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Ecm: A Dialogue?


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#481 Zordicron

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 05:21 PM

Well, I only read a small bit of this thread, I get annoyed when the bile and angry rants start up and it forces me to super skim.

That said, thanks Russ for this fresh step forward in communication with the players, and I feel your pain reading the rant-y posts mixed in with the decent ones.

ON ECM: I think LRM function must be included with an ECm change, as in large, that is the main function of ECM in game currently. I think in order to expand what is possible to do with ECM and all the info warfare, LRM function needs some alteration.

With that, I do not think the alteration is earth shattering, and in general I would start in small steps, and make some kind of semi-scheduled road map for the ECM wherein there is "X" amount of time of data collection and feedback between changes/tweaks/ etc as the ideal is honed. SO then:

Step one- LRM change: make indirect fire inferior to LOS fire by a large margin. To do this, change the spread. LOS fire, functions as current. Indirect fire- make that spread massive, for instance you fire a LRM 20 at a target that is only shared by "built in C3", that LRM20 should be like a carpet bomb, missiles in a very large area on impact. This does two things-

It makes indirect fire vs a lone mech very innefficient for heat and dmg and ammo usage. Thus, LOS fire(more risk) is vastly superior.
Second, it introduces another form of LRM fire, wherein firing on a blobed up camper squad will result in decent dmg(though spread amongst numerous targets) which can encourage camping boredom squads to move and be active. Like a mini Arty strike, but more controled, with less dmg output but not the hard limit of one consumed per match.

Now that LOS fireing is so much superior to indirect, we can do a few more things:

TAG and NARC can negate, or partially negate(whatever makes sense) the spread effect of indirect fire. This is because someone spent tonnage and risk to spot the target with more then pressing R. This is in itself an info warfare, and should have enough benefit that even pug players feel using the tons for that equipment will pay off. LOS TAG and NARC would remain as current.

By tweaking the spread, and negation of said spread by TAG and NARC, we alter how the LRM boat plays enough that it opens some opportunity to ECM. Now that it's primary function doesnt need to be "invisibility cloak for LRM" it can be expanded.

Now, this expansion could be many things, maybe the number of mechs that have an ECM hardpoint could expand, so more ECM is on the field, which in turn allows teams to not deathblob quite so much(currently alomst required in PUGS to avoid missiles fire while moveing). This would be because indirect fire on a small group of mobile mechs would be largely inneffective, while purposeful spotting weith TAG/NARC currently negates ECM anyway, and direct fire(weapons I mean-edit) has never been overly affected by LOS ECM or not. So by reducing indirect fire LRM, we now have ECM in a position where it is negated by being actively spotted, negated by all LOS direct fire. This as a whole SHOULD greatly reduce the feeling players have of massing up on the DDC for the bubble, once spread range etc has been dialed in.

Another way it could expand, is to become more active- with the "required LRM negation bubble" now altered, we could look at other things, like making it so ECM carrying mech can switch to disrupt mode, and target an opponent- said opponent has radar jammed(and targetting ability) in return, ECM bubble is removed(like, PBAOE effect VS single target effect, you have to pick one or the other) Jam mode could get somthing similar, where the bubble effect could be toggled with a more powerful(as in, cuts double ECM coverage or something) single target effect.

Furthermore, an active BAP could also utilize something like this, PBAOE vs targeted counter.

Those type of changes put control of the counters, or at least potency and targets of the counter, into the players hands. Very favorable to an INFO warfare type play, it creates a semi-role for players wanting to use it.

When ECM is removed as the primary counter to LRM fire(and replaced by mobility and cover because indirect LRM fire has been spread out) we could look at ways ECM could assist players against direct fire also. No, not by some kind of magic bullet shield- somthing more subtle. Imagine you have ECm on your mech, and an enemy spots you - ECM wont help you. but say it is countered instead, and enemy can actually target you- what if ECM shifted the enemy target box(red square) so it wasnt centered on your mech? Suddenly ECM, even countered, has a way to at least help very slightly against long range snipe type fire, as enemy player cant just put the crosshair on the middle of the red box(even if he cant hardly make out your mech, hence camo would actually be useful at longer ranges as logic would say it should function) Possibly, this "shift" function could apply to team mates under the ecm bubble, even if they have been spotted also. That could be tweaked in.



I think there is a lot of possibility for ECm and info warfare to be crafted into MWO. However, I also think it completely relies on indirect LRM fire getting changed into a large AOE spread to remove the effectiveness of LRM boat/turret-mechs that arent actually actively targeting or, well, doing anything but locking on red boxes and letting fly. Otherwise, if we leave that megablob LRM boat function alone, and remove ECM's current ability as a fairly hard counter to it, we will see LRMAGGEDON again.

