157 replies to this topic

[Garandos]

Pjwned, on 09 September 2014 - 09:07 PM, said:

I'm honestly not really seeing how a player-run market would be much better in this game, not to mention it seems like a big hassle to implement properly.

MC based Market.

Players decide on the sale price for their used Product, like i put up my SIB for 1K MC instead of the 3 it does cost for a new one.
players now can bid against each other for 1-2-3 days, winner gets my SIB.

5% of the sale volume are kept by PGI, so there is still value going towards PGI

Done.

[Garandos]

Dark Jackal, on 09 September 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

Ah you see, you have to see the caveat on the point I was making. This is easily missed by folks that have not taken any college level history course and maybe did not have the benefit of a professor make a point about how people come to determine what A, B, C are and what makes them equal within their own minds.

Reality of information is not the same as someone logically putting it together for you AND you decide to believe him without doing anything part to understand the subject matter. In other words, I was saying not to take whatever the guys says at face value because his works are solely on logical arrangement rather than provide actual knowledge. Sure he believes he has some insights but also feels not to provide any tangible proof of his arguments for you. Reality demands proof not just mere belief.

There is a saying that knowledge is power. Having knowledge provides you a means to figure out on your own and come to your own conclusions about the objectivity of his statements. That being said, you have to do your own homework and ask the right questions. For example, have you ever come across a successful Fortune 500 Company that considers it's Platinum members whales?

So why believe this whale of a tale?

What a nice and pointless mix up of "important sounding words" as a matter of fact, you are still saying nothing, you just insult people indirectly,
but here is the catch, you are a anonymous nobody, with NO proof of his education or his practical knowledge.

And you try by barely hidden insults, directed at peoples education, and talking nonsense, without any facts to back up what you say,
to talk down the oppinion of a team of professionals doing a show about a topic?

"Yada yada no faces! DEM FACES!"

How about you hit up google Mr. "I Haz best profesar ever! I IZ SMARTER TAN YOU!"

i guess you just spend tons of money on MWO (for which people are actually gratefull, at least your fellow players)
and now you feel butthurt because of the term whale.

But JUSt for you, some bits from a quick google search:


"Today, the idea of a “whale” carries a different weight for each company. 5th Planet Games, a developer of social games for both casual and hardcore audiences, starts classifying its players as whales when they spend $100 or more a month. That’s a big jump from whales on Facebook, for instance, where social gamers could drop $25 per month to meet the same qualification"

so YES, companys DO call their customers Whales.
Do they do it openly? No.

If you *really* think that ANY company out there, refers to its customers as "our VALUED CUSTOMERS!"

When nobody is listening.

You sir, are a daydreamer.

[Black Ivan]

Allow in game farming of MCs

[Dark Jackal]

Pjwned, on 09 September 2014 - 09:57 PM, said:

It seems (emphasis there because I'm not actually sure) like you're saying people should believe you more despite not really providing any relevant, tangible proof for your argument either.

Proof of what in particular? If the discussion is literally the Free to Play model, then what proof do you seek of me when you can easily check for yourself, doing your own homework, on the various free to play models work currently in other games. We don't need to what-if.

Edited by Dark Jackal, 10 September 2014 - 05:11 AM.

[Vandul]

Pilot skill trees ("pilot slots" with different pilots with specific specialties) , custom mech bays and/or dropships, and custom character avatars are all very viable ways to expand and continue the cash stream without changing the game to a pay for advantage format.

PGI (with our without the guidance of IGP) have done a pretty good job at keeping the game from becoming P2W.

[Pjwned]

Dark Jackal, on 10 September 2014 - 05:10 AM, said:

Proof of what in particular? If the discussion is literally the Free to Play model, then what proof do you seek of me when you can easily check for yourself, doing your own homework, on the various free to play models work currently in other games. We don't need to what-if.

I look at most other F2P games and don't see them reaming their customers in hopes of the "whales" spending inordinate amounts of money for them to make a good profit, or if they do then they aren't making as much money as the quality games that don't do that. It seems like you just resent your title as a whale and dismiss the whole point of the video that you claimed was wrong (without any actual arguments) because of hurt feelings.

[Dark Jackal]

Garandos, on 10 September 2014 - 12:52 AM, said:

What a nice and pointless mix up of "important sounding words" as a matter of fact, you are still saying nothing, you just insult people indirectly,
but here is the catch, you are a anonymous nobody, with NO proof of his education or his practical knowledge.

