876 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

Zfailboat, on 16 December 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

no matter what way you look at it, clan still has range advantage, survivability advantage dps advantage, and generally a speed advantage (except lights)

range? only really at the lasers is this viable and some mechs quirks even affect range.
survivability? Not true only counts for Xl equipped mechs, a standard engine Mehc on the IS still can live longer
dps advantage? except dakkawolf, he IS can sustain better dps by having cooler weapons.
Speed advantage also includes mediums. Heavy clanners are faster, but most assaults are the same except the gargoyle, which is a bad TBR anyways.

So why is it that those people saying clans are stronger are always those with the wrong facts?
So when you aren't even able to see the strenght of the IS emchs, how will you even be abel to build a proper one, yet even pilot it to success?
If you pilot as you gather facts, no wonder clans beat you, but other IS pilots would do the same.

Edited by Lily from animove, 19 December 2014 - 06:11 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

When looking at balance between clan and IS weapons, for the IS weapons you need to look at their stats on the best quirked mechs for that weapon, because unless you are a ****** thats the platform you use for that weapon - want an ERPPC mech? if you're not using the Thunderbolt 9S you are a complete idiot and your opinion on balance shouldn't be accounted for, unless you are also asking for nerfs to those above mentioned quirks. Every time i see an IS pilot driving a firebrand with PPCs i cry a little. a 5 year old can see the TDR is better by an absurd amount for the same role.

Clans are judged on the TBR and SCR. IS should be judged on their most heavily quirked mechs.

And personally, i think balance between TBR and SCR vs the cream of IS is good right now. Some of the weaker IS mechs need further help, and the weak clan chassis need a LOT of help.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 19 December 2014 - 06:51 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Widowmaker1981, on 19 December 2014 - 06:19 AM, said:

When looking at balance between clan and IS weapons, for the IS weapons you need to look at their stats on the best quirked mechs for that weapon, because unless you are a ****** thats the platform you use for that weapon - want an ERPPC mech? if you're not using the Thunderbolt 9S you are a complete idiot and your opinion on balance shouldn't be accounted for, unless you are also asking for nerfs to those above mentioned quirks.

Yep - thats me - I'm a idiot.

Run ER-PPC on Mechs where i think that a ER-PPC would work good.
Have reconfigured a Battlemaster 1D to work with large laser - really bad bad experience - because the torso has a narrowed field of fire - moved back to my old build - including the usage of a ERPPC much better.

And you know what is much more important - it was not necessary to rebuild any of my mechs after the quirking. (with exception of the mentioned Battlemaster - and this was a bad idea)

[Widowmaker1981]

Karl Streiger, on 19 December 2014 - 06:24 AM, said:

Yep - thats me - I'm a idiot.

Run ER-PPC on Mechs where i think that a ER-PPC would work good.
Have reconfigured a Battlemaster 1D to work with large laser - really bad bad experience - because the torso has a narrowed field of fire - moved back to my old build - including the usage of a ERPPC much better.

And you know what is much more important - it was not necessary to rebuild any of my mechs after the quirking. (with exception of the mentioned Battlemaster - and this was a bad idea)

Its an obvious fact that a TDR-9S is flat out better than the Battlemaster 1D built around ERPPCs. So if you're using an obviously, mathematically inferior mech which weighs 20 tons MORE.. well yes. Idiotic (in CW at least)

edit: Obviously, on the battlemaster you might have 1 ERPPC and some autocannons or something. The TDR cant run autocannons though so that isnt a valid comparison... still though... when you start having 50% bonuses to heat generation/range/cooldown etc it becomes obvious that those are the mechs you should be using.

edit again: actually, thinking about it some more, Thuds seem the obvious outliers when it comes to crazy quirks - all the other mechs that got enourmous 40-50% quirks had giant glaring problems to go with them - either very light mechs limited to one weapon on trying to use ACs (BJ-1DC, Cicada 3L) or have all of their firepower in one easy to shoot off arm (DRG-1N, Wolverine 6K/6R). Thuds are pretty solid mechs though, decent numbers of hardpoints, reasonable hitboxes, high torso mounted weapons. They were worse than Jagers or Catapults in the 65 ton bracket and did deserve better quirks than those mechs, but not to this extreme imo.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 19 December 2014 - 07:14 AM.

[ztac]

Firstly you do realise that certain IS mech's are now better than clan mech's if fitted out in a certain way? You never did address the LRM imbalance either (IS being more effective) and that LRM are still very stupidly overpowered considering how they are used or was this intentional to allow access to the game for people that really do not understand how to aim and fire?

