876 replies to this topic

[Raeven]

Had a couple of ideas to balance clan vs IS.

One idea was to boost IS DHS by a decimal point or two. IS already pay a premium in tonnage to put in DHS, so a little boost there wouldn't hurt too much.

Another idea, was to increase the limit on the class of mechs allowed to drop to four each. So if a premade is entirely made up of IS mechs, they can drop with up to four assaults, lights, etc. In put matches, there would instead be a tonnage advantage over the clan via the matchmaker. In organized drops, the players can choose a heavier load or maximize on the number of light harassers they employ.

[Gumon Choji]

Please focus on benefits and the positives.

I love the idea that clan mechs are generic. They are OMNI. ok at all roles but not great. Inner Sphere is all about flavor and bonuses. I personally loved what you did to the Awsome. It made me get a few. And I love how they play. The boone on the Victor is also great. If you made the mechs of the IS have better turning. reverse. and flavor where the turn circle of the Clan was wider and reverse was even more difficult I think they would show how the clans can play. Clans are OMNI and all about how to mathematically improve a mech. The Inner Sphere is about "mech feel" They fit a role and feel unique.



I like this solution as if focuses on the positive and keeps the reality of the game that the Clan mechs look great on paper but should take lots of skill to use. Inner Sphere is how a mech would look after surviving for haundreds of years in endless years of war. They are tuned to the max but not as good on paper but still just as deadly.


Another idea to make the game more balanced is to use the old virtual world idea that if you lose a torso you need to turn off the coolent or die. The coolent would bleed out. The player of a clan mech must cut off collent to the lost limb manually or lose one heat sink worth of cooling per 2 seconds. This would keep the mech of the Inner Sphere feeling more durable as they take less work to run and keep clan mechs strong. you just must be ready to turn off limbs. Clan mechs can "bleed out". Inner Sphere mech will not do that.


Closing review.
1. Make the mechs feel different enough I love owning many more of both types. Good work on the buffing. (I buy stuff if it is fun)
2. Clan must look good on paper. Inner Sphere should be better controled.
3. Clan mechs can turn off limbs. Doing this is done to save their coolant when they lose limbs or torsos. This manual feature is because how engines work and that heatsinks are smaller, they lack redundant systems.

[Aym]

Russ Bullock, on 07 September 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

I believe the rule will be - 3 critical hits to the engine in the RT or LT will cause X% slowdown and x% heat. This of course will not impact IS mechs because with 3 critical engine hits to either torso means they are dead. It is true that a clan mech cannot get away from this because they have to use XL engines but look at the current situation. A Direwolf missing its RT is only still alive but moving and full speed and pointing up an entire IS mechs weapons at you still. They really dont seem that injured.

Many will ask, why not take this further so perhaps 1 critical engine hit in say the CT or just critical engine hits in general have these negative impacts. This is something that I believe has some credibility in the future. But step one to implement this functionality is to put this new negative impact onto Clan mechs that have lost a torso and review from there.

Was any thought given to, or is it even possible, to have Clan Mechs NOT reduce damage transferred from destroyed components? Could even be Lore-ish with the omni pods being more readily removed whereas IS mechs are more of a "whole beast." If completely impossible, bummer, but if not, thoughts on that instead of other plans for ST-engine nerfs?

Would make IS mechs seem tougher, slower, "older tech" while clan mechs would be sleeker, faster, better weapons etc, but vulnerable in their own way. Sort of an Eldar vs Orks or Protoss v. Zerg thing?

[Geck0]

I have no problem with the heat / move penalty for torso loss but please be reasonable. On top tier mechs like TW and SCR make the penalties worse than the lower tier mechs like Nova and Summoner. (Just an example). Gives you more reasons to bring Clan mechs that aren't too strong from the out set but have value in that they maintain effectiveness after some damage. And for the love of god don't make the DWF slower than it already is. Its already a liability in a lot of cases no need to make it slower just make it hotter please.