You are allowed to believe what you want but saying I insulted someone is a bit much of an opinion taking in two to three different posts that are for different things to different people because the internet makes it so that there is not a real conversation and you feel opinionated enough to comment in without understand what's happening. I never said someone must believe the guy's youtube video, on the contrary, that information pertains to the OP, which was about free to play, can be researched by the folks here to gain real knowledge on the subject matter than a short impersonal clip talking about 'whales'. My comments were on topic you see, not a skud missile to someone else on this board on a personal level.

So 'Garandos', whoever you are, let's continue shall we.

In a discussion, do you normally not take the time and effort to properly cite your source material when you quote material? Saying something along the lines of, let's quote you, "How about you hit up google Mr. "I Haz best profesar ever! I IZ SMARTER TAN YOU!" and yet not link properly your source material?

Instead, we have a link to another team's main website, 5th planet games, which can be considered as competitive advertisement and a Code of Conduct violation on these boards seeing as you did not post a link to any relevant information pertaining to your point. Don't expect your audience to do your homework for you and dig around a library for sources because you think it's easy yourself to not do citation work when you need to make a point.

And just to top it all off, you provide the best example of the logical gap I was neutrally typed to folks to be wary of. Let's quote box you so it stands out:

Garandos, on 10 September 2014 - 12:52 AM, said:

so YES, companys DO call their customers Whales.
Do they do it openly? No.

What a leap of logic that you have now overstated your claim to the point it was literal proof just because you can comfortably read the handful of poorly cited material on the internet.

Let's start asking tough questions now and apply your logic to this topic.

So, are you suggesting that PGI, that runs off of a free to play model, that the Legendary Founder's badge means Whale customer? Do you have proof PGI calls it's customers whales? So what is your point in this discussion as it relates to PGI and the free to play model and that guy's free-to-whale video?

[miliardo]

Can someone link me to a thread with that "Islander" remark? I haven't played this game for a year nor visited forums until yesterday And all of a sudden I find out about new PGI game and this "Islander" remark apparently from someone working for PGI...

[Dark Jackal]

Pjwned, on 10 September 2014 - 05:33 AM, said:

I look at most other F2P games and don't see them reaming their customers in hopes of the "whales" spending inordinate amounts of money for them to make a good profit, or if they do then they aren't making as much money as the quality games that don't do that. It seems like you just resent your title as a whale and dismiss the whole point of the video that you claimed was wrong (without any actual arguments) because of hurt feelings.

Is that to me or to PGI?

It sounded like you consider folks with the badges that are not employees of PGI on the board as 'whales'. That's a pretty tough personal opinion to display because you want to say that and hide behind the guy's youtube video so that you don't necessarily directly say that to other customers but yet do hold that opinion give what I underlined in your quote. So I guess you consider all folks with badges as some form of cetacean?

You can't have that argument both ways. I'm sorry, but, you are responsible for your words. Don't look to hide behind a youtube video or someone else's opinion then mistake their reality for the status quo when you yourself just assumes the intentions of people you don't know beforehand.

Since I work in the business world, I can read between the lines of what Russ Bullock was saying. I understand consumer complaints but there is a stark difference in blaming a company, blaming other customers directly, then blaming both in one go.

[Cyberiad]

Restore 3rd person view to usability. Add the map back in and allow arm movements. I personally never use 3rd person view but since 3rd person view is the default view, new players are forced to use this first. I have tried to get IRL friends to play MWO and everyone who has tried it has started in 3rd person view and doesn't know how to change to 1st person. Then they are extremely confused because they have no idea where they are since they have no minimap. As for the competitive community, we have private matches now where you can set the view mode to whatever you want.

[Fut]

SiliconLife, on 10 September 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

Restore 3rd person view to usability. Add the map back in and allow arm movements. I personally never use 3rd person view but since 3rd person view is the default view, new players are forced to use this first. I have tried to get IRL friends to play MWO and everyone who has tried it has started in 3rd person view and doesn't know how to change to 1st person. Then they are extremely confused because they have no idea where they are since they have no minimap. As for the competitive community, we have private matches now where you can set the view mode to whatever you want.

Wouldn't it be easier to explain how to switch from 3rd to 1st, rather than start changing all the functionality of 3rd PV?

