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Clan Nerfs :(

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#1 Ruhkil

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 04:22 AM

Okay I just needed to post about this. the people screaming for clan nerfs need to read this. I am not saying that clan tech does not need a nerf but you have to understand it from our perspective.

so people know where I am coming from. I love Mechwarrior/BT I have been playing these computer games since mechwarrior 2 when I was a little kid. Something about this game series is just really cool!

I bought a clan pack and I am sort of dissatisfied with the way things are going. I do NOT want P2W there is no fun in just bludgeoning down opponents that can’t fight back. In some ways i can clearly understand the need for some nerfs since clans range and damage are so over the top that it breaks the game. For example the setup on my Warhawk prime currently is 2 ER large lasers and 2 LPL and a large targeting computer. I have both of the appropriate weapon range modules and the final ranges of my weapons where they do FULL damage is 1012m for the large lasers and 682m for the LPL. but because of the ghost heat penalties with the large lasers (the two types of lasers share a ghost heat restriction.) I cannot alpha them.

Essentially the Warhawk prime can now only snipe with its 2 ER-large lasers and then pitifully attempt to brawl when the enemy gets close. I am not the best player but I am not terrible either.
I was under the impression that the Warhawk is supposed to be a sort of mid range brawler a tough durable mech that stomps around firing into the enemy with its PPCS. Due to a combination of factors including heat scale map design balancing and other complicated issues it CANNOT DO THIS. It can only snipe with lasers now.

I was given to understand that the thing that pissed IS/F2P players off was the fact that clan mechs have insane ranges and damage with energy weapons. This facet of clan mechs has not been changed. What has been changed is that we no longer do consistent FLPPD and our only hope to be effective is to slap a big targeting computer in our mech and snipe from a defensible area to keep the IS mechs with ac/20s away from us.

I cannot really help my team hold the line unless the enemy gets scared of my 40ish DOT damage and stops charging our line to hide. so I am an assault mech who can only sit on a hill and hope he can burn through somebodies CT from 1300m away.
I am not complaining i just needed to share this experience.

The reason I bring this up is due to series of nerfs and changes to the clans this setup which is only really good at DOT sniping is the last setup i can think of for the Warhawk prime. using 4 ppcs is way too hot and with the speed nerf i cannot hit targets using a mixed energy setup with PPCS is still very hot and extremely difficult to use.

If they Nerf or otherwise debuff clan large lasers and large pulse lasers anymore than they currently have I will be forced to swap out omnipods off the warhawk to make it boat LRMS or SRMS.

In an effort to balance clan energy weapons PGI broke the clan mechs designed to boat laser weaponry. The clans as a faction in lore LOVE laser weapons they are clean, efficient and demonstrate pilot skill. Even if you are not a lore tryhard you must realize that the ingame variants of clan mechs COME FROM LORE. If you look at the stock variants of all the clan mechs and their hardpoints a good 80% of their damage overall comes from laser weapons. If we nerf clan lasers too much clan mechs become worse than ridiculous. Maybe a good solution is to make a few fluff omnipods for the warhawk so it can take a reasonable amount of autocannons instead of being rendered competely toothless with only energy hardpoints and nerfed laser weaponry?

I guess the point I am trying to make is I bought a masakari pack because I really liked using the warhawk in the various mech games and the warhawk is supposed to be a mech that can stomp around firing PPCS at things and help hold the line. with the way weapons and heat have been balanced and how heat sinks work it can’t do that. So i switched to various laser and ppc mixed builds those were nerfed heavily recently as you well know. So the only set up i can think of to be effective is to get a big targeting computer and shoot at mechs with large lasers from long ranges which is largely what is infuriating the IS players to begin with. This series of nerfs is having the opposite of its intended effect. Since I cannot reliably brawl with clan mechs anymore all I can do is snipe. Clan snipers and LRM boats are what is pissing people off on the IS side with these energy brawling nerfs i can only snipe or LRM :( .

if you nerf clans weapons burn time and heat we obviously cant brawl our only option is to use things like targeting computers to push our range advantage even more or make a goofy build with a ton of lrms. it limits builds and playstyles and makes everyone on both the blue and red teams upset. my team is pissed because I am an assault mech huddling in a corner not helping my team except by shooting people with small amounts of beam weapons from across the map. The other team is also unhappy because there is what essentially amounts to a big mean turret on a hill 1.5km away shooting them all the time and they cannot return fire or attempt to outflank me since i out range them.

sorry for the wall of text it is just a complicated situation that needs a lot of typing

Edited by Ruhkil, 04 September 2014 - 04:49 AM.


