure a way to let a clan team lead bid less mechs for a quicker match...
just some brainstorm thoughts, please apply large grain of salt.

standing by to be talked down to, lol.

[WarZ]

Mister D, on 04 September 2014 - 05:36 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure my Nova-S with 6 ER-Medlas, 2 ER smalls, and 4 MG's + lvl1 targeting computer + lvl5 ERmedlas range module is going to be a meltdown machine after the nerfs.

I mean, afterall I've pretty much got 6 IS largelasers, 2 IS medlas worth of firepower there + 7% crit base, thats a hell of alot of firepower for a medium, even if it is a glass cannon.

So for 7 tons worth of lasers, I'm pushing 48 damage that I can put out every 4.3 seconds. Only IS mechs that can come close are the Banshee or Awesome, which is 2x its weight.

I'm honestly getting very tired of my clanmechs, its too easy to just rambo the hell out of the enemy and get away with it, strategy and outsmarting your enemy are backseat tactics to just ramming nose first into the enemy at full speed blasting away, Its just wrong.

Nerfs are welcome IMO.

I sense greatly exaggerated bullshit in your post...

[DarthPeanut]

Clan where very strong before these changes come in... they we be very strong after the changes. Not game breaking.

Anyone who thought clan weapons would come in perfectly positioned and get no adjustments was kidding themselves.

My 2 cents.

[WarZ]

Mister D, on 04 September 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

Definately not OP.
6 ERmedlas.

BTW, I would routinely do 1k to 1200 damage matches in my awesome 9m. Which sported a total of 2 lg las, and 4 med las. That was it. In an awesome. So... I guess IS med and large lasers need a serious nerf too.

Also, posting up ONE great round in no way even remotely means the weapons or chasis are OP. You simply had a good round.

Let me see if I can dig up my 1500 damage screenie for my awesome as noted above. Then of course IS mechs need nerfs now too by your reasoning.

[Mcgral18]

Mister D, on 04 September 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

Definately not OP.
6 ERmedlas.

IS Pulse Lasers OP:




Plz nerf teh Wub



Now, get a dozen of those, or rather consistently get over 1000 damage and you might have a point. That's simply not the case.

[Aresye]

Mister D, on 04 September 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

Definately not OP.
6 ERmedlas.

I've seen Locusts get 6+ kill, 1000+ damage matches.

OMG GUIZ! Locust OP!!

[Roland]

WarZ, on 04 September 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

BTW, I would routinely do 1k to 1200 damage matches in my awesome 9m.

I don't think you had 1000+ damage games in an awesome ROUTINELY. That sounds like something of an exaggeration.

[Ruhkil]

Dracol, on 04 September 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

Or option two, you practice. You get into that "Warrior Zone" where you're not even thinking about how far ahead you lead a target.... you just shoot and its on target.

The PPC is a PPFL damage weapon and requires skill to use. With the speed change, it increased the required skill level to achieve the same gains as before.

From what I can tell from your writing, you dropped into game post speed change, didn't get the same results you used to and so changed weapons.

The people getting the same returns as before stuck with the weapon, internalized the changed, and their game play adjusted. They saw a dip in their performance but have been able to adapt their skill level to overcome the change.

I am not trying to insult you or anything but i hate how the elitist comments come out "oh you just need to train more! lol".

you are correct: i changed weapons from 4 PPCS to 2 er large lasers and >2PPCS< . Then after realizing how terrible PPCS have been made for their intended use of mid range sniping/suppression i switched to hitscan weapons entirely.

The reason why it sucks for its intened use if multifactorial. sometimes a PPC will hit a piece of scenery that it shouldnt because of the broken map design with the speed change the number of missed shots will be so high that the only time you can reliably do damage is if the enemy is standing still or is completely unaware you are shooting at him


There are times where i will shoot at an enemy dead center from very close range with my cross hairs over his center torso and the PPC projectile moves so slowly that he is able to move forward during the brawl and have it miss. you can say "lead shots more" but what you really mean is "lead shots and hope the opponent does not change direction" what?! hope the opponent does not change direction? what kind of weapon system has the PPC become now.

this is not a nerf aimed directly at clans but it dumbs down the whole game and makes all the mechs that use PPCS harder to play but it is not rasing the skill cap at all it is simply making the PPC less effective.

its not like I abandoned the weapon entirely. what happened was i made a judgement call based on how the nerf hammer broke the weapon. IT BROKE THE PPC for goodness sakes.