[ToxinTractor]

Making the game more enjoyable with the base mechs? (maybe more Cbills per match/lower costs)

We hero mechs should be bought to be fun. not for "grind" reasons.

They should look/try other f2p games to get a idea of how there models are working.

[Pjwned]

Dark Jackal, on 10 September 2014 - 05:55 AM, said:

Is that to me or to PGI?

It sounded like you consider folks with the badges that are not employees of PGI on the board as 'whales'. That's a pretty tough personal opinion to display because you want to say that and hide behind the guy's youtube video so that you don't necessarily directly say that to other customers but yet do hold that opinion give what I underlined in your quote. So I guess you consider all folks with badges as some form of cetacean?

You can't have that argument both ways. I'm sorry, but, you are responsible for your words. Don't look to hide behind a youtube video or someone else's opinion then mistake their reality for the status quo when you yourself just assumes the intentions of people you don't know beforehand.

Since I work in the business world, I can read between the lines of what Russ Bullock was saying. I understand consumer complaints but there is a stark difference in blaming a company, blaming other customers directly, then blaming both in one go.

I'm not sure I entirely understand what your point is with all this, but it seems like you want me to clarify my position on "whales" and the games/companies that depend on them because you seem to think I'm "hiding" behind the video somehow, so here:

• If you're a business then I think that reaming your customers so that you can depend on whales to spend a bunch of money means that you have a bad business model because I agree with the reasons stated in the video about "free-to-whales."
  
• If you're a customer that spends a ton of money on F2P games that rely on a business model like this then I think that you're supporting a bad business model. I also personally think it's foolish to spend a ton of money on any F2P game really, but at least in some games they allow you to spend not too much money to get something worthwhile.
  
• As for how that's relevant to this game, I think the prices are much too high for what you get, and at least some people seem to agree with that going by this thread.

I'm also not sure whose intentions are unclear here, but when I see you trying to shoot down a video without any real argument because it criticizes some F2P games for their reliance on whales while prominently displaying your whale badge (which is, since you mentioned it, what I think about a set of badges like yours) then I'm not sure how much is really up for assumption.

Edited by Pjwned, 10 September 2014 - 06:38 AM.

[Lord de Seis]

Good points made in the video and I agree with them completely but it is a very tough decision for a company like PGI to make. If they lower prices then no longer have the revenue to sustain the company that is no good either, it would be a huge gamble for them that they won't make unless they are desperate.

[Dark Jackal]

Pjwned, on 10 September 2014 - 06:37 AM, said:

I'm also not sure whose intentions are unclear here, but when I see you trying to shoot down a video without any real argument because it criticizes some F2P games for their reliance on whales while prominently displaying your whale badge (which is, since you mentioned it, what I think about a set of badges like yours) then I'm not sure how much is really up for assumption.

What does badges and whales have anything to do with what the Original Poster discussed?

More to the point, you are making blanket statements about PGI's customers and about PGI. We know this because you cannot get any of these badges without showing up as being a customer regardless of whether or not the amount of money you put in.

Whales isn't the issue.

They are customers, period. No more no less. You don't provide anything tangible to this discussion and do not wish to confront that pesky issue of real evidence because you would not actually discuss free to play models.

What evidence do you think we were discussing about? Whether or not whales exist or improving free to play models overall, i.e. the customer experience for folks that actually pay regardless of the actual amount?

This isn't a personal jab because videos like that change the subject and intention around because that's all he is discussing about. So you are not talking as a customer, relating to other customers, or even approaching valid customer-provider relationship. Instead, you have some youtube video with polemic arguments and do exactly as the video does and discuss things in polemic terms.

Polemic
http://dictionary.re...wse/polemic?s=t

noun
1. a controversial argument, as one against some opinion, doctrine, etc.
2. a person who argues in opposition to another; controversialist.
___

We want improvement as the customer from PGI right? There are better ways to get a point across than trying to be a hip cat with coolness all day.

[Clint Steel]

Nice video OP

Being able to gift to other players would be nice. Would like to give some MC to a friend as a surprise gift, which currently isn't possible.

Mechs should be cheaper for real money. This does suck for those who already purchased them though, not sure how to deal with that. But you wouldn't catch me spending real money on regular mechs at their current prices.

