876 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

LordKnightFandragon, on 01 February 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

...7-3 and suddenly we lose the game 6-12........but yeah..

Since in that scenario they have managed to raise a mech from the dead, they probably have Jesus on their team. (Everyone knows he loves battletech but is a bit of a cheater)

[Golden Vulf]

Koshirou, on 02 February 2015 - 02:54 AM, said:

Okay, but that would mean nerfing Clan Weapons to the point where their performance is actually considerably worse than that of their IS counterparts, since they are still much lighter. And I don't see it.

Clan weapons generate more heat and require more tonnage in heatsinks.

The only clan energy weapons that are lighter are the Large Lasers and PPCs. Smalls and Mediums are the same.

All clan lasers have longer durations and longer cooldown times because of it.

IS mechs can adjust their engine and engine heatsinks to make up the difference of lighter clan weapons.

The only Clan mech you regularly see Dual Gauss mounted on is the 100 ton Dire Wolf, because no other clan mech can run Dual gauss without dropping a serious amount of armor. IS mechs of 65 tons and up run Dual Gauss quite well. Even a 50 tonner can run single gauss, but fire it at double the regular rate because of quirks. The Fact that the Gauss rifle on clan side weighs 3 fewer tons doesn't help when the mechs that can run it on clan side have 4-6 tons of heatsinks locked in the engine, and are unable to take endo steel or take a lighter engine.

Clanners tend to use energy weapons, despite the heat load, because otherwise the locked heatsinks would be a waste.

Did you know the Warhawk has 10 tons of locked heatsinks that can not be removed (20 double heatsinks stock), and doesn't have endo steel either? The entire left torso in all variants is locked heatsink criticals.

Warhawks typically run some kind of energy weapon build. It is not hard to guess why.

In a game where the double heatsinks are only worth 1.4 instead of the 2 they should be, Clan mechs are still forced into Energy Boating. Energy weapons also generate more heat than they are supposed to. The fact that many clan mechs have limited tonnage because of big engines, locked heatsinks, and locked standard structure, was supposed to balance out that clan energy weapons are lighter. But when Clan energy weapons are nerfed to cause more heat, and the heatsinks are nerfed to dissipate less heat, Clan mechs have to pack 4-8 extra tons of heatsinks, the clan mechs now no longer have any advantage.

Edited by Golden Vulf, 02 February 2015 - 08:03 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Golden Vulf, on 02 February 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:

Clan weapons generate more heat and require more tonnage in heatsinks.

The only clan energy weapons that are lighter are the Large Lasers and PPCs. Smalls and Mediums are the same.

All clan lasers have longer durations and longer cooldown times because of it.

Sounds you read the stats somehow objective?
Because you can read the numbers in two ways:

• Burnduration:
  
  • Clan ERMLaser deals 0,6dmg per 100ms and generates 0,52 heat per 100ms at ranges of 405m
    
  • IS MLaser deals 0,55dmg per 100ms and generates 0,44 heat per 100ms at ranges of 270m
• DPS
  
  • Clan ERMLaser deals 1,69 dps
    
  • IS MLASER deals 1,28 dps

Prove - the CLan ER Medium Laser is indeed hotter but its a fair trade for more range and damage

So this is a disagreement of your statement

Anyhow another test:
Clan Medium Pulse Laser

• Burnduration:
  
  • Clan MPLAS deals 0,94dmg per 100ms and generates 0,7 heat per 100ms at ranges of 330m
    
  • IS MPLAS deals 1dmg per 100ms and generates 0,66 heat per 100ms at ranges of 220m
• DPS
  
  • Clan MPLAS deals 2,08 dps
    
  • IS MPLAS deals 1,67 dps

Well again for the same weight you get almost the same damage (beam damage) - and you pay only slightly heat for more range.


Another one?
ER Large Laser?

• Burnduration:
  
  • Clan ERLLaser deals 0,73dmg per 100ms and generates 0,667 heat per 100ms at ranges of 740m
    
  • IS ERLLaser deals 0,72 dmg per 100ms and generates 0,64 heat per 100ms at ranges of 675m
• DPS
  
  • Clan ERLLaser deals 2,32 dps
    
  • IS ERLLaserdeals 2 dps

And again the Clan Weapon is the better one - so if you don't deal equal or the full damage of a Clan Laser its up to you to change it.