I'm surprised anyone still buys clan packages now as well because of this.

I will add this , I have no idea what the clans thing is , as for range it seems that IS has the edge with ERPPC as I can get 1094 mtrs. from an IS mech but a clan will only reach out to maybe 891mtrs.

Edited by ztac, 28 December 2014 - 12:23 AM.

[Threat Doc]

Do you know why LRMs are overpowered to you?

1) the warning at the top of your screen,

2) the shake caused by individual missiles, and

3) the fact you can't shoot directly back, most of the time, at your target.

In fact, the use of LRMs takes much more skill than point-and-click, and the only thing you laser and ballistic guys are at a disadvantage for is that you have to have line-of-sight to your target to hit them. I'm sure, if you could lob a Gauss Rifle round into the air and have it hit a target, you would do just fine. The simple truth about missiles is this:

1) Between 25 - 30% of damage from a missile rack is done to a target 'Mech, depending on range, terrain, and movement factors. That means an LRM-20 fired at you does between 5 and 7 points of damage per rack fired, while an LRM-5 has between two and three missiles hit at any given time,

2) Each missile does a single point of damage, and

3) Though a small group of missiles may hit the same location, each small rack fired hits a different location each time.

Now, when you face off with a laser or ballistic, or both, 'Mech, the damage done is done directly, all of it to a single location -except in the case of lasers, which may be spread among multiple locations and has to be held on target through the duration of the beam in order to get all of the damage from the beam done- AND, if someone's running something they shouldn't be running, they will fire anywhere on the battlefield and vape your ass with that/those weapons. So, really, LRMs are not a real problem on the battlefield, it's piss-poor piloting by defying a suppression weapon rather than finding cover, shutting down temporarily, etc., to avoid those missiles. What's more, they are easily defeated by ECM, by the Radar Deprivation module, and just by good piloting. Take cover, force me to run out of my missiles, and then come out swinging; I'll be an easier target. Or, would you prefer to continue the display of just how silly you are in this thread?

LRMs are a suppression weapon. If I use them right, you will seek cover, perhaps shut down, disappear by getting into an ECM bubble or by using your Radar Dep module, and that will allow my people to get into better positions, perhaps work on you while you're pinned down, etc. However, if you come out from hiding, I'm going to bomb you silly and help my team mates get the kill. Now, if you look at LRMs as the skill-requiring counterpart to your direct-fire lasers and ballistics and, ooohhh, better yet, stop crying about LRMs and start hitting the R key and staying on target so your own LRM boats can help you, I think you'll have a much easier time in game. Now, if the little explosions from single-point missiles bother you so much, perhaps another game might be in order for you.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Dream Warhawk Quirks...any of the following, or any combo of them

All WHK LT: +20% Heat Dissipation

Prime CT: CERPPC +15% Velocity
-10% CERPPC Cooldown

Prime LA/RA: -5% Energy Heat generation(-10% total)

[GIGALO]

think it was a good plan with poor execution you made t-bolts into 65ton assualt mech's

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

GIGALO, on 04 January 2015 - 10:35 PM, said:

think it was a good plan with poor execution you made t-bolts into 65ton assualt mech's

Please forgive me (and the rest of the Inner Sphere) if we all laugh a little when a Clanner gripes about one long range inner spere 'mech chassis being effective.

Now that I've stopped laughing, I would be very surprised if it doesn't get hit with the nerf hammer in the next quirk pass. The Thunderbolt was not a terrible 'mech before the quirks, but it was very rarely used. There was just no good reason to run one, since whatever it could do, another 65-tonner could do better. It probably didn't need all of the huge buff it got to make it viable, but the IS needed something to be able to counter the Clan long range direct fire.

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 04 January 2015 - 11:19 PM.

[Mystere]

LordKnightFandragon, on 04 January 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

Dream Warhawk Quirks...any of the following, or any combo of them

All WHK LT: +20% Heat Dissipation

Prime CT: CERPPC +15% Velocity
-10% CERPPC Cooldown

Prime LA/RA: -5% Energy Heat generation(-10% total)

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 04 January 2015 - 11:18 PM, said:

Please forgive me (and the rest of the Inner Sphere) if we all laugh a little when a Clanner gripes about one long range inner spere 'mech chassis being effective.