#2 Tristan Winter

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 04:34 AM

My Warhawk is doing fine with the following builds
  • 4 x LPL (I expect LPLs will be nerfed, as they're actually quite nice now)
  • 4 x CERPPC
  • 4 x LRM15, 1xCERLL, 3xCERML
  • 2 x CGauss, 2xLRM5
It's basically the Clan version of the AWS-9M, AWS-8Q or AWS-8R.

I do agree that the CERLL is ridiculous at the moment. It turns your Mech into a beacon, guiding all enemy ships safely to shore as your laser beam shines like a lighthouse in the night.

#3 Carrie Harder

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 04:41 AM

The issue that is that Paul is probably using the current 2-3 optimal Clan chassis (Mad Cat, Stormcrow, 2-3 specific Dire Whale builds) as the baseline for performance, and he's likely basing all of his weapon nerfs based on those 2-3 units. But the flaw with that plan is that the sub-par Clan chassis (yes, that's right, not all Clan mechs are truly good, just a few are) like the Suckoner and Badder will be rendered nearly unusable by continual nerf hammering. Meanwhile, Paul's baseline chassis will get off easier than their cohorts because of their inherently more optimal base chassis (i.e. Endo + Ferro, large engine by default) and good hardpoint options.

What should have happened is specific, incremental tweaks to any outlying chassis or weapons, rather than nerfing EVERY SINGLE one of them. Yes, that's right, there's only a few outliers, not the whole collection. Remember that there's currently 8 different chassis and well over 30 weapons available. Not all 8 chassis are overpowered, and not all 30+ guns are. Only a tiny subset are (2-3 mechs and roughly 5-7 weapons).

Edited by Carrie Harder, 04 September 2014 - 09:24 AM.


#4 Budor

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 04:51 AM

Every Clan Mech except lights is better or comparable to the best what the IS has in that weight class imo. 90% of IS variants are useless atm.

The nerfs that were on the PTS were all ok, i can not judge the spl and mpl heat though as i do not use those.

#5 Dracol

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 05:02 AM

View PostRuhkil, on 04 September 2014 - 04:22 AM, said:

The reason I bring this up is due to series of nerfs and changes to the clans this setup which is only really good at DOT sniping is the last setup i can think of for the Warhawk prime. using 4 ppcs is way too hot and with the speed nerf i cannot hit targets using a mixed energy setup with PPCS is still very hot and extremely difficult to use.

The 4 PPC build, which in theory can land a 40 pt Front Load damage with an additional 20 secondary, is a difficult mech to use..... sounds about right.

#6 Ruhkil

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 05:20 AM

View PostDracol, on 04 September 2014 - 05:02 AM, said:

The 4 PPC build, which in theory can land a 40 pt Front Load damage with an additional 20 secondary, is a difficult mech to use..... sounds about right.


true but the devil is in the details. It was difficult to use due to its heat and low tolerance for pilot error(missed shots etc) before the PPC speed nerf now the only thing i can engage with it is an enemy atlas everything else can see the PPC shot coming and torso twist out of the shot or just backup. This is the crux of the issue If I in my 4ppc warhawk see 4 enemy atlas(what is the plural of atlas?) stomping towards me I am completely unafraid. i just throw it into reverse which is about as fast as their forward walking speed and chain fire and they all hide. this is a legitimate complaint from IS players about balance i have no problems seeing this issue addressed somehow. Additionally with the slow PPCs the atlas mechs are the only thing I can hit so the nerfs did not solve the balance issue at hand.

If I see a single fire starter or Jenner on the other hand I get very afraid and run since I cannot hit them with how slow the PPCS move now. With the PPC speed nerf and the fact that clan mechs with PPCs have certain changes made to their arms so they have to rely on torso twisting to bring their weapons to bear some IS mechs like the cicada are so fast and can turn so quickly that they can essentially avoid all my shots and kill me at their leisure even if i hit them a little ill waste a ton of PPC shots and with heat scale i might not be able to fire enough times to protect myself from it. the shots that do hit do 10 damage instead of 15(I know the other 5 spread but really if you want to leg a Jenner do you really care that much about scratching its torso armor a bit?). The main way an assault mech fights a light is to do the counter circle to the enemy lights circle of death and the assault mech either puts its back to a wall or if it cant find a wall reverses its spin to try and trick the light mech into its sights. with the restrictions placed on clan assaults IS lights with their broken hitboxes and speed can indefinitely circle of death me with little to no risk as opposed to the low-moderate risk that same maneuver would have when fighting an enemy atlas with arms that move! which leads to me being a cowardly assault with a big targeting computer and some lasers in a corner of the map sniping the enemy assault mechs.

