876 replies to this topic

[Malleus011]

Russ Bullock, on 07 September 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

Only 20 pages? Okay sorry I'm late to the party but I am going to jump in here:

I was online with my regiment (Skye Rangers, not as huge as we once were but still pretty big) and the general feeling on feedback is that we're not really listened to, so why post anything?

Glad to see you in the thread and talking. We may not agree with everything you guys do, but engaging with the community is always appreciated.

[Russ Bullock]

Malleus011, on 07 September 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

We've asked and asked and proposed and proposed solutions to remove and diffuse PP FLD, to no avail. Obviously your community doesn't desire shorter time-to-kill.

That said, the IS small and medium laser are a tad hot, and could be cooled off to canon levels - but that's not going to fix Clan balance, or the PP/FLD problem.

Its tough because as you have seen there is a contingent of players that desire the FLD and do not like how much we have limited them so far in MWO compared to past MWO products. We are attempting to find a level everyone can live with and enjoy. I dont suspect that quest will ever be complete but we will continue trying.

Once I finish down that Clan balancing path, I may look at these IS weapons in fact I mentioned how we may look to help IS heat efficiency, this could be part of where we go with this.

UBCslayer, on 07 September 2014 - 09:24 PM, said:

Fairly certain most players agree that TTK shouldn`t be lowered, so why not add more robust quirks to IS mechs while at the same time increasing armour values on ALL mechs, something along the lines of 10%.

Yes we are considering this strongly in fact this sounds about right, we do the Quirk pass and everything on the Clan balancing list then we may need to increase armor and IS. But we will be careful to approach this in a way that helps all mechs equally of course and not just the larger mechs. But this change is not certain but we will decide after some of the other items are in place.

Malleus011, on 07 September 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

I was online with my regiment (Skye Rangers, not as huge as we once were but still pretty big) and the general feeling on feedback is that we're not really listened to, so why post anything?

Glad to see you in the thread and talking. We may not agree with everything you guys do, but engaging with the community is always appreciated.

Go ahead and throw me an example of how your not listened to and I will look to let you know if I agree or why you might feel that way.

[Imperius]

Russ Bullock, on 07 September 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

Well I wanted to make this about Clan balancing but a quick diversion.

You can make a good case that it is a sniping weapon and it still has all of that range. But the bottom line is that TTK was the most effected by PPC's doing too much pin point damage at ranges outside of most other weapons. It was just too dang good, and we dealt with constant PPC complaints of not being any fun and there not being any "brawling". Based on feedback we recieve most of our players feel the game is funnest when brawling is brought into a more medium range setting. This change helped with that, while still leaving them as a very effective weapon, they still almost travel at 1 km a second. May not make you feel better but that is the reasoning.

Fair enough, your new map forces medium range combat. Why are maps not considered more of way to balance weapons "effectiveness" than hard nerfs to the weapon?

You can add rocks and stuff to current maps to change play style.

I was referring to the clan ER-PPC I don't play is anymore gold Timberwolf and direwolf only.

Sorry I forgot to specify clan

[Too Much Love]

Russ Bullock, on 07 September 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

Only 20 pages? Okay sorry I'm late to the party but I am going to jump in here:



Well lets keep in mind that many players including myself are very concerned with "average time to death". I personally wish the average lifespan was a little longer. As we have stated many times lots of our design decisions are based on a desired game where players really feel like they are driving a giant stomping mech that can take some abuse and possibly survive a mistake. A more "battle of attrition" feeling is what we and many of our players desire. This has been the basis for most design choices that steered us away from large pin point Alpha's and punching holes through mechs. So I would rather try and keep time to death at least where it is and that means not just buffing up the IS mechs to reach Clans. So the main problem with buffing IS mechs is just that everyone dies faster.

How many of your truly prefer that style of gameplay in MWO? Please I am actually asking.

increaing time to kill is the right thing to do.

But, once again, the devil in the details. By simply nerfing everything you won't make it. People get angry over good weapons and good mechs become bad weapons and mechs. In fact, you nerf one thing - the other thing turns to meta. It's like hydra with many heads. But the more you nerf - the less choice people have - the less interesting game becomes.

Instead, try buffing armor, make lasers, including IS lasers, more viable, because it's the weapon that has spread damage.

Btw, I'm absolutaly OK with time to kill today. Most of the time I manage to survive to the end of the match or die one of the last.

[Malleus011]

As long as we've got you here, Russ, please consider yourself invited to Stock Mech Mondays tomorrow night. We're fighting all Tech 1 machines - and we have much lower time-to-kill, more maneuver warfare, and more fun matches than the stock game mode. While it might not be exact solutions to the Clan/IS balance issues, it might help illustrate what MWO machines *can* be like, in certain scenarios.