Now that I've stopped laughing, I would be very surprised if it doesn't get hit with the nerf hammer in the next quirk pass. The Thunderbolt was not a terrible 'mech before the quirks, but it was very rarely used. There was just no good reason to run one, since whatever it could do, another 65-tonner could do better. It probably didn't need all of the huge buff it got to make it viable, but the IS needed something to be able to counter the Clan long range direct fire.

I am so tired of these never ending nerfs. So, one way to possibly quell the obviously growing discontent is to also give one or two Clan Chassis similar ERPPC quirks given to Awesomes and Thunderbolts. I say give the Summoner and Masakari the same treatment. I have seen very few Masakaris and absolutely no Summoners so far in CW. ERPPC quirks should help players in deciding to bring more of them.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Mystere, on 04 January 2015 - 11:29 PM, said:

I am so tired of these never ending nerfs. So, one way to possibly quell the obviously growing discontent is to also give one or two Clan Chassis similar ERPPC quirks given to Awesomes and Thunderbolts. I say give the Summoner and Masakari the same treatment. I have seen very few Masakaris and absolutely no Summoners so far in CW. ERPPC quirks should help players in deciding to bring more of them.

I wholeheartedly agree that the Summoner needs some love. While there are a few fun builds, there aren't any great configs (except maybe the Gauss-ERPPC poptart, in the right hands), and certainly not any that would justify bringing it over an ECM-equipped Hellbringer (5 tons less) or pretty much any Maddog or Stormcrow (10-15 tons less).

The Warhawk, on the other hand, pretty much has only two drawbacks ... low mounted weapons and it's 85 tons (lighter armor than a Dire Wolf, and heavier tonnage than a Timber Wolf). Given equal pilot skill and experience in the chassis, I'd bet on a WHK against any IS 85-tonner every time.

[Mystere]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 05 January 2015 - 02:53 AM, said:

I wholeheartedly agree that the Summoner needs some love. While there are a few fun builds, there aren't any great configs (except maybe the Gauss-ERPPC poptart, in the right hands), and certainly not any that would justify bringing it over an ECM-equipped Hellbringer (5 tons less) or pretty much any Maddog or Stormcrow (10-15 tons less).

The Warhawk, on the other hand, pretty much has only two drawbacks ... low mounted weapons and it's 85 tons (lighter armor than a Dire Wolf, and heavier tonnage than a Timber Wolf). Given equal pilot skill and experience in the chassis, I'd bet on a WHK against any IS 85-tonner every time.

The problem is I am seeing very few Warhawks out there. Heck, for most of my CW matches, the only Warhawk around was mine.

[Threat Doc]

Who would have thought the Warhawk's usefulness would be so very different from standard PUG matches. I see Warhawk's EVERYWHERE when PUGging.

[Lily from animove]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 04 January 2015 - 11:18 PM, said:

Please forgive me (and the rest of the Inner Sphere) if we all laugh a little when a Clanner gripes about one long range inner spere 'mech chassis being effective.

Now that I've stopped laughing, I would be very surprised if it doesn't get hit with the nerf hammer in the next quirk pass. The Thunderbolt was not a terrible 'mech before the quirks, but it was very rarely used. There was just no good reason to run one, since whatever it could do, another 65-tonner could do better. It probably didn't need all of the huge buff it got to make it viable, but the IS needed something to be able to counter the Clan long range direct fire.

So before it was terrible, now its nearly omnipresent, wouldn't that mena somewhere inbetween those is the right amount of quirks to make it not bad but not too good? a point of "balance"?

[LordKnightFandragon]

Mystere, on 04 January 2015 - 11:29 PM, said:

I am so tired of these never ending nerfs. So, one way to possibly quell the obviously growing discontent is to also give one or two Clan Chassis similar ERPPC quirks given to Awesomes and Thunderbolts. I say give the Summoner and Masakari the same treatment. I have seen very few Masakaris and absolutely no Summoners so far in CW. ERPPC quirks should help players in deciding to bring more of them.

The damn ERPPC is atrociously bad. Even on a Warhawk, its just bad. Its hot, slow to fire, kinda slow to travel, 10 damage, it just isnt worth it to carry.

[Pz_DC]

Hello. Im only-IS player and i have to say - leave clans as it is becouse in normal modes there are good balance. Fix CW maps - clans are overpowered in CW rules too much, just change CW rules and it will be all perfect.

P.S. asIS pilot i hve no problems with clan mechs andready to fac any ofthem 1-1at standart maps....

[Wintersdark]

Mystere, on 05 January 2015 - 06:01 AM, said:

The problem is I am seeing very few Warhawks out there. Heck, for most of my CW matches, the only Warhawk around was mine.

