876 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 January 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

So if Clans can never get standard shot on their LBX, can they simply get a much tighter CoF on the shot period?

That would require a shorter burst time, since as far as I can tell, the shots will all hit the same spot if you don't move the reticule. That would be good though, do it to the current Clan AC's, now. Make them more than a placeholder.

I see what you mean about LBX though too, but they nerfed or bugged Clan LB-20X 2-3 months ago. I bugged it, but nothing ever got fixed. Early on I was using a Laser+LB-20X config and once I stripped the armor off an enemy mech the LB-20X made anything with an orange internal explode 80 percent of the time and now it's no different than any AC and just applies standard internal damage, which is not Canon and just makes the LB-20X a normal AC, but one that does low armor damage instead of high armor damage. A heavy nerf.

Edited by Lightfoot, 27 January 2015 - 08:02 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Lightfoot, on 27 January 2015 - 07:55 PM, said:

That would require a shorter burst time, since as far as I can tell, the shots will all hit the same spot if you don't move the reticule. That would be good though, do it to the current Clan AC's, now. Make them more than a placeholder.

I see what you mean about LBX though too, but they nerfed or bugged Clan LB-20X 2-3 months ago. I bugged it, but nothing ever got fixed. Early on I was using a Laser+LB-20X config and once I stripped the armor off an enemy mech the LB-20X made anything with an orange internal explode 80 percent of the time and now it's no different than any AC and just applies standard internal damage, which is not Canon and just makes the LB-20X a normal AC, but one that does low armor damage instead of high armor damage. A heavy nerf.

Oh, so the LBX20 isnt working correctly? THAT would make sense...how I unload 67dmg into a Protector with orange armor and it doesnt even strip....how I did that TWICE to a Battlemaster, once with his nice orange stripped CT and I die.....

[Karl Streiger]

is there anything in the CT that is worth to crit?
Also have the feeling that HSR has problems when calculating multiple impacts at the same time.
(to make it clear - firing LBX and SRMs in one volley - may cause same problems as hitting 3 targets with the same SRM volley)

[LordKnightFandragon]

Karl Streiger, on 27 January 2015 - 11:29 PM, said:

is there anything in the CT that is worth to crit?
Also have the feeling that HSR has problems when calculating multiple impacts at the same time.
(to make it clear - firing LBX and SRMs in one volley - may cause same problems as hitting 3 targets with the same SRM volley)

Whats worth it to crit in the CT? idk, maybe nothing....

BUt if you reduce the Outer armor to 0, and the internal armor to 0 you blow up the engine, blowing up the engine kills the mech........idk what else there is to do....

Typically I fire in bursts in anyway, LBX, Lasers, SRM separate.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 27 January 2015 - 11:33 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 January 2015 - 11:32 PM, said:

Whats worth it to crit in the CT? idk, maybe nothing....

BUt if you reduce the Outer armor to 0, and the internal armor to 0 you blow up the engine, blowing up the engine kills the mech........idk what else there is to do....

Typically I fire in bursts in anyway, LBX, Lasers, SRM separate.

A Orion has 46 internals - can't remember the value for orange armor- but maybe 10-11 enough to take the Alpha of your "Warhawk" + "HSR - Detection" you got a picture (maybe some SRMs didn't register - or the HSR thinks you may have hit your lasers square on the torso.... ....

go for the side torso next time

Edited by Karl Streiger, 27 January 2015 - 11:36 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Karl Streiger, on 27 January 2015 - 11:36 PM, said:

A Orion has 46 internals - can't remember the value for orange armor- but maybe 10-11 enough to take the Alpha of your "Warhawk" + "HSR - Detection" you got a picture (maybe some SRMs didn't register - or the HSR thinks you may have hit your lasers square on the torso.... ....

go for the side torso next time

Yeah, the biggest killer of a shooter game for me.....hit detect that sucks. Its annoying enough getting killed, but dying cuz you unloaded into a guy who shoulda been dead but isnt? no, thats just stupid ****.