[IrrelevantFish]

I think people are oversimplifying the issue. "Are Clans OP?" is not a yes/no question. The Clans' longer beam-durations and dearth of single-projectile weapons becomes less relevant at higher skill levels, as pilots can track mechs longer and more accurately, as well as aim faster, giving targets less time to get behind cover. It's also less relevant when facing slower, larger mechs, as they are easier to track and need longer to escape.

Additionally, the bigger the mech, the less it has to gain from customizing upgrades and engines. Even if you completely ignore the speed differential, the crits/tons the Clans' lose to "over-sized" engines and "unnecessary" equipment/upgrades is often less than what you would lose by switching to a STD and bulkier IS upgrades, and the weight you'd save by switching to a lower-rated IS-XL would rarely be worth the loss of crits and survivability.

"But wait!" some may say. "What about the IS's superior pinpoint alphas?" They have apparently forgotten the last few years of loud QQ'ing and the myriad nerfs which PGI has used to bludgeon pinpoint nigh to death. Since the PPC slow-down drove the final nail into jump-sniping's coffin, the only pinpoint IS mech I see on the battlefield is the Gauss-Jager, and I'm sure once the player-base figures out how to make the Gauss-Wolf (hint: it's not hard ... at all) that it too will go the way of the Streak-a-pult.

However, all is not lost for those who refuse to buy a clan pack. The current Clan mediums are meh and the Clan lights are basically pint-sized mediums, so there's plenty of competitive IS chassis 55 tons and below. I can personally attest to the continuing viability of the Shadow Hawk and Jenner, and I've raged at many a NARC Raven and the Clan LRMs following in its wake.

"Well, sounds like things are balanced just fine," some may say. I say they're nuts. Yes, IS mediums and lights can still hang, but they're hardly dominant, whereas Clan heavies/assaults rule the slow-moving roost. I say things won't be balanced until Clan and IS are competitive in all four weight classes.

[VXJaeger]

NuclearPanda, on 05 September 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

This game is moving further and further away from being an actual Mechwarrior title into being Generic Robot Shooter XXVIV.

+666 to this. PGI is trying to reach target audience that just doesn't give a **** 'bout this game. In the end everything is nerfed for sakes of "balance", no edge anywhere and game is ruined to total average BS.
MWO already has enormous issues on hitreg and still weapons will be "balanced" more...yeah right.

[Caspian111]

Hello Nikolai and Russ,

I thank you for trying to improve the game balance. But depsite all your efforts, you are still missing one important thing! The tonnage difference! I already post a thread about it 10 months ago, and you never paid attention to it....
http://mwomercs.com/...ed-matchmaking/

The purpose of my thread was to show you, that is the "tonnage difference" between the sum of tonnage per team is above 20%, the heaviest team will tend to win.

And as you cannot balance the tonnage in your matchmaking system, it would better and easier for you to focus on restricting the mechs numbers and classes to avoid a large tonnage difference.


So why would you not add 4 more conditions to the starting 3-3-3-3 group rule:

1 st condition would be: we can only group 2x the same mech in the group (example: max 2x DWF)
2 nd condition: when there is at least 3 people in a group, they must have at the minimum 2 difference classes
3 rd condition: when there is at least 4 people in a group, they must have at the minimum 3 difference classes
4 th condition: when there is at least 5 people in a group, they must have at the minimum 4 difference classes

What do you think about it? Would it be realistic to implement? What do you think about this?

I hope you will take some time to answer it.

Caspian111

[Threat Doc]

What we need to do is have fewer, but more accurate, conditions, than we need more conditions, which would make it even more difficult to get games quickly, let alone even teams than what we have, now.

Look, I only played seven matches last night, because we kept getting rolled. I already know I'm not a great player, and sometimes I drag down my team, but the sorts of losses we had over five out of seven games, last night, were a direct result of searching forever. In case you don't understand it, tonnage limitations, 3/3/3/3, the age of the group in the matchmaker, and Elo are the four current conditions being met for the game. Each of these has what has been termed a release valve and, the longer the search goes on, the more these are opened up to allow for increasingly looser matches. After about thirty seconds of search time, these have already opened up by about 8 - 11%, and after a minute you're talking about 20 - 25%, and so on. At 25%, however, you're talking about three 'Mechs, whether of the same or up to three weight classes, that can be swapped out for other weight classes, and the overall weight change can make it impossible to keep weight values even remotely close. At this point, as well, you're talking about a potential Elo difference of 460 to 575 points, for pete's sake, which is a HUGE difference. So, with all of these changes over the course of ONLY the first minute of waiting, you're talking about opening games so that you're either facing a horribly inferior team, or you're facing, even worse, a horribly superior team.

