237 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Kiiyor, on 06 September 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

If people are going to argue, they can at least be (moderately) informed!

What's there to argue about?

Quote

• The IS absolutely have mechs that can compete with Clan mechs.
  
• Good IS mechs are also very good.
  
• IS mechs kill with less damage (more efficiently).

Especially this final gem:

Quote

• In a match between good Clan mechs and good IS mechs, these two figures almost balance each other out.

It's now settled. Clans are not OP!

[El Bandito]

Mcgral18, on 07 September 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

All mechs play pretty much the same, IS or Clan doesn't change that. Just about all Clan mechs are mastered by now as well. I don't see much difference coming over the next few weeks.

You are going to see a lot of basic skilled Summoners soon. Along with some "Summoner is crap", or "Summoner is better than you think" threads. A Summoner is unlike any mechs IS pilots had piloted before.

[cleghorn6]

Kiiyor ... I ... I think I love you.

Also, I'm sitting here at midnight on a school night sorting my EoM screens to send. Email inbound shortly. Or tomorrow. Whichever.

[Mcgral18]

El Bandito, on 07 September 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

You are going to see a lot of basic skilled Summoners soon. Along with some "Summoner is crap", or "Summoner is better than you think" threads. A Summoner is unlike any mechs IS pilots had piloted before.

It's like an AC20 (or perhaps more accurate a dual AC2) cataphract with 4 MLs.

Though I suppose it can have lots of missiles.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

With all the Thunderbolt pilots I see, I don't think the summoner will do that badly in the hands of IS pilots.

[Entropy11]

Of interest to me, since I only own 3 mechs:

Why is the SHD-5M underperforming so badly vs most of the othe shawks?

[stjobe]

Entropy11, on 07 September 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

Why is the SHD-5M underperforming so badly vs most of the othe shawks?

It's too balanced.

No, I'm serious. The other SHawks have at least three hard points of one or the other type, the 5M has two of each, which makes it worse. It can't "boat" anything.

[Carrie Harder]

stjobe, on 07 September 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

It's too balanced.

No, I'm serious. The other SHawks have at least three hard points of one or the other type, the 5M has two of each, which makes it worse. It can't "boat" anything.

Personally, I've found that the 5M is the "jack of all trades" of the Shad lineup. It's not the best at any one given job, but it can probably be configured in more various ways than the others.

[Mcgral18]

stjobe, on 07 September 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

It's too balanced.

No, I'm serious. The other SHawks have at least three hard points of one or the other type, the 5M has two of each, which makes it worse. It can't "boat" anything.

It can mount 2 PPCs and an AC10, which is nice.

I used to like 2 AC2s, 2 MPLs and an SRM10...but PGI doesn't want me to have any fun with builds. But you are right about it having nothing, other than JJs.

It is the highest popping poptart, with the capacity to do PPC+Gauss+5JJs, the only SHD that can. Haven't used it since HoverJets™, though.

[Carrie Harder]

Mcgral18, on 07 September 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

It can mount 2 PPCs and an AC10, which is nice.

I used to like 2 AC2s, 2 MPLs and an SRM10...but PGI doesn't want me to have any fun with builds. But you are right about it having nothing, other than JJs.

It is the highest popping poptart, with the capacity to do PPC+Gauss+5JJs, the only SHD that can. Haven't used it since HoverJets™, though.

One derp build I've made on the 5M was 2 AC/2 + 2 ML + 2 LRM5. I was surprised that it was actually somewhat functional.

[Entropy11]

stjobe, on 07 September 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

It's too balanced.

No, I'm serious. The other SHawks have at least three hard points of one or the other type, the 5M has two of each, which makes it worse. It can't "boat" anything.

That makes sense. The builds I've tried with my 5m have been 2xAC/2+2xML+2xSSRM2 or swap the /2's for an UAC/5 and some more AMS, and sure it's solid at times but never where I feel like I was really performing great in any way shape or form. It's hard to built a 5M where it won't contribute, but it's also hard to build one to wreck face.