But if you are used to IS laser - and are not able to keep the target in sight for another 200ms - you still deal the same damage as the IS weapon, at more range - but you pay the additional heat anyhow.

If there is a real drawback with Clans its the "fixed" equipment - the Summoner would be awesome with ES, replace able Engine Heatsinks and mountable JumpJets (or one of those modifications would be enough)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 February 2015 - 11:38 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Sjorpha, on 02 February 2015 - 05:32 PM, said:

Since in that scenario they have managed to raise a mech from the dead, they probably have Jesus on their team. (Everyone knows he loves battletech but is a bit of a cheater)

Well, fine, that was an actual battle I have been in a number of times, so I messed up the numbers, but we literally, on now like 4 different battles, we were winning in one, 7-3, then when I died, and by the time my death screen cleared, it was 7-7. we lost 9-12. Another, we had 6-1, then, I died and by the time my death screen cleared, it was 6-6, we lost 6-12. So yeah.

[Kamikazepaul]

Ok guys, here are my 5 Cents to this topic.

After playing about 30-40 Matches, I have made up my mind. Although at the beginning i felt what the game mode was balanced, I now am convinced, that it is not. 90% of the games I played in CW were won by the clans, about half of them were Roflstomps. And that does not only go for organized 12-man groups. This is just ridiculous!

Even though i play on my own only, i should at least win some games with my, since my regular win rate is about 50%+, this is the only game i play that is so uneven (seemingly). so i have to say: Make the Clan Mechs OP as **** - as intended i would say, but for the love of god - make it 12v10!

This change would not even matter for the regular 12 man game mode, because both sides have IS and clan mechs.

[Lightfoot]

I would say there is no advantage to either Tech now. There are just good mechs and bad mechs and each faction has them in equal proportions.

[Lightfoot]

Kamikazepaul, on 03 February 2015 - 12:55 PM, said:

Ok guys, here are my 5 Cents to this topic.

After playing about 30-40 Matches, I have made up my mind. Although at the beginning i felt what the game mode was balanced, I now am convinced, that it is not. 90% of the games I played in CW were won by the clans, about half of them were Roflstomps. And that does not only go for organized 12-man groups. This is just ridiculous!

Even though i play on my own only, i should at least win some games with my, since my regular win rate is about 50%+, this is the only game i play that is so uneven (seemingly). so i have to say: Make the Clan Mechs OP as **** - as intended i would say, but for the love of god - make it 12v10!

This change would not even matter for the regular 12 man game mode, because both sides have IS and clan mechs.

I don't see this. I see the Defenders winning usually unless the Attackers are a unit on Comms. That's all that's happening, Clan or IS. I was pugging CW Saturday and all we got were IS 12 man or 10 man attacking teams on Comms and they always won easily. They just rushed in a furball and some made it to the Cannon each time and they shot only the Cannon, ignoring the aux generators. Usually won on the third wave.

[Vanguard319]

Sandtiger, on 19 September 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

Well spoken, the games not broken. Its the players who need to work on their skills. Please STOP catering to them!

And how are newer players supposed to improve their skills when they get constantly eaten alive by elites? The tutorial mode is crap, (amounts to shooting at stationary targets that aren't a threat at all.) the new player experience is crap, (tossed into <5 minute stomps where they have no time to learn anything let alone gain any xp.) and the paulconomy is set to a punishing grind. The new and inexperienced players need all the help they can get. It's the Veterans who don't need catering.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Vanguard319, on 03 February 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:

And how are newer players supposed to improve their skills when they get constantly eaten alive by elites? The tutorial mode is crap, (amounts to shooting at stationary targets that aren't a threat at all.) the new player experience is crap, (tossed into <5 minute stomps where they have no time to learn anything let alone gain any xp.) and the paulconomy is set to a punishing grind. The new and inexperienced players need all the help they can get. It's the Veterans who don't need catering.

But no one cares about the new player......what do they know?

But seriously, yeah, this game could use a serious new player experience overhaul.