If you add MORE conditions, and give those relief valves, as well, you're talking about lengthening search times EVEN MORE, which will lend to even more disparate teams in shorter amounts of wait time.

No, I cannot agree with your idea of adding more conditions.

Edited by Kay Wolf, 26 September 2014 - 08:10 AM.

[Hoax415]

Yeah as Kay Wolf says that is a terrible idea.

It'd be great if they made teambuilding even in pick up groups a part of CW then you could add in those types of restrictions like you could in a 12-man only queue now if you wanted.

But in the solo queue and group queue of public games we are never going to see more special rules and restrictions because it will reduce the quality of matches and increase the time it takes to find these new lower quality matches.

[Kain Demos]

I think if they allowed independently hosted servers that would satisfy the "hardcore BT/Roleplay" crowd if those servers would have their own "rules" like 10v12 and different weapon values.

[Hoax415]

That's what private mode is. It already exists and you can drop 10v12.

It could use a ton more features certainly but it does sort of exist. Hardly anybody uses it but there are several leagues that use it and then run special restrictions.

Look up Inner Sphere Wars or the Marik Civil War if you're curious. Or just go through the entire player run event forum on these boards.

Edited by Hoax415, 26 September 2014 - 11:20 AM.

[Threat Doc]

Kain Thul, on 26 September 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

I think if they allowed independently hosted servers that would satisfy the "hardcore BT/Roleplay" crowd if those servers would have their own "rules" like 10v12 and different weapon values.

Hoax415, on 26 September 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

That's what private mode is. It already exists and you can drop 10v12.

It could use a ton more features certainly but it does sort of exist. Hardly anybody uses it but there are several leagues that use it and then run special restrictions.

Look up Inner Sphere Wars or the Marik Civil War if you're curious. Or just go through the entire player run event forum on these boards.

PGI have already expressed they intend to give control to the players to make their own servers -that may have changed, by now, because it was a LONG time ago they said that-, but I would prefer they complete the game for their own server(s) first, and then build the system for allowing others to do their own thing.

Hardly anyone uses private match mode, now, because you have to have two people with Premium Time to have two teams. And, like you said, it could use quite a few more features. However, I would like to point out that, as the community returns, and/or increases in size, Private Matches will become more prolific.

[Motörhead]

I don't like the XL engine change.I would like it before, not needed after the weapons nerf, now the only advantage a clan mech has is the XL engine, because ok the firepower is insane but you also go up t 60% in an alpha now, take it away too and there's no point in running clanners, if not the TBW and the SRC, so we see them even more.

The best mechs overall so far are the TimberWolf and the StormCrow, those 2 also have amazing hitboxes and speed for the weight/armor.

Mechs like the DWF, too slow to twist efficiently, or the MadDog, really easy to destroy ST are going to be hit more while the TimberWolf and the StromCrow will then be even more desirable.Let alone asymmetrical builds.

Some mechs concept will be ruined, the DWF can run so much firepower because it is so slow and cumbersome, If forced to wear and engine that drops power and efficiency when 1 side is destroyed, I guess many would just drop an ac5 for example e upgrade to an XL330. The summoner, which is asymmetrical and already not that good, but at least you could mount a gauss/ac20 and an ERPPC on the same side?

Anyone was saying DWF's OP, then I saw the avg. score now that it's released for c-bills, it was like 300-400 most of times, so maybe since first it was cbills or pay maybe most people driving them were mostly good?

So I can even agree, but as long as there is some customization to the engine too, if not, then no, is like "you get this and shout up, because this is all you're ever going to get".

Honestly 10vs12 would have been much better. This is the wrong way to deal with it.