There seems to be no hit reg issues in Training grounds, why cant we get TG hit reg? It works so well........

[Karl Streiger]

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 January 2015 - 11:39 PM, said:

There seems to be no hit reg issues in Training grounds, why cant we get TG hit reg? It works so well........

Cause Training Grounds is client hit detection - reason you still have the old convergence rule and other stuff in the TG you have not in the "real" game - making the shooting simpler in the real game - but add "random rolls"

I think that random cause of HSR is more killing than having a cone of fire and missing a target because of that cone.

(Shooting a Stalker - 3 times with AC 20 in quick succession, following him around a corner and "death screen" - that says 0 damage) Maybe i ran in my own projectiles? Can neither say what hit me - nor was it fun to see the "caused" damage


OK that is nothing special with clan balance... maybe clan weapons could work better because DoT Weapons usually deal damage were a pin point weapon is hit or not.
(Reason most people have a 50% better hit accuracy with the Ultra 20 over the IS AC 20)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 27 January 2015 - 11:57 PM.

[Lily from animove]

Karl Streiger, on 27 January 2015 - 11:49 PM, said:

Cause Training Grounds is client hit detection - reason you still have the old convergence rule and other stuff in the TG you have not in the "real" game - making the shooting simpler in the real game - but add "random rolls"

I think that random cause of HSR is more killing than having a cone of fire and missing a target because of that cone.

(Shooting a Stalker - 3 times with AC 20 in quick succession, following him around a corner and "death screen" - that says 0 damage) Maybe i ran in my own projectiles? Can neither say what hit me - nor was it fun to see the "caused" damage


OK that is nothing special with clan balance... maybe clan weapons could work better because DoT Weapons usually deal damage were a pin point weapon is hit or not.
(Reason most people have a 50% better hit accuracy with the Ultra 20 over the IS AC 20)

it is weird, but it looks like making clan AC's pinpint one bulltes and reducing their laser duration, would also reduce the amount of hits needed to calculate and therefoe kinad may help hitreg to work better. At least at the part where the amount of simultaneous fire starts causing hitreg issues.

[That Dawg]

its maddening, granted, but I take the good with the bad....

I have lived beyond my means and killed my attacker a few times, and have been killed my smaller, more damaged, weaker mechs too often as well....m'eh

I DO Like standing behind the mythical ground object of denial (MGOD, or M'god) and watching LRM's and lasers stream in, creating all hell breaking loose and I take no or really minimal damage- a couple of trees in Veridian, and a couple of things on Tourmaline.
Or AMS flying up thru mountains and bridges trying to stop LRM's

[LordKnightFandragon]

Lily from animove, on 28 January 2015 - 05:12 AM, said:

it is weird, but it looks like making clan AC's pinpint one bulltes and reducing their laser duration, would also reduce the amount of hits needed to calculate and therefoe kinad may help hitreg to work better. At least at the part where the amount of simultaneous fire starts causing hitreg issues.

Exactly. Yet another reason they should also reduce the amount we can realistically fire through a much lower heat scale, firing 1 or 2 guns instead of 30......then the game only has to calculate maybe 20 weapon shots instead of 80....every second or so.....

Hit reg seems to work better, even In PLanetside 2, when you fire one round. ITs why a Sniper Rifle in Planetside2? You never have hit reg issues there. Its wiht LMGs, ARs and other automatic weapons.

If MWO was made in such a manner that we could only fire 1 or 2 guns, and had PP everything, then it would be 1 calculation per gun, not 10 or 13 over hte course of several seconds every few seconds.

[Nori Silverrage]

Are they ever going to make the clan ballistics not suck? The only one I've tried that is any good is Gauss. Dual UAC5 feels and looks like it should be doing damage, but burn through all your ammo in a game and you get so little damage and you generally can't kill anything. LBX faces the same problems as the IS one. Basically you need more than one and some nice backup weapons to make them any good. That basically means it'll only be useful on larger mechs.

I don't see why the Clan AC weapons can't act similar to the IS ones. Worst case make em fire twice instead of four time and time those shots a lot closer together. The UACs are a bit more touchy of course as being able to unload a doubleshot AC20 would be kind of crazy.