[Jman5]

Kiiyor, on 06 September 2014 - 08:59 PM, said:

I think points 4 and 5 are the bigger catalysts.

TBH, when I saw the hunch data, I expected it to be a lot higher. I had a look through the samples after that, trying to see if there was anything obvious pointing to it's poor performance, but depressingly I found that the sample appeared to be robust. Lots of unique players, and a surprisingly low standard deviation with the results, meaning that more people were performing close to the average. The 4SP used to be a god. Heck, Koreanese kicked butt in the laserback in some of the tournaments last year.

When you compare it to a mech like the Shawk, there are a lot of similarities; high mounted ballistics, and a decent mix of energy. It's only 5 tonnes lighter than the Shawk, but the Shawk I think has better hitboxes, and the JJ's, they really add to it's survivability.

And that's the big one - survivability. The Shawk can peek and shoot, and it's JJ's can let it get to cover, or make a nice bouncing brawler. The Hunchback is a brawler also, but a brawler that can't take hits, and is easy-peasy to hit. One shot from a direwolf or metacat can utterly remove it from the battle. If you run an XL for speed, you can be one-shot. If you run a standard for survivability, you can't carry enough dakka to make a difference in battle.

I really do write too much in posts.

I pay special attention to how people perform in the hunchback and I wasn't surprised by the numbers you posted. I rarely see hunchbacks break 200 damage.

Quite frankly, I think the community as a whole is largely misguided in how to build and play the hunchback properly. A lot of the builds people use are the same ones you would have seen in 2012. They're mostly anachronistic and not well designed for the current meta. This is true not just for the Hunchback but for a few other older non-missile boat mechs as well. People stopped thinking about how they could make it fit in the game and instead moved on to newer mechs.

I think I need to create a hunchback guide because it's not a bad mech. People are just not doing it right.

Edited by Jman5, 07 September 2014 - 10:54 AM.

[Ultimax]

Jman5, on 07 September 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

I pay special attention to how people perform in the hunchback and I wasn't surprised by the numbers you posted. I rarely see hunchbacks break 200 damage.

Quite frankly, I think the community as a whole is largely misguided in how to build and play the hunchback properly. A lot of the builds people use are the same ones you would have seen in 2012. They're mostly anachronistic and not well designed for the current meta. This is true not just for the Hunchback but for a few other older non-missile boat mechs as well. People stopped thinking about how they could make it fit in the game and instead moved on to newer mechs.

I think I need to create a hunchback guide because it's not a bad mech. People are just not doing it right.

I'm glad you added the last line, because as I was reading I was thinking:

"I should urge him to create a Hunchback guide."

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 September 2014 - 11:12 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

stjobe, on 07 September 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

It's too balanced.

No, I'm serious. The other SHawks have at least three hard points of one or the other type, the 5M has two of each, which makes it worse. It can't "boat" anything.

Watch out for trebs too. They suffer from the same issues.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Jman5, on 07 September 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

I pay special attention to how people perform in the hunchback and I wasn't surprised by the numbers you posted. I rarely see hunchbacks break 200 damage.

Quite frankly, I think the community as a whole is largely misguided in how to build and play the hunchback properly. A lot of the builds people use are the same ones you would have seen in 2012. They're mostly anachronistic and not well designed for the current meta. This is true not just for the Hunchback but for a few other older non-missile boat mechs as well. People stopped thinking about how they could make it fit in the game and instead moved on to newer mechs.

I think I need to create a hunchback guide because it's not a bad mech. People are just not doing it right.

It's the survivability that really cripples the hunchback atm. For a squat slow brawler of a mech it really should be able to handle some decent punishment. I'll concede there are some times when the stars align and I have a good match or two but even a match with decent kills the damage is still abysmally low due to how fast they are knocked out, and people consider you a vulture more than a brawler.