PS : I say all of this being mostly and IS pilot, sometimes I like to drive a clanner, but if the change will be made as usual, I will have not much reason to take out a clanner anymore, and I will just buy weapon modules for the IS mechs. But then I want a refound on C-bills spent for clan mechs(and I think people who got them for money would deserve a refound even more), because this is a gamebreaking change and I don't want to drive something that was meant to be totally different in the beginning.

Edited by fx8320, 29 September 2014 - 10:57 AM.

[capmerc]

i understand can't do 10 vs 12 but why not make all clan vs all IS and give Is weight advantage you guys can set that up right ? The clan should be stronger and faster but IS would have had close combat (weapons swords,etc or punch and kicking clan would not use these items or tactics),the there is zellerbringe for the clan witch they really swear by,great help to IS at first then we waste that chance. Separate the clan from IS they have enough mechs and shouldn't be able to use IS ecm mechs or IS assaults mechs. right now even with nerfs 3 dire wolfs on the opposite team weighs heavy toward them winning not to mention all the other clan mechs they can have IS has to fight.Losing the IS ecm mechs changes things back into IS favor becuase clan must field less assault mechs to get ecm cover so sorry no more 3-4 dire wolfs or warhawks if they do without ecm cover then the lrm missiles will kill them real fast seen it done and have done it myself.

[zudukai]

i do not want hardwired equipment across omni-pods. i do not want hardwired jumpjets across omni-pods, slots are consumed enough with the current setup.

if this is unavoidable, please reduce the structure slot and armor slot positions within the pods.

build variation will suffer greatly!

[Solidussnake]

Well , if they are just going to nerf clan weapons over and over again. Might as well just balance everything out and make this generic robot warrior online and remove any reference to the battletech universe. Because with all this PGI nerfing and balancing you might as well give all clan mechs the ability to be completely customized just like their IS counter parts. That way PGI you can complete your homogenized version of mechwarrior online where every mech is completely the same. Just one gear swap away.

So far all I see is ruining of clan tech and making it generic counterparts to the IS versions.

[Pz_DC]

Its all ok except incresing armor - its already too strong, becouse we cant crit armor as internal structure. We need more ways for weapons being effective - like "hud damage" in mw4. Look - if mech dies too fast its not armor problem, its piloting problem. In some games 1 bullet is enoth to kill enemy or being killed, and all fine with that. So why MWO need to be different?... Give more hardcore!

P.S, I feel myself confused when red CT mech eat like 40-60 points of damage and didnt die....

P.P.S. As fo me, i think that balance is fine enoth for now so better to focus on other, more important problems. Clans must be more effective then IS so they are, and no need to change that. Even 4xCGAUSS DWS are fine, as well as those best-in-class TBR+MDD.... That says VTR pilot

Edited by MGA121285, 11 October 2014 - 02:29 AM.

[Bespoke Cheese Cake]

All these clan tech nerfs feel like a real punch in the pants

[MadLibrarian]

Solidussnake, on 09 October 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

Well , if they are just going to nerf clan weapons over and over again. Might as well just balance everything out and make this generic robot warrior online and remove any reference to the battletech universe. Because with all this PGI nerfing and balancing you might as well give all clan mechs the ability to be completely customized just like their IS counter parts. That way PGI you can complete your homogenized version of mechwarrior online where every mech is completely the same. Just one gear swap away.

So far all I see is ruining of clan tech and making it generic counterparts to the IS versions.

Seems a little short sighted. Chances are, they'll rebalance again after IS quirks. By the time we get CW, and leave the 'kappa' stage of development, they'll probably increase and decrease values a few times.

I trust the guys who are looking directly at the statistical comparisons to make good decisions, rather than some player whining they lost some firepower. Would you rather have a real pay to win system?

If these were the values that the Clan were introduced with, people wouldn't even be whining right now. Relax.........


Also, the only change I've even noticed in my clan mechs is the laser duration. It's still easy mode.

Edited by MadLibrarian, 12 October 2014 - 03:04 AM.

[Chaldon]

I'm not reading 31 pages but if somebody already mentioned that clan ghost heat needs to be increased then... I'm saying it again.