So, unfortunatly Russ, IMO there is no "just ECM" fix for this, i think if you want to craft up a solid info warfare system for MWO, you need to make LOS fire superior(with purposeful targetting thorugh TAG and NARC also) by far to the indirect missile spam.

(apologies for aweful spelling and such, I dont have the time or energy after mandatory 9 hours of overtime today, lol I hope this post makes sense when I am done)

Edited by Eldagore, 13 September 2014 - 05:26 PM.


#482 A banana in the tailpipe

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 05:23 PM

View PostRuss Bullock, on 13 September 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

I don't understand what this has to do with statement. I was simply saying I can now do something like this, a week earlier I could not.


I for one am glad you have more creative control, because since 2012 I've never seen you use it so I'm eager to see what you can do now. Your first instincts to reach out the community are admirable and kudos to you for that. If only these "focus groups" didn't seem focused at the elitist blowhards of the forums/game. What you need is diversity son, as anyone can be dedicated but generally this game attracts those that all think a certain way (damn jar heads). What needs to happen is bring in community devs who work on their own independent projects that can advise you for free because they are loyal to the IP. Easier said than done I'm sure, but it's a lot better than letting some "forum mouthpiece" dictate how the game should be run for his close buddies.

#483 zortesh

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 05:29 PM

Honestly the ecm countering lrms as they do is fine, if narcs had less wonky hit detection it wouldn't matter atall.

Its the crippling communication in pugs, you can't report enemy positions by typing very effectively, and maybe 40% of players never read the chat anyways, if we could throw down some sortof marker quickly at where ever our cursor is pointed it'd matter alot less, sure i can uav, but that costs cbills and requires me to be close.

It'd add alot to the information warfare if peeps could hit a button and a marker for lance/company/lone mech would appear on map.

And ecm does affect more then lrms, on comms called targets matter very littler when the enemy has overwhelming ecm and noone can see the letters.

Edited by zortesh, 13 September 2014 - 05:30 PM.


#484 A banana in the tailpipe

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 05:32 PM

How about Betty give a different warning for NARC? "such as.... " System acting erratically. Sensors unable to detect anything. Internal matrix nullified."

#485 DocBach

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 05:36 PM

View Postlockwoodx, on 13 September 2014 - 05:32 PM, said:

How about Betty give a different warning for NARC? "such as.... " System acting erratically. Sensors unable to detect anything. Internal matrix nullified."


Well that sounds cool and all, it doesn't really make much sense and combat messages should be clear and concise. A more simple and to the point warning like "NARC SIGNAL DETECTED" letting you know you've been NARC'd could get the point across much simpler.

#486 A banana in the tailpipe

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 05:39 PM

View PostDocBach, on 13 September 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:


Well that sounds cool and all, it doesn't really make much sense and combat messages should be clear and concise. A more simple and to the point warning like "NARC SIGNAL DETECTED" letting you know you've been NARC'd could get the point across much simpler.


I agree "simpler" is better for the daft... (or pug) but I simply tried to add some flavor to the broth.

What would really be awesome is if while NARCED your cockpit lights flickered from high to low and back, while it randomly switched you between thermal, night, and regular vision modes. Imagine the chaos that would create on a hot map blinding the opponent? Bwhahahahahaa

Edited by lockwoodx, 13 September 2014 - 05:39 PM.


#487 DocBach

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 05:41 PM

Again, in combat, you want messages to be quick, concise and easy to understand. When you are being shot at you don't want to have to decipher through fluff to get to the meat of the message. I doubt this would change in the 31st Century.

#488 Zordicron

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 05:41 PM

View Postlockwoodx, on 13 September 2014 - 05:32 PM, said:

How about Betty give a different warning for NARC? "such as.... " System acting erratically. Sensors unable to detect anything. Internal matrix nullified."

I would like some kind of indication you have been NARC'd. Right now, you dont know until Betty starts non-stop incoming missiles. Even somthing as simple as "System anomaly detected" would be fine.

I also wanted to elaborate on that LRM spread, i thought of a good example/comparison-

Think about how Arty strikes affect an enemy team You drop a strike onto an enemy group, if they react to the smoke or not, doesnt matter, be it during smoke or during explod-y time, the enemy blob scatters. Sure, it isnt permanent, they can always regroup, but it does the trick at least for a bit.

now imagine a missile boat carpet bombing them for a while. They will spread, I dont think the most try-hard"LRMS are suxx" player would just stand and eat the dmg forever(even if it is minor and spread all about his mech). So we create this ability for LRM mechs to disperse crowds, and encourage more spread out teams.