Just to throw a bone out there to my Hunchie bros, here were the two best matches from last night out of the dozen or so dismal sub 200dmg games just to back up Jman and others than it CAN be done, but it relies heavily on the pilot and some dumb luck. I logged off after the last basic skill was finished on the 4P because I couldn't take anymore. Luckily the night ended on a high note.

Edited by lockwoodx, 07 September 2014 - 11:40 AM.

[Entropy11]

stjobe, on 07 September 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

It's too balanced.

No, I'm serious. The other SHawks have at least three hard points of one or the other type, the 5M has two of each, which makes it worse. It can't "boat" anything.

It's interesting then that the 2H, with 3 ballistic and 3 Missile, making it versitile AND somewhat boatable, is the worst of the lot. Why is that? I'm guessing it's because it doesn't have the tonnage to take advantage of its 3 ballistic hardpoints, the 2K obviously has its high-mounted energy for poptarting, The 2D2 is a highly mobile missile boat.. At a glance the 2D looks like it should be good, but it's just middle of the road. This is all very confusing.

[Ens]

damn fine read
so much text

but i did it!!

[Tarl Cabot]

lockwoodx, on 07 September 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

It's the survivability that really cripples the hunchback atm. For a squat slow brawler of a mech it really should be able to handle some decent punishment. I'll concede there are some times when the stars align and I have a good match or two but even a match with decent kills the damage is still abysmally low due to how fast they are knocked out, and people consider you a vulture more than a brawler.

Just to throw a bone out there to my Hunchie bros, here were the two best matches from last night out of the dozen or so dismal sub 200dmg games just to back up Jman and others than it CAN be done, but it relies heavily on the pilot and some dumb luck. I logged off after the last basic skill was finished on the 4P because I couldn't take anymore. Luckily the night ended on a high note.

Just a reminder that those high damage points are not just the damage done by your weapons directly but that the majority of the damage was done by initiating ammo explosions, be it on either/both of the mechs you killed or another mech that someone else may or may not have finished off.

I wished total damage was broken up into both direct and indirect (ammo explosions) damage.

And I too would like to see how this meters out. The primary thing that the Clan mechs do have going for it is its balanced and larger payload, and that the lose of a side torso (2 engine hits/lost of side part XL engine) does not change its heat cap nor dissipation, allowing it to fire the remaining weapons without slowing down its rate of fire.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 07 September 2014 - 12:37 PM.

[Pht]

Kiiyor, on 06 September 2014 - 05:35 AM, said:

...

... this, for everyone who complained or ever will complain that my thread here is too long... aka, it takes a statistician to really REALLY make things long. If you want it even worse, try an economist who took a statistics class.

Kiiyor, a few quick questions.

What's the image limit? I know we can only use the quote function ten times per post and you nor I have run into a post lenght limit yet. Second - Call me blind and lazy - where's the (really? I can't reference things you turn? stupid ninja bot) and dials to change your thread titles?

Now for the important stuff...

I did a very quick and light scan of the text only (none of the pics) - you discuss your "balance theorem" yet I don't see it defined and stated anywhere in your post. Is it there and I've missed it, or in another of your posts? If it's not, would you consider definig what you mean by proper/good "balance" so we can have an idea of where you're headed towards?

Nice to see I'm not the only one who does obscenly long posts.

"data to crunch" - If you go to this link: http://mwomercs.com/...different-idea/ and do a page search for the text "in other words, the maths that explain the gameplay in concrete terms." the spoiler fold just under that text will have maths describing how battlemechs in the lore actually work.

----

When I get a few consecutive hours I'll digest your OP in this thread and maybe have a few comments.

Edited by Pht, 07 September 2014 - 12:45 PM.

[Mothykins]

I'm gonna suppose that desync'd match results shouldn't be submitted? Because I just got wasted two matches running from the game connection dumping and a spider wrecking my day.