876 replies to this topic

[kosmos1214]

Barfing Gopher, on 08 November 2014 - 07:29 PM, said:

I just wish we could see what map we were going to, having the ability to modify your build for specific roles/battlefields is worthless if you have no idea where you are going (Terra Therma with a laser boat/Alpine with an Assault brawler.)

i disagree i find thats 1/2 the fun and skill if we could see all we would see are mechs optimized to thoughts maps

[Barfing Gopher]

kosmos1214, on 08 November 2014 - 07:42 PM, said:

i disagree i find thats 1/2 the fun and skill if we could see all we would see are mechs optimized to thoughts maps

You are free to disagree, but the point of having a hot swappable omni pod system is specifically for this way of fighting. Even IS pilots should be able to look out a freaking window on the drop ship or get some kind of intel on the battle ahead so they know if it's going to be a long range battle or in an extreme environment so they can plan their builds/tactics accordingly.

[Threat Doc]

Ed Steele, on 08 November 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

Which greatly limits your build options. MWO allows every IS mechs to be completely customized and upgraded with lostech, which was not possible for the large majority of IS mechs in lore circa 3050. Omni mechs were designed to be able to easily change their loadouts between battles to tailor their role for the next battle.

Which, of course, is the exact opposite of BattleTech in every single way. I still disagree with the MechLab system, and believe people should be made to ride out their IS 'Mechs and only change parts lost in battle. I still disagree with the "pod/hardpoint" system for IS 'Mechs -everyone has the same number of critical slots available to them, unless the hand and lower arm actuator's are removed, and those only for certain 'Mechs, so it then becomes a matter of tonnage and placement according to what player's want to do. Then, however, the art would get all flubbed, I think, and you'd have incongruous 'Mechs showing armament they don't have in places that don't have anything in them.

Barfing Gopher, on 08 November 2014 - 07:29 PM, said:

I just wish we could see what map we were going to, having the ability to modify your build for specific roles/battlefields is worthless if you have no idea where you are going (Terra Therma with a laser boat/Alpine with an Assault brawler.)

I would agree with this but... how would you recommend PGI change it? Perhaps a UI with better planning capabilities? They HAVE to be planning for specific world types, so that would inform everyone in a unit preparing to drop what kinds of 'Mechs they should be able to choose for the drop.

Barfing Gopher, on 08 November 2014 - 08:03 PM, said:

You are free to disagree, but the point of having a hot swappable omni pod system is specifically for this way of fighting. Even IS pilots should be able to look out a freaking window on the drop ship or get some kind of intel on the battle ahead so they know if it's going to be a long range battle or in an extreme environment so they can plan their builds/tactics accordingly.

Well, as was said, earlier, IS 'Mechs should not be able to change anything unless it's something lost in the fight, and pilot's should be free to place what they want to place where they want to place it. As for the Clans and the OmniPod system, I agree with you that these should be swappable for the environment, if we could reverse the current way of doing things and have the map, time-of-day/night, and any special environment quirks brought out based on the world being fought on. I think it would be nice for PGI to take note of gravity, world effects -weather, environment, etc-, but I doubt that's going to happen for some time to come, yet.

So, how do we get PGI to fix it and make it more like it should be?

[NocturnalBeast]

Barfing Gopher, on 08 November 2014 - 07:29 PM, said:

I just wish we could see what map we were going to, having the ability to modify your build for specific roles/battlefields is worthless if you have no idea where you are going (Terra Therma with a laser boat/Alpine with an Assault brawler.)

Honestly it makes no sense that a military force in 3049 would go into every battle with little to no intel about the environment that they will be fighting in.

[Threat Doc]

My hope is that it will change... part of the Information Warfare pillar, as I understood it from October of three years ago, was that part of the Community Warfare pillar was going to involve being able to purchase and/or get intelligence about the world a unit was going to. Like EVERYTHING else in this game, however, including with BattleMech and Role Warfare, what we've seen is an amazing shift from the original vision and goals to the perverted versions we have, now. My hope remains that PGI is working toward baby-stepping this game to where it always should have been, according to both their original rantings and ALL of the amazing source material that exists for this universe. However, I'm not holding my breath.

[NocturnalBeast]

Kay Wolf, on 09 November 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

My hope is that it will change... part of the Information Warfare pillar, as I understood it from October of three years ago, was that part of the Community Warfare pillar was going to involve being able to purchase and/or get intelligence about the world a unit was going to. Like EVERYTHING else in this game, however, including with BattleMech and Role Warfare, what we've seen is an amazing shift from the original vision and goals to the perverted versions we have, now. My hope remains that PGI is working toward baby-stepping this game to where it always should have been, according to both their original rantings and ALL of the amazing source material that exists for this universe. However, I'm not holding my breath.