the speed of all PPCs now is 750m/s their max effective range is 810M so that means people have a full second to either adjust course or stop to avoid the shot and since I have to rely on the speed and responsiveness of MY TORSO as opposed to MY ARMS i cannot adjust the alignment of my weapons very well also if certain mechs move too fast i canno torso twist enough to lead them by the appropriate amount also the whole "lead the target" paradigm relies on the enemy mech staying on the same course at the same speed its luck not skill to snipe what if the enemy mech hits a little rock and the mechs speed decreases by 20% without either pilot anticipating such a thing. congratulations you missed your ppc shot! . I understand this facet of game balance to a degree but 750M/s?!?!?!! you have to be asleep to be hit by me at range even if i lead the target the right amount the pilot who may have no idea that I am shooting at him can accidentally save himself by slowing down a little perhaps to momentarily look at his map. the amount of lead time on ppcs now make them unable to snipe and the heat makes it impossible to brawl well with them. and I generate way to much heat with the nerfed pinpoint dmg ppcs to kill a brawler if he gets close. Do you see where i am going with this? there have been times where i have been brawling with enemy mechs at 300m aimed directly at their CT but they moved a little and the shot missed at 300M the other player twisted a tiny amount and my long range sniping weapon aimed directly at his CT missed at 300m !?! I feel like i have to aim at the left hand side of a mech to compensate for the speed of the projectile and will end up hitting it in the right arm.

so yes if an enemy mech sits completely still and purposefully allows me to shoot it in the chest with my 40 dmg pinpoint as you say then yes the Warhawk is powerful. it does the same damage as the *gasp* ac/40 jager however if the enemy player use the W key or the S key and is not drunk I am dead meat.

Edited by Ruhkil, 04 September 2014 - 07:09 AM.


#7 Gyrok

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 05:26 AM

What I want to know is...why is it ok to have some IS chassis and weapons better than clans...(ALL ACs for example...)...But it is absolutely not ok to have some clan weapons better than IS weapons?

#8 Budor

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 05:29 AM

View PostGyrok, on 04 September 2014 - 05:26 AM, said:

What I want to know is...why is it ok to have some IS chassis and weapons better than clans...(ALL ACs for example...)...But it is absolutely not ok to have some clan weapons better than IS weapons?


Because clan mechs can mount more weapons while being more mobile and not dying to side torso loss.

Edit: The only better IS auto cannons are 20s and 10s imo. 5s are debatable.

Edited by Budor, 04 September 2014 - 05:33 AM.


#9 Ryvucz

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 05:33 AM

Small Pulse Laser heat is ridiculously high.

Most likely will see an increase in heat.

Medium Pulse Lasers will have more heat and longer burn times.

And revisit Small Pulse Lasers and add longer burn time to match up with the rest of clan laser technology.

#10 NRP

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 05:34 AM

The proper way to "Nerf" Clan mechs is 10v12. Leave the damn weapons alone! No one who dropped a butt load of $$$ on Clan packages wants watered down weapons/mechs just for the sake of preserving 12v12 parity.

#11 Gyrok

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 05:36 AM

View PostBudor, on 04 September 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

Because clan mechs can mount more weapons while being more mobile and not dying to side torso loss.

Edit: The only better IS auto cannons are 20s and 10s imo. 5s are debatable.


No...there is no debate....You fire one slug and do your damage with IS ACs. Even the IS AC2 (while it may be worthless) is better than the CAC2.

There is nothing to dispute, at all...

As for clan chassis, most of the clan chassis are not as good as the best IS mechs in their category...so you are going to nerf already marginal weapons to offset that?

No, put your pitchforks and torches away...

#12 Cyborne Elemental

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 05:36 AM

I'm pretty sure my Nova-S with 6 ER-Medlas, 2 ER smalls, and 4 MG's + lvl1 targeting computer + lvl5 ERmedlas range module is going to be a meltdown machine after the nerfs.

I mean, afterall I've pretty much got 6 IS largelasers, 2 IS medlas worth of firepower there + 7% crit base, thats a hell of alot of firepower for a medium, even if it is a glass cannon.

So for 7 tons worth of lasers, I'm pushing 48 damage that I can put out every 4.3 seconds. Only IS mechs that can come close are the Banshee or Awesome, which is 2x its weight.