Edited by Nori Silverrage, 28 January 2015 - 02:00 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Nori Silverrage, on 28 January 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

Are they ever going to make the clan ballistics not suck? The only one I've tried that is any good is Gauss. Dual UAC5 feels and looks like it should be doing damage, but burn through all your ammo in a game and you get so little damage and you generally can't kill anything. LBX faces the same problems as the IS one. Basically you need more than one and some nice backup weapons to make them any good. That basically means it'll only be useful on larger mechs.

I don't see why the Clan AC weapons can't act similar to the IS ones. Worst case make em fire twice instead of four time and time those shots a lot closer together. The UACs are a bit more touchy of course as being able to unload a doubleshot AC20 would be kind of crazy.

Nope, CAC need to vanish into the never ever sphere

CUAC need to fire in 2 shots, so for a 20, 10/10. Allow us to double rate only once and they get a 10% chance to jam up, which increases the Cooldown of the weapon by 2s over the normal CD.

So basically, if we were to use a CUAC20 in my mind, it would fire 2 shots for 10/10, then you could rapidly fire off another burst of 10/10 with a 4s CD before you could choose to DR again. However, the 10% jam chance, it would increase the CD to 6s until you could fire again.

Clan LBX, since they cant get slug mode, need to have their spread just massively buffed up to where they dont spread so far, but still enough to kinda spread damage at range.

[kosmos1214]

LordKnightFandragon, on 28 January 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

Nope, CAC need to vanish into the never ever sphere

CUAC need to fire in 2 shots, so for a 20, 10/10. Allow us to double rate only once and they get a 10% chance to jam up, which increases the Cooldown of the weapon by 2s over the normal CD.

So basically, if we were to use a CUAC20 in my mind, it would fire 2 shots for 10/10, then you could rapidly fire off another burst of 10/10 with a 4s CD before you could choose to DR again. However, the 10% jam chance, it would increase the CD to 6s until you could fire again.

Clan LBX, since they cant get slug mode, need to have their spread just massively buffed up to where they dont spread so far, but still enough to kinda spread damage at range.

the spread / slug thing from what i under stand is pretty much a programing thing and as to clan uacs i dont think they need there shell count reduced as much as they need the shell timeing lessened ie less time between shells

[LordKnightFandragon]

kosmos1214, on 28 January 2015 - 04:12 PM, said:

the spread / slug thing from what i under stand is pretty much a programing thing and as to clan uacs i dont think they need there shell count reduced as much as they need the shell timeing lessened ie less time between shells

Yeah, but if they deal damage in the exact same manner and about the same damage per tick, then why the heck not just laser vomit like they do now?
Lasers are hit scan, lighter, require no ammo, take less space

Clan Ballistics: Spread like lasers, require you to aim and lead, take alot of ammo and are quite a bit heavier, jam every 3rd shot....

Is it no wonder only the DWF takes them?

You wanna make them viable and used? Give them less shots then they do now, but still spread a little. 2 shots would do that. for a 2 that would be 1/1, 5 its 2.5/2.5, 10 its 5/5......

And in my model, it allows for the CUAC to fire 4 shots, so 10/10/10/10 in rapid succession, but they get the same CD as an IS gun and still retain the jam chance. Keep shot spread the same, so there is a chance not all the shots will land on target, but give us fewer shots...

[kosmos1214]

LordKnightFandragon, on 28 January 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

Yeah, but if they deal damage in the exact same manner and about the same damage per tick, then why the heck not just laser vomit like they do now?
Lasers are hit scan, lighter, require no ammo, take less space

Clan Ballistics: Spread like lasers, require you to aim and lead, take alot of ammo and are quite a bit heavier, jam every 3rd shot....

Is it no wonder only the DWF takes them?

You wanna make them viable and used? Give them less shots then they do now, but still spread a little. 2 shots would do that. for a 2 that would be 1/1, 5 its 2.5/2.5, 10 its 5/5......