True, I bought the PCGAMER mag as soon as it hit the news stand and I bought my founder's pack based on what was promised to be in the game AT LAUNCH. I do understand that things do not always go as planned and I still support PGI because I believe that they are now taking the game in the right direction (albeit a couple years late).

[Threat Doc]

My optimism and enthusiasm has dipped below the level you have represented, here, but I'm too curious and have too many friends in Armageddon Unlimited, and in this community, to just let it go. Besides, PGI did a right proper job on the combat simulator, and perhaps they will turn it around for Community Warfare, as well.

[Lily from animove]

Actually I played a lot matches with TBR today, and I think with the current setup, people using more mediums and low weight heavies because of the tonnage limit, it seems to be even stronger than before. That mech still needs balance.

Edited by Lily from animove, 09 November 2014 - 03:03 PM.

[Agatheis]

Ed Steele, on 08 November 2014 - 11:28 PM, said:

Honestly it makes no sense that a military force in 3049 would go into every battle with little to no intel about the environment that they will be fighting in.

I feel you may be missing the point.

In true Battletech lore, the Inner Sphere simply doesn't have the technical ability to swap weapons in and out of mechs. Changing an engine is almost impossible. It can be done, but requires extensive redesign work and a proper engineering process with modelling, simulation and fabrication in order to make everything fit.

I think that a good analogy would be for someone to say that they want to put a Ferrari door on their Ford pickup. Sure, a Ferrari door is better than the normal Ford door, with heating glass, ports for air con, a tinted window and a better paint job... But it won't fit in the same space. You'd have to disassemble the door, modify its shape, add different connectors, replace the glass and everything. Sure, a door is a door, but the engineering required to make it fit is so extensive that it's not worth doing. Of course, if your Ford Pickup has lost a door and the the Ferrari door is all that you have in your garage, you can probably tack-weld it on and it will stop you falling out of the vehicle, but you'd have to weld it on closed and it's unlikely to last very long or function properly.

This is partly why the Clans invented the Omnipods. Notice how the Summoner arms aren't the same? That's because they're different styles of pod. One of them is the same type of pod as used on the Timber Wolf, for example. Sacrificing form over functionality has allowed the Clans to make the system work.

However, customising mechs is one of the oldest elements of Mechwarrior games, and even if it doesn't sit too well with the lore, it's one of the most enjoyable parts. Clan mechs in the Battletech universe were always supposed to be better than Inner Sphere mechs one-on-one and have higher BVs (battle values, like golf handicaps) in order to balance forces. Typically the balance would be 8 IS mechs to 5 Clan mechs.

A.

[Uthael]

[rantstart]
About Invasion:
Clans attacking IS results in victory for IS in over 50% of cases, but it's a fair fight with defense turrets and terrain advantage.
In case the clans just barge in and rush, IS mechs and defense turrets combined don't have enough firepower to shoot all the Clans down. It becomes an insta-win for them with few players scoring over 65 in match score at the end of the game.
IS attacking IS have little chance for winning offense.
IS attacking Clans turns into clans spawn-killing the IS mechs. Wtb a scarecrow and mount it to IS dropships.

I've returned from Invasion mode after finishing my 2nd rank challenge and let me tell this: NOT. FUN. Even with all the quirk changes, it just doesn't work. Playing old gamemodes again and the game seems much more balanced. Why? Because Clan and IS mechs can appear on both sides. Still, matchmaking doesn't seem to care if the mech deployed is IS or Clan or if it puts 3 ECMs in one team and none in the other.
[/rantend]

Edit: I've noticed my own sig after posting so I'm adding this (I really hope this topic doesn't close until nobody has anything to rant about):

Quote

(...) Increase in IS and Clan mech armor and internal structure if time to death decreases too much. (...)
(...) “Yes your IS mech’s are weaker, but if you put lots of them together you might win” (...)
Please let us know what you think

I say:
Numbers at the top of the screen affect mentality of a team and it's passive/aggressive behavior. The more advantage in kills a team has, the bigger the chances of it starting to act reckless. This leads to numbers evening out in some matches. Match duration doesn't have to do too much with armor.
“Yes our IS mech’s are weaker. We also can't put lots of them together and so we lose”.

Edited by Uthael, 16 December 2014 - 09:00 AM.