Its good for the playerbase for a new guy to come on and play alongside his friends in his brand new trial mech, 1st game in against premades, cuz, I mean, PGI doesnt want to let 2 mans get in the pub Q, where they stand a chance of doing something. Instead, PGI likes to put 2 mans in against 8-12 mans with no time under their belt, and watch as they get blown to bits. Then, when the new player dies in 2 seconds flat, having really no time to even know what happened, he sees his end game rewards as like 10K, and its like...well, wow...that was fun.....he gives the game the benefit of the doubt and maybe he gets the good side next game?

Next game.....ready, set, go.....he walks up trying to find a target, wham, bam, thank you ma'am, down you go poor little noob. He returns to the bay...maybe now figuring out perhaps he shouldnt poke his head up....but then he gets to thinking...if I cant poke out to fire wihtout getting melted, what am I supposed to do? he again sees his rewards, 20K...and is like....well, this game sucks....

He then looks at a possible unlock path....lets just say, he takes an interest in a AWS, that is a big mech, 80t, about 11million. He then compares that to his earnings to date, hes made maybe 700K, only because the cadet bonus has granted it to him. His earnings are actually like 30K....his buddy then makes mention, oh, you need 3 of those to master it...he compares to his earnings....and is like really?

Then, after 10-20 games with his buddy, where he didnt really even get any chance to shoot or play or learn or anything, and hes clearly not making progress towards anything, he quits.......and if they last the cadet bonus, after that and they see the real rewards? They will.....and in the end, we have a lacking playerbase.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 04 February 2015 - 01:04 AM.

[DelphiAuriga]

LordKnightFandragon, on 04 February 2015 - 12:59 AM, said:

But no one cares about the new player......what do they know?

But seriously, yeah, this game could use a serious new player experience overhaul.

Its good for the playerbase for a new guy to come on and play alongside his friends in his brand new trial mech, 1st game in against premades, cuz, I mean, PGI doesnt want to let 2 mans get in the pub Q, where they stand a chance of doing something. Instead, PGI likes to put 2 mans in against 8-12 mans with no time under their belt, and watch as they get blown to bits. Then, when the new player dies in 2 seconds flat, having really no time to even know what happened, he sees his end game rewards as like 10K, and its like...well, wow...that was fun.....he gives the game the benefit of the doubt and maybe he gets the good side next game?

Next game.....ready, set, go.....he walks up trying to find a target, wham, bam, thank you ma'am, down you go poor little noob. He returns to the bay...maybe now figuring out perhaps he shouldnt poke his head up....but then he gets to thinking...if I cant poke out to fire wihtout getting melted, what am I supposed to do? he again sees his rewards, 20K...and is like....well, this game sucks....

He then looks at a possible unlock path....lets just say, he takes an interest in a AWS, that is a big mech, 80t, about 11million. He then compares that to his earnings to date, hes made maybe 700K, only because the cadet bonus has granted it to him. His earnings are actually like 30K....his buddy then makes mention, oh, you need 3 of those to master it...he compares to his earnings....and is like really?

Then, after 10-20 games with his buddy, where he didnt really even get any chance to shoot or play or learn or anything, and hes clearly not making progress towards anything, he quits.......and if they last the cadet bonus, after that and they see the real rewards? They will.....and in the end, we have a lacking playerbase.

There should be a "free mech" pack for starters, 3 mechs, lets say the Hunchbacks or Shadowhawk, or Blackjack. Threee of the same chassis not locked to their mechbays Those are newbie friendly.

[LordKnightFandragon]

DelphiAuriga, on 04 February 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

There should be a "free mech" pack for starters, 3 mechs, lets say the Hunchbacks or Shadowhawk, or Blackjack. Threee of the same chassis not locked to their mechbays Those are newbie friendly.

http://mwomercs.com/...ke-and-include/

That there is personally how I feel the New Player experience should go. This is supposed to be the Clan balance thread haha. Dont wanna derail it to badly.

[kosmos1214]

well new player experieance isent to far off realy so its ok

[Sandtiger]

Vanguard319, on 03 February 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:

And how are newer players supposed to improve their skills when they get constantly eaten alive by elites? The tutorial mode is crap, (amounts to shooting at stationary targets that aren't a threat at all.) the new player experience is crap, (tossed into <5 minute stomps where they have no time to learn anything let alone gain any xp.) and the paulconomy is set to a punishing grind. The new and inexperienced players need all the help they can get. It's the Veterans who don't need catering.