And in my model, it allows for the CUAC to fire 4 shots, so 10/10/10/10 in rapid succession, but they get the same CD as an IS gun and still retain the jam chance. Keep shot spread the same, so there is a chance not all the shots will land on target, but give us fewer shots...

and i simply dont see pgi doing less then 4 shot on the biger clan uacs at least till the IS has them to
and as to why take them when lasers are lighter heat thats why and clan uacs are a diferent kind of dot mechanic then lasers
its a burst dot lasers do very little damage pretick where as a cuac 20 is fireing 5 shots that each deal 4 damage instantly to that location where as a large laser being a slow burn deals 7.3333 (my calculator rounded it ) pertick meaning a large laser needs to hold its aim for approximately 1 half second to deal the same damage

[LordKnightFandragon]

kosmos1214, on 28 January 2015 - 04:42 PM, said:

and i simply dont see pgi doing less then 4 shot on the biger clan uacs at least till the IS has them to
and as to why take them when lasers are lighter heat thats why and clan uacs are a diferent kind of dot mechanic then lasers
its a burst dot lasers do very little damage pretick where as a cuac 20 is fireing 5 shots that each deal 4 damage instantly to that location where as a large laser being a slow burn deals 7.3333 (my calculator rounded it ) pertick meaning a large laser needs to hold its aim for approximately 1 half second to deal the same damage

LOL, IS ACs are superior to Clan ACs period.

So, what? When the IS get UACs, they will get 1 shot with really nice Double rate? Lol...yeah, I can see that one......

Until then keep Clan ballistics underwhelming and QQ about Laser vomit.

[kosmos1214]

LordKnightFandragon, on 28 January 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

LOL, IS ACs are superior to Clan ACs period.

So, what? When the IS get UACs, they will get 1 shot with really nice Double rate? Lol...yeah, I can see that one......

Until then keep Clan ballistics underwhelming and QQ about Laser vomit.

actuly i expect larger is uacs to be multi shot it has to do with the kind of balance they are going for with the clan vs is
the clan is as a rule biger damage numbers with less damage concentration where as the is is as a rule geting more damage concentration with less damage

heres a vid that might help you under stand the idea its not directly related to shooters but its the same base concept

[LordKnightFandragon]

kosmos1214, on 28 January 2015 - 06:29 PM, said:

actuly i expect larger is uacs to be multi shot it has to do with the kind of balance they are going for with the clan vs is
the clan is as a rule biger damage numbers with less damage concentration where as the is is as a rule geting more damage concentration with less damage

heres a vid that might help you under stand the idea its not directly related to shooters but its the same base concept

I get what they are doing. But with Clans the way they are, its why we dont see any other Clan weapon types used but laser vomit. Until PGI buffs other Clan weapons a bit, we will continue to see the same ol' thing. So, no matter how much people wanna claim Clans OP, or w/e other reason for thinking the other clan weapons dont need a buff, they do...or players can gtfo with the Clans OP and Clans always Laser vomit.

[kosmos1214]

LordKnightFandragon, on 28 January 2015 - 06:43 PM, said:

I get what they are doing. But with Clans the way they are, its why we dont see any other Clan weapon types used but laser vomit. Until PGI buffs other Clan weapons a bit, we will continue to see the same ol' thing. So, no matter how much people wanna claim Clans OP, or w/e other reason for thinking the other clan weapons dont need a buff, they do...or players can gtfo with the Clans OP and Clans always Laser vomit.

and im not what im saying is i dont think they will lower the number of clan uac shots i do think they need to tighten up there burst time and yes the clans are under powered right now every one whos being objective knows it

[LordKnightFandragon]

kosmos1214, on 28 January 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

and im not what im saying is i dont think they will lower the number of clan uac shots i do think they need to tighten up there burst time and yes the clans are under powered right now every one whos being objective knows it

Lol, im almost positive they never will as well, but I dream......and really, thats how you convince clanners to use other weapons, buff the others....and it doesnt take a huge sweeping buff to really make stuff nice.