[Threat Doc]

Uthael, on 16 December 2014 - 08:52 AM, said:

About Invasion:
Clans attacking IS results in victory for IS in over 50% of cases

What kind of crack are you smoking... puff-puff-pass buddy. The Clans win more than 60% of the time in any map. Unless the Inner Sphere players have superior communication and tactics, a force of low-brow Clan players can wipe IS off the map, regardless of attack, defense, or game mode.

Quote

“Yes our IS mech’s are weaker. We also can't put lots of them together and so we lose”.

I repeat, unless you're running a highly coordinated team, the IS loses to Clan a LOT. Adding the Clans before CW was such a huge mistake.

[Kael Posavatz]

I have been charting my wins and losses.

So far from what I have seen, the size of the groups involved is a better predictor of outcome than tech. Twelve pickup players have very little chance against a 12-man, just for example. It holds true if the twelve-person side is composed of Clan Warriors, and it holds true if the 12-man is from a IS-aligned unit.

Comms are a force-multiplier, and I know some people are using the larger multi-unit TS servers such as ComStar and NGNG to synch-drop together. However, a unit it is a better force multiplier than just comms. This comes from pre-established trust and familiarity that comes from playing with the same people repeatedly.

So far I have only seen one match where spawn-camping was decisive. Sorry, but a defensive push onto an attacker's drop zones when they have two active warriors with a half-dozen mechs between them is not decisive, it is post-battle clean-up. In that one instance where a side was able to make spawn-camping decisive an Inner Sphere unit was able to set up overwatch covering an outer spawn location and bartered one wave and about six minutes for a 3:2 advantage in active warriors on the field of battle.

Edited by Kael 17, 16 December 2014 - 10:48 AM.

[Zfailboat]

the last tournament before CW had clan at 62 % and IS at 38% win loss ratio.

Prior to quirks it was 73 % - 27%.

no matter what way you look at it, clan still has range advantage, survivability advantage dps advantage, and generally a speed advantage (except lights)

I am sure the players base has said this hundreds of times. IS don't care that clan has an advantage when it was going to be 10 vs 12. but this is a pvp game. if you make one side overpowered. you get 1 of 2 things.
1. the majority of players start to pick the "winning team".
2. ppl quit the game

comms etc etc don't mean anything both side have equal chance of having a team using them vs the other. the only difference is overall balance - and the game has still not reached that for the general public.

If PGI want balance they need to do a test where they remove the top 250 players by elo level from both faction sides of the game and then run the data on the rest.

Now it may well be that PGI do not actually want balance. After all, 1 way to make the next set of IS purchasable mechs popular will be to make them the balance. then get everyone to buy them - and then after the cash stops - rebalance the rest of IS again.

Ultimately PGI knows the situation, PGI is a business and don't care about battletech, lore or anything else. just like almost every other human they are ruled by what they think will be the best for them financially as a business.

[kosmos1214]

Zfailboat, on 16 December 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

the last tournament before CW had clan at 62 % and IS at 38% win loss ratio.

Prior to quirks it was 73 % - 27%.

no matter what way you look at it, clan still has range advantage, survivability advantage dps advantage, and generally a speed advantage (except lights)

I am sure the players base has said this hundreds of times. IS don't care that clan has an advantage when it was going to be 10 vs 12. but this is a pvp game. if you make one side overpowered. you get 1 of 2 things.
1. the majority of players start to pick the "winning team".
2. ppl quit the game

comms etc etc don't mean anything both side have equal chance of having a team using them vs the other. the only difference is overall balance - and the game has still not reached that for the general public.

If PGI want balance they need to do a test where they remove the top 250 players by elo level from both faction sides of the game and then run the data on the rest.

Now it may well be that PGI do not actually want balance. After all, 1 way to make the next set of IS purchasable mechs popular will be to make them the balance. then get everyone to buy them - and then after the cash stops - rebalance the rest of IS again.

Ultimately PGI knows the situation, PGI is a business and don't care about battletech, lore or anything else. just like almost every other human they are ruled by what they think will be the best for them financially as a business.

im going to call you out for the is v clan numbers becouse you like every one else keeps forgetting that while the clans where wining 62% to 38% the clan players on average had a 130 more elo then the IS players and a large number of IS players where runing clan mechs because they where fun and new iv seen the average competency of IS players go up since cw started witch has to do with the IS players retuning to there IS mechs

[Threat Doc]

Is it really so impossible to use proper English to couch your arguments? Perhaps the use of capital letters at the beginning of a sentence, a period at the end, perhaps not using run-ons? You just look so very legitimate in your counter-arguments when you fail to use the courtesies of the English language; yes, I have decided I pay so much more attention when it's difficult, if not impossible, for me to glean when the expression of one thought ends and another begins.