[Russ Bullock]

Kael 17, on 05 September 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

Okay, just...whatever.

Actually, I do have a question. Two, actually.

Why ask us to test these changes at all if you were going to inflict them as is anyway?

What data do you have that says these changes are going to mean things are 'balanced' when you start having people play mechs appropriate to their faction when community warfare hits?

Or are you even still planning to have players in some way or form restricted at all?

Okay so, three questions.

To the contrary the data collected on Public Test was significant and it showed just how heat efficient Clan mechs are. Look at the actual weapon changes, again your clan Mech still shoots at greater range, for more damage, for similar heat and often with less requirement for slots and tonnage. That is a Clan mech and Clan technology to a "T" so please rejoice. The Clan mechs will always retain this look and feel and will be very powerful.

[stjobe]

Russ Bullock, on 07 September 2014 - 09:22 PM, said:

I truly feel this is the most true to MechWarrior title there has ever been.

"True to MechWarrior"? You mean the Pen-and-paper BattleTech RPG? Or did you actually mean BattleTech?

If you actually think MWO is true to BattleTech, there is no hope.

Ghost heat, doubled armour, tripled RoF but TT dissipation, no heat penalties except shutdown at 100%, using the construction rules as customization rules.

There's very little actual BattleTech left except the names of 'Mechs and the tonnage and crits of weapons.

[Russ Bullock]

Malleus011, on 07 September 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

As long as we've got you here, Russ, please consider yourself invited to Stock Mech Mondays tomorrow night. We're fighting all Tech 1 machines - and we have much lower time-to-kill, more maneuver warfare, and more fun matches than the stock game mode. While it might not be exact solutions to the Clan/IS balance issues, it might help illustrate what MWO machines *can* be like, in certain scenarios.

Thanks I am going to be busy with the Town hall tomorrow night but this is a good point in case that your having fun with those lower DPS builds. I still greatly want to add the stock mechs button to the Private match window.

[Asmudius Heng]

Russ Bullock, on 07 September 2014 - 09:33 PM, said:

Go ahead and throw me an example of how your not listened to and I will look to let you know if I agree or why you might feel that way.

We could start with ECM but that goes back a ways. It was probably the first big point of contention between the community and PGI but generally links to role and sensor warfare or lack thereof.

You will open pandoras box with that comment Russ - if you are genuine in trying to engage on these issues though and will actually take the time to listen and explain it would be very pleasing for many but it will be a rough road.

[Kilo 40]

Russ Bullock, on 07 September 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

for similar heat

it sure doesn't feel that way. at least with clan mediums and small lasers after this patch.

way too hot IMO.

[Imperius]

Asmudius Heng, on 07 September 2014 - 09:41 PM, said:

We could start with ECM but that goes back a ways. It was probably the first big point of contention between the community and PGI but generally links to role and sensor warfare or lack thereof.

You will open pandoras box with that comment Russ - if you are genuine in trying to engage on these issues though and will actually take the time to listen and explain it would be very pleasing for many but it will be a rough road.

Agreed ECM killed most of the mechs usefulness a long time ago.

I've made many posts about ECM, GHOST HEAT, and the need for VOIP. Also still missing collisions and destruction, both of which I don't ever see coming and I have given up hope on them.

All are still a problem to this day. I'm lucky to jump on the forums anymore cause I just felt like it was a waste of my time. Also almost every thread I tried to make was quickly derailed by trolls. Yes, I'm aware you are now fixing this issue, but it's a tad bit late many have walked off or given up hope.

My friends are barely on MWO anymore, thus so am I. $1,500+ money put into MWO and I get a good night of games once a month now.

Edited by Imperius, 07 September 2014 - 09:53 PM.

[Russ Bullock]

Wingbreaker, on 05 September 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

Any additional heat penalties on side torso loss to clan mechs would effectively only nerf asymetrical builds, of which there are basically two.

Summoner/Adder

These are already two of the weakest Clan mechs.

Movement is acceptable, Heat is not. Once you've lost half the mech, your heat curve is already likely cut in half, so removing heat capacity wouldn't affect it. (Except for the stated edge cases)

This is reasonable and will be considered.

[Russ Bullock]

Asmudius Heng, on 07 September 2014 - 09:41 PM, said:

We could start with ECM but that goes back a ways. It was probably the first big point of contention between the community and PGI but generally links to role and sensor warfare or lack thereof.

You will open pandoras box with that comment Russ - if you are genuine in trying to engage on these issues though and will actually take the time to listen and explain it would be very pleasing for many but it will be a rough road.