You make it sound as if it is nearly impossible for new players to receive help with proven combat techniques to make them more proficient. This is clearly a player skill issue. Even in Pick up groups (PUGS) I find that players who are more experienced giving tips to new players.

I myself have taken new players under my wing and taught them some techniques and strategies to improve their gaming experience. I find it difficult to believe that the incessant Nerfing from the devs is the answer. All it seems to do is frustrate nearly the entire player base.

Look at some of the polls that were issued before the release of community warfare http://mwomercs.com/...0/page__st__840 People voted for this! The Majority of them! Then one the ELO change was implemented many people said "Hold on a minute, this sucks!" The poll was opened again, and it was near 50/50 split as to keep it and toss it. A far cry from the 80/20 split that had transpired.

With this in mind let me reiterate. If it's not broke, don't fix it. Dumbing down our abilities to play well, is NOT the answer. You turn good pilots into mediocre ones, and reward poor player techniques. In a game of skill it has no place, nor bearing.
~Sand

[LordKnightFandragon]

kosmos1214, on 07 February 2015 - 02:06 PM, said:

well new player experieance isent to far off realy so its ok

ITs not even close to ok...

[Uthael]

kosmos1214, on 07 February 2015 - 02:06 PM, said:

well new player experieance isent to far off realy so its ok

Depending on your definition of a "new player"...
MWO wasn't the first battletech game I've played. I know not to get close to the enemy if I have ERLLs and he has AC/20s.
I've tried to introduce several friends (I believe I posted similar thing somewhere else already). None of them played a Battletech game before. All of them like customization and "big stompy robots". Only one had stayed. The one that always min-maxes stuff and searches for in-game advantages in his browser.
MWO ain't friendly to new players at all!

[kosmos1214]

Uthael, on 05 March 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

Depending on your definition of a "new player"...
MWO wasn't the first battletech game I've played. I know not to get close to the enemy if I have ERLLs and he has AC/20s.
I've tried to introduce several friends (I believe I posted similar thing somewhere else already). None of them played a Battletech game before. All of them like customization and "big stompy robots". Only one had stayed. The one that always min-maxes stuff and searches for in-game advantages in his browser.
MWO ain't friendly to new players at all!

to be some what fair nether is battletech now im not saying there isent room for improvement there is heck they have stated that its one of the things on the horizon after cw but as the game is at this moment in time its ok not great but ok it could be so much worse then this

[Dennma]

I have to say, these changes are really efficient. I used to hate drops in Community Warfare (IS Pilot here), but now it feels like both clan players and IS players stand a fair chance at victory. Games are closer, which makes it much more entertaining. I recently sold my TBR-Prime to fund another Atlas, but I had a lot more fun with the TBR after these changes. Healthy, fair challenge=better MWO, in my opinion.

DelphiAuriga, on 04 February 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

There should be a "free mech" pack for starters, 3 mechs, lets say the Hunchbacks or Shadowhawk, or Blackjack. Threee of the same chassis not locked to their mechbays Those are newbie friendly.

Couldn't agree more, that sounds like a good way to make this game more accessible to new players that wouldn't really cut into PGI's profits all that much as those 'mechs are available for C-Bills in-game.

Edited by Dennma, 07 March 2015 - 11:27 PM.

[Duke Nedo]

Didn't read through all but of course clans are still better than is, mainly because of clan XL engines + endo/ff that takes less space.

An IS mech has ACs and customizability, but tbh as long as they must use a standard engine to get the same survivability they will always be lacking in load-out, which gets worse when IS weapons are heavier and bulkier.

Most other things can be somehow cancelled out imo, but the engines almost makes it impossible to achieve clan-is balance as it is now. This is highlighted by the fact that most, if not all, of the bad clan mechs have oversized engines where the weight-scale puts them on par with an IS standard engine. (I don't think the Adder/kitfox/mistlynx are necessarily bad robots, at least not horrible, just niched different robots that I enjoy playing. With bad I refer to Iceferret and Gargoyle mainly, these guys I truly hate)

Edited by Duke Nedo, 10 March 2015 - 11:34 PM.

[Cementi]

Most of the "bad" clan mechs are bad for one reason. Their hit boxes suck. While I can do decent in almost any clan mech with the exception of the Kitfox, Stormcrow and Timberwolf all clan mechs have horrible hit boxes and even those have some exploitable weaknesses. This is why when people scream clans are OP I do not get it.