IMO, this is needed in game anyway, and balanceing Arty to function in that role has been tricky to say the least. The fact it fits perfectly into pretty much any ECM change(because the current ECM bubble mechanic is black and white to many) is a MEGABONUS. As i wrote earlier, spreading out the camperboredom squad lets ECM bubble get altered in numerous ways because it isnt required to counter mass LRM death rains anymore.

Edit: here is another thought-

To further encourage people to stop bubble-herding, set up ECM to "Max friendly target=3" or somthing. Suddenly, ECM is a fickle friend. Sure, you could lump up 4 ECM mechs and keep the whole team together. Until ONE mech takes a narc or tag, or gets a locust running by with a BAP, and then LRM carpet bombs disperse the crowd anyway. Now that ECM bubble is only covering your lance(or equivolent) the idea of using it actively for a single target hard radar/target counter has more weight. I think I forgot to mention that ST mode would have a much greater range(also tweakable) compared ot tha standard umbrella we have now.

Edited by Eldagore, 13 September 2014 - 05:48 PM.


#489 A banana in the tailpipe

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 05:43 PM

View PostDocBach, on 13 September 2014 - 05:41 PM, said:

Again, in combat, you want messages to be quick, concise and easy to understand. When you are being shot at you don't want to have to decipher through fluff to get to the meat of the message. I doubt this would change in the 31st Century.


They still have reticle shake while you use JJs in the 31st century so anything's possible. ;) (oh wait that's just MWO's horrible FPS balance and has nothing to do with a simulation)

Edited by lockwoodx, 13 September 2014 - 05:45 PM.


#490 Livebait

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 06:03 PM

I'm very glad to see that Russ is actually reading and posting this weekend. It gives me hope. :D So i'll take this opportunity to say a few things.

First, your game is not horrible! Just not as fun to play as we would like. I think the ECM rework is a good step. Keep in mind other systems will need TWEAKING (not nerfing or buffing in ungodly ways) as well.

Second, maps need to be much BIGGER with several OBJECTIVE points to actually use the whole map and reduce the giant mech blobs moving to the same old places to sit and hunker down for the LRM storms. C-bills can be earned by going to the objective points and doing what needs to be done.

Third, conquest is not fun sitting in a square picking your nose for five minutes for the thing to change color.

Lastly, TT rules are a good start to figure things out. And thanks again for trying to make Mechwarrior a part of a new generations lives. :)

#491 Cimarb

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 06:07 PM

View PostLivebait, on 13 September 2014 - 06:03 PM, said:

I'm very glad to see that Russ is actually reading and posting this weekend. It gives me hope. :D So i'll take this opportunity to say a few things.

First, your game is not horrible! Just not as fun to play as we would like. I think the ECM rework is a good step. Keep in mind other systems will need TWEAKING (not nerfing or buffing in ungodly ways) as well.

Second, maps need to be much BIGGER with several OBJECTIVE points to actually use the whole map and reduce the giant mech blobs moving to the same old places to sit and hunker down for the LRM storms. C-bills can be earned by going to the objective points and doing what needs to be done.

Third, conquest is not fun sitting in a square picking your nose for five minutes for the thing to change color.

Lastly, TT rules are a good start to figure things out. And thanks again for trying to make Mechwarrior a part of a new generations lives. :)

That has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. Please stay on topic.

#492 Mystere

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 06:11 PM

View Postlockwoodx, on 13 September 2014 - 05:32 PM, said:

How about Betty give a different warning for NARC? "such as.... " System acting erratically. Sensors unable to detect anything. Internal matrix nullified."


Frankly, I want less hand-holding and more tools for team communications. I could just as well shout over comms "Sparky, you've just been NARCed!".

#493 Livebait

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 06:25 PM

View PostCimarb, on 13 September 2014 - 06:07 PM, said:

That has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. Please stay on topic.

I'm I. I just embellished...

#494 Scratx

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 06:31 PM

You know what.

Much of the talk here is how ECM as it is keeps LRMs in check. Or so it seems.

So, if we get in an alternative mechanic to rein LRMs against ECM'ed mechs that doesn't simply completely lock LRMs out, will you be happy with it?


Here's my suggestion.

Against mechs under ECM cover (the eye icon), for every fraction of a second any LRMs that are in flight and the launching platform does not have Line of Sight ( Indirect fire!!! ), there is a chance that the LRM will simply veer off in a random direction, effectively missing the target.