I'm honestly getting very tired of my clanmechs, its too easy to just rambo the hell out of the enemy and get away with it, strategy and outsmarting your enemy are backseat tactics to just ramming nose first into the enemy at full speed blasting away, Its just wrong.

Nerfs are welcome IMO.

Edited by Mister D, 04 September 2014 - 05:39 AM.


#13 Gyrok

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 05:39 AM

View PostMister D, on 04 September 2014 - 05:36 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure my Nova-S with 6 ER-Medlas, 2 ER smalls, and 4 MG's + lvl1 targeting computer + lvl5 ERmedlas range module is going to be a meltdown machine after the nerfs.

I mean, afterall I've pretty much got 6 IS largelasers, 2 IS medlas worth of firepower there + 7% crit base, thats a hell of alot of firepower for a medium, even if it is a glass cannon.

So for 7 tons worth of lasers, I'm pushing 48 damage that I can put out every 4.3 seconds. Only IS mechs that can come close are the Banshee or Awesome, which is 2x its weight.

Nerfs are welcome IMO.


10 vs 12!!!!!!!!!!!

#14 Carrie Harder

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 05:43 AM

View PostBudor, on 04 September 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

Because clan mechs can mount more weapons while being more mobile and not dying to side torso loss.

The Dire Wolf has the lowest mobility of any mech presently in the game. The Adder and Kit Fox are roughly 50% slower than most IS lights (106.9 kph versus 150+). The Nova is roughly average for medium mech speed, or slightly lower.

So that leaves half of the pack being more mobile, and half being less. The Warhawk depends on what you compare it to I guess. It's more mobile than the larger IS assaults, but Victors can easily outrun it due to their XL viability.


As for more weapons, bro do you even Summoner? The Adder also has very very few hardpoints. Kit Fox hardpoints are okay but not that great.

Edited by Carrie Harder, 04 September 2014 - 05:44 AM.


#15 pcunite

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 05:43 AM

Stop nerfing things. Utilize different ways to "balance" like putting an Atlas on the opposing team when an OP mech is detected. This game is becoming just like it's color palate ... BLAND ...

#16 Bigbacon

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 05:51 AM

View Postpcunite, on 04 September 2014 - 05:43 AM, said:

Stop nerfing things. Utilize different ways to "balance" like putting an Atlas on the opposing team when an OP mech is detected. This game is becoming just like it's color palate ... BLAND ...


this....

use mech quirks to balance things differently.

clan lights aren't that bad...not sure why people keep bitching about them. yes they are slower than IS lights but you need to play them differently.

Edited by Bigbacon, 04 September 2014 - 05:52 AM.


#17 Kutfroat

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 05:57 AM

View PostGyrok, on 04 September 2014 - 05:39 AM, said:


10 vs 12!!!!!!!!!!!


10 vs 12 is not an real option. why play an subpar IS mech if you get more rewards (exp and cbills) and likely more kills in every game in a clan mech? besides in their current state, 9 or even 8 vs 12 would be more realistic...but would off set rewards even more.

this is a shooter, not a turnbased tabletop game. this works in strategy games (zergs vs protoss in starcraft), but not in a shooter. IS and clans should play diffrent, but there should not be an unbalance in power, but i guess this is not posible. even if you bring clan weapons down to IS level, they still can bring more (lower weight and crit requirements), run cooler and faster without risk of dying to sidetorso loss. so i see no way to balance them.

seems just like it wasn´t the brightest idea to pick this "event" (claninvasion) as the core game...

#18 Blacksoul1987

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 06:07 AM

I don't think 10v12 is good idea but it doesn't really matter to me I bought most of the clan mechs it won't take much effort to switch my faction to clan.

#19 Garandos

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 06:10 AM

View PostBudor, on 04 September 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

Every Clan Mech except lights is better or comparable to the best what the IS has in that weight class imo. 90% of IS variants are useless atm.

The nerfs that were on the PTS were all ok, i can not judge the spl and mpl heat though as i do not use those.



The bigger part of IS mechs have allways been useless, thats nothing which is explained with "because CLANS!" if you think so, you are living in a fantasie world.

#20 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 06:22 AM

View PostBudor, on 04 September 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

Because clan mechs can mount more weapons while being more mobile and not dying to side torso loss.

Edit: The only better IS auto cannons are 20s and 10s imo. 5s are debatable.

PP.FLD is ALWAYS better. Nothing to debate.





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