Mech Bays for money I think is one of the best F2P game designs I've seen, as it allows full play, and they are pretty affordable, to acquire.

Premium time should be purchased in "Number of Games", not "Amount of Time" this seems super sensible, as many people have lives where they have to go to work, school etc. and don't like losing out on the time purchased, so they just won't buy it. Thats my point of view anyway.

Something to experiment with would be to "pay" the players to play. If it seems there is a shortage of people on the servers you could give MC to people for playing. This could be something like only certain times of day, or specific days, and it wouldn't have to be much, maybe 5 MC a game or something.

Could experiment with in game economies, like the ability for players to sell their old mechs for MC to to other players.

Purchasing permanent discounts might be interesting, where you spend 50 bucks and get a 50% discount on weapons and such. I personally like to spend one decent size purchase on a game as opposed to many microtransactions, so this appeals to me to some extent.

Make joining an org require purchasing MC at some point. No cost to join, just prove they are willing to spend money on that account. This will let the orgs give money to their poorer players, with out people milking the Bonuses you get for starting a new account and just dumping the credits into the Orgs Account. (Though this isn't as easy as it sounds since you have to make due with the somewhat less than ideal trail mechs)

I guess thats it for now.

[Malleus011]

Clint Steel, on 10 September 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

Mechs should be cheaper for real money. This does suck for those who already purchased them though, not sure how to deal with that. But you wouldn't catch me spending real money on regular mechs at their current prices.

They've tracked our purchases, and should be able to grant MC refunds if they wished.

Personally, I wish they'd drop the MC prices for 'mechs to the '50% off sale' prices, and leave them there. Have sales for colors and cockpit junk if you must, but price the 'mechs more reasonably. 20$ for a medium hero is a bit steep.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dark Jackal, on 10 September 2014 - 05:39 AM, said:

Instead, we have a link to another team's main website, 5th planet games, which can be considered as competitive advertisement and a Code of Conduct violation on these boards seeing as you did not post a link to any relevant information pertaining to your point. Don't expect your audience to do your homework for you and dig around a library for sources because you think it's easy yourself to not do citation work when you need to make a point.

You must be a lawyer, your arguments have followed the line of the ancient sophists.

Trying to use eloquent speech to prove that all truth is relative but yours without actual experience in the realm of design like those who created the video other than experience within playing games like the rest of us. To those of us who have played several F2P games and know which ones we liked and why, we can use that experience to judge the actual value of the arguments put forth in that video. This could be supported by the strength of F2P games within the current market that actually fit with the generalities laid forth in all of their micro-transaction/F2P videos; games like TF2, LoL, and DOTA are far more noteworthy and successful than games like MWO and WoT. Sure you can use the 'niche' genre to explain part of this lack of success, but most of us can see that this game has struggled to get new players due to problems outside the gameplay itself. Hell it has lost some of its core players due to these issues. Whereas many are like myself and refuse to spend any of my own money on this game due to the absurd pricing scheme in combination with severe issues within the game itself. Experience by itself is worthless without the Knowledge to apply it, you would be correct, but to say that everyone of us that agrees with that video is lacking on one side is as silly as you saying the same about myself. Who are you to say I lack experience or that I havn't done my homework just because my view does not line up with you?

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 10 September 2014 - 07:46 AM.

[Dark Jackal]

Malleus011, on 10 September 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

They've tracked our purchases, and should be able to grant MC refunds if they wished.

Personally, I wish they'd drop the MC prices for 'mechs to the '50% off sale' prices, and leave them there. Have sales for colors and cockpit junk if you must, but price the 'mechs more reasonably. 20$ for a medium hero is a bit steep.

I feel the same with regards to 20 dollar 'Mechs. I've been on the fence for those and simply do not see enough value for what you get. I also prefer a similar level of price drop rather than tweaking benefit values to keep them there at the current price. It was pretty much the same thing with Premium Time which I still don't feel is a good buy-option as a stand alone product.

[Dark Jackal]

WM Quicksilver, on 10 September 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

You must be a lawyer,

And here is where I stop. Why do you care who or what I am?

You really need to do some self-thinking if you really want to be effective on what you set out to do. If the issue is customer service, then there are simply better ways to come across to the provider (PGI) to have your voice heard. If the issue is about milking cows or whales, whatever, then really I have no further discussion with you on the matter.

It's the Voice of the Customer!