This would mean the further away the target under ECM cover is, the smaller a proportion of indirect fired LRMs will actually reach the target.

And then there is AMS to mop up the missiles that actually arrived.

Suddenly, AMS sounds like an awesome option to have around, too, doesn't it?

This would not hinder LRM boats that acquire their own targets, but then, that's fine isn't it?

Naturally, TAG and/or NARC would prevent the veering off, too. But that's also fine, isn't it? Somebody's taking/taken a chance to use/place those things to light up the target.

What do you think?

#495 Mystere

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 06:41 PM

View PostScratx, on 13 September 2014 - 06:31 PM, said:

Against mechs under ECM cover (the eye icon), for every fraction of a second any LRMs that are in flight and the launching platform does not have Line of Sight ( Indirect fire!!! ), there is a chance that the LRM will simply veer off in a random direction, effectively missing the target.


I'd change that a bit. Instead of the LRMs veering off, I'd rather they tracked to the target's original position. This ensures that the target still has to move if it wants to avoid the missiles.

#496 Scratx

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 06:49 PM

View PostMystere, on 13 September 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:


I'd change that a bit. Instead of the LRMs veering off, I'd rather they tracked to the target's original position. This ensures that the target still has to move if it wants to avoid the missiles.


I don't see a problem with that. The basic idea can be summed up as "ECM acts as a proportional attritioner against incoming indirect fire LRM salvos", I think. Whether the LRMs should veer off or just lose lock and go hit the "last known position of target" is not something I'm going to argue over at this stage. :)


Edit : Though on second thought there is much more value on the missiles veering off early. If they don't, they still add volume against AMS umbrellas, pushing against active defenses and letting more, actually guided, missiles through.

Edited by Scratx, 13 September 2014 - 06:54 PM.


#497 BlakeAteIt

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 07:07 PM

But the AMS is unlikely to shoot all of the missiles anyway, so either way the same amount of ammo is used. You might sneak an extra missile per salvo in with the late veering, but providing an incentive to move seems worth it.

#498 Cimarb

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 07:09 PM

View PostScratx, on 13 September 2014 - 06:31 PM, said:

You know what.

Much of the talk here is how ECM as it is keeps LRMs in check. Or so it seems.

So, if we get in an alternative mechanic to rein LRMs against ECM'ed mechs that doesn't simply completely lock LRMs out, will you be happy with it?


Here's my suggestion.

Against mechs under ECM cover (the eye icon), for every fraction of a second any LRMs that are in flight and the launching platform does not have Line of Sight ( Indirect fire!!! ), there is a chance that the LRM will simply veer off in a random direction, effectively missing the target.

This would mean the further away the target under ECM cover is, the smaller a proportion of indirect fired LRMs will actually reach the target.

And then there is AMS to mop up the missiles that actually arrived.

Suddenly, AMS sounds like an awesome option to have around, too, doesn't it?

This would not hinder LRM boats that acquire their own targets, but then, that's fine isn't it?

Naturally, TAG and/or NARC would prevent the veering off, too. But that's also fine, isn't it? Somebody's taking/taken a chance to use/place those things to light up the target.

What do you think?

If you have ever ran an LRM boat regularly, you would understand that getting a lock on a mech in an ECM umbrella is impossible without a TAG/NARC/UAV, or an ally keeping a lock on them within 180 meters. In addition, the extended lock-on time, even if you DO have a dedicated spotter, makes it very difficult to successfully hit the ECM mech.

#499 Ertur

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 07:10 PM

I don't understand the "ECM is too OP" argument. I've run LRMs, I've run direct fire/brawlers. ECM doesn't matter at all unless you have LRMs or streaks. With streaks, I always carry BAP; byebye ECM. I saw one suggestion here, "Hey BAP should counter ECM." It does already. :rolleyes:
LRM boats can counter ECM with TAG or NARC. PPCs disable ECM. There's lots of ways to deal with ECM. It does not need any nerfs.

#500 DocBach

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 07:13 PM

View PostErtur, on 13 September 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

I don't understand the "ECM is too OP" argument. I've run LRMs, I've run direct fire/brawlers. ECM doesn't matter at all unless you have LRMs or streaks. With streaks, I always carry BAP; byebye ECM. I saw one suggestion here, "Hey BAP should counter ECM." It does already. :rolleyes:
LRM boats can counter ECM with TAG or NARC. PPCs disable ECM. There's lots of ways to deal with ECM. It does not need any nerfs.

Quick question, if you could put ECM on every mech, would you?





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