ECM went through significant changes in what could negate it from BAP and PPC hits etc. But at this point I get just as many requests to add it to more mechs of which we are very careful to do. I think we did all we could to listen to player feedback.

I'm certainly open to any subject, but yes it's best to keep this around Clan weapon balance.

[Peiper]

Russ Bullock, on 07 September 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

How many of your truly prefer that style of gameplay in MWO? Please I am actually asking.

Russ, I do agree that mechs slugging it out over time is a good thing. I would go so far as to suggest that ALL weapons are lowered, or all armor upped to allow for that to happen. Another way to address this (and many other issues) is to add a cone-of-fire effect, where the cone widens according to either the number of weapons fired or the overall damage of all weapons fired simultaneously. This would help your alpha-strike problem and help get rid of the ghost heat boogyman. Also, creating sized hardpoints would help address that. You can't fit an AC5 in where there was previously a single machine gun mount, for example.

Oh, and Battle Values for mechs would help you balance them. Make some mechs more valuable than others for matchmaking purposes, as tonnage isn't the only thing that makes a mech better.

You guys gotta have an idea man to help you think outside the box.

Edited by Peiper, 07 September 2014 - 09:56 PM.

[Russ Bullock]

Imperius, on 07 September 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

Agreed ECM killed most of the mechs usefulness a long time ago.

Well make a new post and let me know its location so we can keep this on Clan balance.

[Imperius]

Russ Bullock, on 07 September 2014 - 09:50 PM, said:

Well make a new post and let me know its location so we can keep this on Clan balance.

I was just pointing out a time feedback was ignored and agreeing with him, I expanded that post so please re-read it.

[Asmudius Heng]

Russ Bullock, on 07 September 2014 - 09:50 PM, said:

ECM went through significant changes in what could negate it from BAP and PPC hits etc. But at this point I get just as many requests to add it to more mechs of which we are very careful to do. I think we did all we could to listen to player feedback.

I'm certainly open to any subject, but yes it's best to keep this around Clan weapon balance.

Those effects were added much later and most people still disagree it should be a cloaking tool to start with - the added imbalance of a team who by luck starts with a lot of ECM compared to those who do not means that those counters are still hit and miss and it generally is a convoluted system - there were many alternatives offered when ECM first came out to make it function differently from the very beginning ... the adding of counters never changed its initial implementation which is where people were feeling ignored to get back to the point.

I wont state any more as you say this is about clan balance, but you must remember hundred of threads when ECM was put in detailing different ways to do it and the reasons it was problematic etc from initial concept.

[Russ Bullock]

MoonUnitBeta, on 05 September 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

The changes aren't even that bad guys lol...

They're balancing the game and you guys are throwing a fit like it's a bad thing. The first thing he mentioned was that they don't intend clans to be OP.

Why is this balancing a surprise? The changes aren't even knee jerk and are all very reasonable, especially how they go about deducing that 10vs12 won't be compatible.

I dont expect all to see things the same way but you see the challenge here, many see and understand and agree. Others say its worth quitting over.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Russ Bullock, on 07 September 2014 - 09:57 PM, said:

I dont expect all to see things the same way but you see the challenge here, many see and understand and agree. Others say its worth quitting over.

you definitely can not please everyone.

The only time I ever had a problem with Clan balance is when you bumped the ERLL to 2.0 seconds.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 07 September 2014 - 10:02 PM.

[Russ Bullock]

ShadowWard, on 05 September 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

Well, Lets see. Last patch, you pretty much made CERLL's useless due to a heavy-handed Duration penalty + heat increase. Making us have to use LPL's just to have a 'viable' weapon. Now you turn around and do the exact same thing to the LPL's and SPL's.. making a build i had (2x LPL, 3x SPL, 3xMG, 2x LRM10) that was decently heat-stable (meaning i 'could' overcook myself but it wasn't a 'sure thing'), nearly worthless as i now hit 22% heat just from firering the 2 LPL's once, and the 3 SPL's i have nearly cook me after 3 or 4 salvo's.

Can i just use IS weapons on my Timber Wolf?.. at least then i dont have to worry about nuking myself for having the nerve to want to fire more than 1 weapon at a time.

I think this is a very good example that just points to the descrepency being in base play style theory. Both LPL hitting 22% and 3-4 salvos. As it pertains to TTK and brawling, I think we want players to have to make more decisions to actually cease to fire their weapons a little more frequently than currently. But also keep in mind if its consistent across the board and balanced then you are at no disadvantage. You have the same stats as everyone else, and make no mistake if i let you put IS lasers on your Clan mech you would choose the Clan ones, range and damage will always win out on the decision process and Clan lasers always have more range and damage.