Now, to address the continued purpose of this discussion, I think we can all agree the Clans remain over-powered, regardless of the percentages. The Clans are supposed to have ridiculously powerful 'Mechs, however, though the goals of the Clans are to fight with honor, to make any combat a serious challenge, and their structure disallows for contests of war exceeding 12 vs 10 'Mechs for the Inner Sphere and Clans, respectively. Were Clan 'Mechs as powerful as in the tabletop game, it would be an extended Star (6 OmniMechs) vs. two Lances (Inner Sphere 'Mechs), and the Clans would STILL have an extraordinary possibility of winning. However, because there is no regulation of pilots -none of these Freebirths in this community could hold a candle to a real-world Clan MechWarrior for honor or prowess- and the 'Mechs are not as powerful as their tabletop counterparts, 12 vs 10 seems like the best mixture of 'Mechs.

[MWHawke]

So, Clan player pay MORE for their Mechs, either via C-Bills or MC or the Packages, and we pay more for our weapons and you say that they are supposed to be the same level as IS Mechs and weapons??!?

Uhh.. what kind of logic are you all using??!?

[Threat Doc]

MWHawke, on 18 December 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

So, Clan player pay MORE for their Mechs, either via C-Bills or MC or the Packages, and we pay more for our weapons and you say that they are supposed to be the same level as IS Mechs and weapons??!?

Not in the least; I'm not saying anything of the sort. However, the Clan 'Mechs are overpowered in this game; they have the range, heat dissipation, and weight bonuses on their side. Lighter weapons, Double Heat Sinks that take only two slots each rather than three, and better range means they can either take the same number of weapons as IS do, still out-classing IS, and then pack on the armor and speed, or they can pack on the weapons and armor and just out-platform IS 'Mechs all day long. Yeah, the Clan Lights might be slower than Inner Sphere Lights, but they carry the weapons a Heavy IS 'Mech would.

With Ferro-Fibrous Armor and Endo-Steel Internal Structure requiring only 7 critical slots each, they can take both and pack on even more. I don't know the exact exchange factor in MWO, but Ferro-Fibrous Armor provides 1.2 times normal (19.2 points) armor points, when Inner Sphere only provides 1.12 times normal (17.92 points) per ton of armor (normally at 16 points per ton). If those formula's hold true with PGI having doubled armor (32 points per ton), then you're talking 38.4 for Clan FF and 35.84 for IS FF. If you put 10 tons of Ferro-Fibrous on an Inner Sphere 'Mech, that gives you 358 points, while the same number of armor points would cost a Clan 'Mech only 9 tons (345 points) since I'm unsure a 'Mech can even go up to 358 points max. That's an extra ton the Clan player can use to fit an additional Heat Sink, or an additional Medium Laser, etc.

Clan 'Mechs, by the very design rules of this game, even just working on critical internals, will always outstrip Inner Sphere 'Mechs.

[Kain Demos]

I can't believe that there are STILL IS people claiming the clans are OP even after all these nerfs and the "god-mode" like quirks some of their 'mechs got.

I guess they won't be happy until we're all in Mackies.

[Threat Doc]

Kain Thul, on 18 December 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

I can't believe that there are STILL IS people claiming the clans are OP even after all these nerfs and the "god-mode" like quirks some of their 'mechs got.

I guess they won't be happy until we're all in Mackies.

That's unfair, and not what I said at all. I don't expect the Clans to be nerf'd into better looking IS 'Mechs and, in fact, unless PGI bends the rules even further, they really can't be. However, unless you're ignoring all of the benefits that go into proper OmniMech design, or you're just being obtuse, or you simply don't know how to design a 'Mech properly at all, OmniMech's will always be more powerful than IS 'Mechs. Complain about it all you want, but unless PGI puts together a system where 'Mechs can truly be matched off properly (ahem BV), they're going to either have to separate Clan play from IS play altogether, or they're going to have to give IS folks ways to beat Clan 'Mechs. Otherwise, the ENTIRE POPULATION of MWO is going to do one of two things: leave or go Clan. Period. If you can't see that, then look up the word obtuse in the dictionary.

[Kain Demos]

I would welcome BV or 10 v 12 but I still don't understand how you can think that omnis are so flat out better. Many of them that don't have both ES/FF, or have FF instead of ES, or have oversized engines (that they're stuck with, unlike IS 'mechs) that limit pod space are actually not as good as many of their IS competitors.

I don't buy the "sky is falling" cry either--Davion currently has a massive showing in CW. 2 of the 3 least populated factions are clan factions of which there are only 4 to begin with.

Edited by Kain Thul, 18 December 2014 - 04:47 PM.