This, because a Warhawk is a tier 2 Mech at best. It's not terrible, but it's not particularly great either.

Well, not that precisely, but rather what that leads to: take a Clan assault, and you've got to make up that tonnage. This means you're taking G a Clan light or non-stormcrow medium... A mediocre to terrible mech. The Warhawk isn't good enough to warrant 100 tons and two Mech slots (+mist lynx)

In fact, most even remotely competitive groups practically bar all Clan assaults. The Direwolf while effective is way too slow, the Warhawk just not that spectacular and carries too high an opportunity cost for what you get, and the Gargoyle is ton for ton probably the worst clan Mech.

Poor Clan assaults

[LordKnightFandragon]

Wintersdark, on 05 January 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

This, because a Warhawk is a tier 2 Mech at best. It's not terrible, but it's not particularly great either.

Well, not that precisely, but rather what that leads to: take a Clan assault, and you've got to make up that tonnage. This means you're taking G a Clan light or non-stormcrow medium... A mediocre to terrible mech. The Warhawk isn't good enough to warrant 100 tons and two Mech slots (+mist lynx)

In fact, most even remotely competitive groups practically bar all Clan assaults. The Direwolf while effective is way too slow, the Warhawk just not that spectacular and carries too high an opportunity cost for what you get, and the Gargoyle is ton for ton probably the worst clan Mech.

Poor Clan assaults

If there is anything wrong with the WHK it is because the CERPPC SUCKS.....only other weapons it can boat are the LPL. Trying to make it a short range brawler will not ever work particularly well. The thing is very soft on return fire due to its HUGE torsos, so any kind of extended face time with the enemy will only result in it's death. So even LPL boating kinda works against it....

Warhawk kinda need 15/15 CERPPC.....that way it can sit at a bit of range, quickly tap off it's what should be 60 dmg, dive into cover to cool off and get out of the line of fire. ofc, not exactly how I imagined a Warhawk playing out in a real Mech battle....but I guess thats its role in this game. I was trying to elite my Prime today, played 8 games, made maybe 600xp...battles didnt go for ****, 2w in 6l...no kills in any game, despite me absolutely unloading into a number mechs CTs....the damn CERPPC is such **** that you cant deal enough damage before your to damn hot to keep firing.....

1st instance, I met a King Crab who kept shutting down in front of me, I put like 6 into his CT, shutdown, he backed up.....I turn on, put another 6 into his CT, he shuts down, I put a couple more in...he shuts down again, I put more into him and I shut down, someone else takes the kill.

2nd: Battlemaster, even with his stripped CT, I put atleast 4 or 5 PPC into his CT, he runs off...

3rd: Jagermech, throughout the course of the battle I must have put 20-30 shots into his CT and in the end, I had him red CT but he never did die.

Had a number of other mechs I got real busted up in the CT, but could never finish them off due to the damn damage/heat ratio of the CERPPC....in every one of those instances im sure had I been firing a 15/15 with true 27DHS, I would have gotten all those kills and not taken a quarter of the damage I did......



Ultimately, I really hope the WHK gets a nice fat boost to it's heat dissipation and some very good CERPPC quirks, though id prefer if the thing got a 15PPFLD perk given to it.....

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 05 January 2015 - 05:49 PM.

[SaltBeef]

Some of the Clan mechs still need a quirking preferably in the durability or cooling department vs firepower or hardpoints.

Mist lynx anyone? Bueller....Beuller. The wave 2 mechs need love bad minus the Hellbringer and Mad dog... the others are just underperformers.

Edited by SaltBeef, 06 January 2015 - 02:40 AM.

[Lily from animove]

clans are still superunbalanced, they have some emi op mechs, and others just plain bad.

clan lights generally sufer from the hot CERML, which are vey heat inefficient. So they have to go with missiles, if they can or ERPPC's.

Nova has the dragon problems of geometry

Ice ferret, is basically suffering the light mech issue as well.

My opinion is still opening up the ES/FF and unlocking JJ's/DHS for all clanmechs, it does not make any clanmechs OP, because those being OP do already have these upgrades, and those who don't would just slightly be less bad as now. Still not good or truly balanced, but at leats not as horrible as they are.

warhawk has a load of fixed DHS, which means any attemop to make it a ballistic boat is a huge waste of tonnage because the DHS bound in the mech are pointless. Yet they consume not only vital tonnage, they also consume critical space.