Obviously people need to be skilled in order to do well in game but there is no degree of skill with this. lets say before the speed nerf i could hit 70% of the shots with my PPCS and now i hit 50%. You could be a narrow minded person and say "oh you just need to aim better".

IT is impossible to AIM a projectile that moves that slow. you can perfectly estimate the enemy mechs approximate position based on its current speed and adjust the requiste 10 mechs lengths in order to hopefully hit it and then have it CHANGE DIRECTION, TORSO TWIST, OR THE PILOT CAN HICCUP AND REMOVE HIS HAND FROM THE W KEY FOR SECOND AND YOU MISS!>

My point is that i have been using PPCS since i started with this game and i believe i am fairly good with them. I believe that the changes as they are implemented do not INCREASE the skill level of the weapon. They LIMIT THE NUMBER OF SITUATIONS WHERE IT IS HUMANLY POSSIBLE TO HIT ANYTHING. the projectile moves so slow that people can reverse assault mechs out of the way after I fire when i was aiming directly at them. It is supposed to be a bolt of lightning.

Edited by Ruhkil, 05 September 2014 - 05:50 AM.

[Ruhkil]

while i was writing for this topic I sort of had an epiphany. In a sense the changes as implemented make the 4 ppc warhawk play a lot like the ac/40 jager. cant hit targets at range and has high heat per alpha. yes i technically have an effective range of 810m wheras the Jager only has 270 but the way the nerf hammer was swung at BOTH CHASSIS makes their playstyles very similiar. what it should be is that the PPCS should do their damage with their speed and the AC/20s on the Jagermech should not have the ghost heat appled to it so that it can fire its short range FLPPD autocannons very often.

Instead swing the nerf bat and everybody run into the center of the map to impotently trade alphas from 100m and then shutdown like its mechassault.....

[El Bandito]

Ruhkil, on 04 September 2014 - 05:20 AM, said:

the speed of all PPCs now is 750m/s their max effective range is 810M so that means people have a full second to either adjust course or stop to avoid the shot and since I have to rely on the speed and responsiveness of MY TORSO as opposed to MY ARMS i cannot adjust the alignment of my weapons very well also if certain mechs move too fast i canno torso twist enough to lead them by the appropriate amount also the whole "lead the target" paradigm relies on the enemy mech staying on the same course at the same speed its luck not skill to snipe what if the enemy mech hits a little rock and the mechs speed decreases by 20% without either pilot anticipating such a thing. congratulations you missed your ppc shot! . I understand this facet of game balance to a degree but 750M/s?!?!?!! you have to be asleep to be hit by me at range even if i lead the target the right amount the pilot who may have no idea that I am shooting at him can accidentally save himself by slowing down a little perhaps to momentarily look at his map.

Where did this 750 m/s came from?

ERPPC and CERPPC have the speed of 950 m/s and regular PPC has the speed of 850 m/s. I think you are still asleep, bruh.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 September 2014 - 06:01 AM.

[Ruhkil]

El Bandito, on 05 September 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

Where did this 750 m/s came from?

ERPPC and CERPPC have the speed of 950 m/s and regular PPC has the speed of 850 m/s. I think you are still asleep, bruh.

wait a minute wasnt that the speed they dropped it too? I thought i read that in the patch notes a while back. did they do a slight un nerf and not tells us?

[El Bandito]

Ruhkil, on 05 September 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:

wait a minute wasnt that the speed they dropped it too? I thought i read that in the patch notes a while back. did they do a slight un nerf and not tells us?

Nah, PGI nerfed them to 950 and 850 respectably in the first place. They did not do any slight reverts afterwards.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 September 2014 - 06:13 AM.