Myst Lynx, arm mounted weapons only, insanely oversized arms especially if you mount 2 lasers on them. Super easy to clip the wings on it.

Kitfox is IMO the only clan mech currently available that does not suffer an issue with gigantic unmissible hit boxes. This however is somewhat negated by it not being all that quick and the optional gigantic hit box given if you run ams or even the extremely effective triple ams. Just shouts shoot off my right arm. Annoys me to see the size of even a single ams on it in comparison to the spider's tiny one.

Adder, oh the adder how I wanted to love you. This mech was a favorite of mine from past games but while being shorter its low weapon mounts mean it has to show all of its profile to fire and that profile is so wide you cannot miss it.

Ice Ferret.....its a box on legs. Even more oversized than the Cicada.

Nova, exact same problems as the Adder but somewhat mitigated by its jump jets and ridiculous amount of hardpoints (even so I still love this mech).

Stormcrow, damn good mech. Ton for ton I would say it is the best clan mech though people say the timberwolf is better that is IMO only because it is bigger. It's only real weakness is it has low weapon mounts and the side torso's are relatively easy to pick off because they stick up so high.

Summoner another unmissable CT, this would be able to be ignored if we could unlock some of the jump jets and really put those high ballistic mounts to use.

Timberwolf, another damn good mech but IMO overrated by the community. Calling it the Timbergod amuses me as I do not think it is all that god like. Those ears are like giant bulleyes and even without them the side torso hit boxes are decently sized. Worse case senario you half its weapons capability early in the fight and give it heat issues. Then tear off the other ear and its done.

Hellbringer, same issues as the Summoner but redeemed by the ecm and lack of jump jets so you can put a bit more firepower on it. Side torso's have all the goodies in them though and with their size its really easy to pick them out. Depending on the load out its either take out the right for the autocannon's or the left for the lasers and ecm.

Gargoyle, fast slow turning barn.......it should be more agile that it is but for some reason they made its turn speed really slow. On top of that it again is plagued with the giant torso hit boxes CT especially. Even if that were not the main downside you can always just default to ripping an arm off as thats where almost all of its weapons are.

Warhawk, GIANT CT. Other than that its a pretty balanced mech and I have few complaints.

Direwolf, EPIC GIANT CT. Yep I know its a veritable gunship and in the hands of a patient pilot can be devastating. It is also super vulnerable to lights if it does not have an escort. Forces the entire team to slow down to baby sit it as it is super slow. Incredibly vulnerable to LRM fire as again EPIC GIANT CT. Narc this baby and hide with los and hold the lock and watch it melt under your allies lrmageeddon. Also because of that ct and slow speed is not very good at leading a charge because it gives the attackers too much time to focus it down.

There that is my opinion on clan balance, it is allready here. With the exception of the Stormcrow, (probally a little op but only so much that when quirks come it will get none and it gets used so much mostly because it has no compitition in its weight class) and Timberwolf (people need to learn to aim and avoid brawling with this thing) the overexagerated hit boxes on the rest of the mechs more than do enough to nerf them. The Direwolf and the Warhawk are good enough even with those hit boxes so I do not see much for quirks for them (none for the dire honestly and maybe some energy ones for the warhawk but nothing major.) The rest are vastly outperformed by numerous IS mechs. Which is why you almost never see them.

[LordKnightFandragon]

When the funny ass thing about mechs, the Warhawk is 12.1m tall, that is 39.6 feet tall, the Trailers hauled by 18 wheelers? 48 and 53 feet long. And im sure you have all seen a Trailer rollin down the road how long it is, and a Mech is not even as tall as one of those is long lol. Even the tall and lanky Toygoyle and Derp-xecutioner are only 49 feet tall, still not as tall as a 53 ft trailer lol.

Stand a trailer up on end and it might barely reach the top of a 2 story house. So, some of the heavier mechs are not even taller then 2-3 story buildings, yet in MWo, they are like the Jagers from Pacific Rim.....gargantuan monsters towering several stories up the sides of buildings...

The entirety of MWO could use a massive rescaling of pretty much every mech we have....

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 15 March 2015 - 03:36 PM.