632 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

What about new players leveling up catapults who don't have the Gxp or cbills to sink into the three counters you mentioned? Should the new player experience be as unfriendly as to completely invalidate a weapon based on a mechanic that isn't explained at all in the tutorial?

[Mystere]

DocBach, on 14 September 2014 - 05:31 AM, said:

What about new players leveling up catapults who don't have the Gxp or cbills to sink into the three counters you mentioned? Should the new player experience be as unfriendly as to completely invalidate a weapon based on a mechanic that isn't explained at all in the tutorial?

Frankly, new players should be taught to bring mixed load outs as soon as possible ... among other things (e.g. ECM tutorial).

And so again, I think dealing with the new player experience -- among other things -- is more important than dealing with ECM. The former is obviously currently being used as an excuse for a number of things.

Here's a question: Even if ECM -- and information warfare in general -- is given the absolute perfect implementation, how will the new player know about it?

Edited by Mystere, 14 September 2014 - 05:51 AM.

[stjobe]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 14 September 2014 - 05:26 AM, said:

You know, you do not HAVE to mount LRMs in every mech. What about SRMs? Yes, you are a frontline mech now... and?

I believe we've both been here long enough to remember both the StreakCats and SplatCats, but this isn't about those, so please stop deflecting.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 14 September 2014 - 05:26 AM, said:

- Adv. Sensor Range + BAP

That's an awfully small window of engagement there, and a really short minimum- AND maximum range for something called Long Range Missiles.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 14 September 2014 - 05:26 AM, said:

- UAV

Sure, for 30 seconds per match. How many LRMs can you fire in 30 seconds? Better make them count, because that's all you get to do.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 14 September 2014 - 05:26 AM, said:

- NARC

30 seconds per target, coupled with the issues of having to hit something with a direct-fire missile before using your indirect-fire missiles (which incidentally also is a problem with your "just mount a TAG" stance).

Meanwhile, a PPC, a large laser, a SRM, and an AC is firing away happily completely unaffected by enemy ECM.

PGI made ECM as an anti-LRM system which it is absolutely not intended to be in BattleTech; that's the bottom of the issue. As long as people insist on keeping it an anti-LRM system we're never going to have balance either for LRMs or for ECM.

Divorce the two and balance them separately; it's the only way to achieve balance.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

DocBach, on 14 September 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3720589

The general approach is good, but the numbers need a little more tweaking. An Assault with ECM completely lock-on-able with LRMs at 700m is... well, too far away.

I'd say: Assault without ECM and and enemy mech without anything: 800m
Assault with ECM: 400m for LRM-lock. For more range, you need adv. sensor range, BAP etc

Imagine, you have an LRM boat equipped with BAP and adv. sensor range and you can fire on a slow Atlas D-DC from 800m even if he is under ECM ... thats a bit too much of the good.
So, what about we define some border cases (Lights/Assaults - with and without ECM) and find the rest in between from there on?

[JHackworth]

IanSane, on 12 September 2014 - 04:37 PM, said:

What the devs should do and what I would like to see after this great first step is simple. Once they have gotten their suggestions on the forums for changes they should put it to a vote THROUGH and WITHIN the game so folks who do NOT come to the forums often can have a say and we get a TRUE representation of the player base not just the opinions of those of us in the forums.

So players are now experienced game designers as well now?

[Túatha Dé Danann]

stjobe, on 14 September 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

Divorce the two and balance them separately; it's the only way to achieve balance.

Exactly! We are on the same page on this one. Still, LRMs stay a low risk weapon, so they shall reap low benefits. If you want to see them used more often and more reliable, then:
- Reduce their speed
- Let them spread more
- Lower their DPS

Being able to hit a target without exposing has to come at a cost, esp. if the weapons are target tracking and the user does not need ANY kind of aiming skill. So it should be possible for the receiving side to:
- Evade
- Shoot the LRMs down

AMS is in my opinion a little weak right now. 5 missiles per AMS is just a little to few to be effective. 7-8 would be nicer.

Edited by Túatha Dé Danann, 14 September 2014 - 06:00 AM.

[DocBach]

The numbers were specific as ECM is not suppose to be a stealth system, or a complete anti missile system -- 800m is still 200m from Lrm max range. The largest mech in the game should be easy to detect if he ignores cover and concealment by moving through an open danger area. However, lighter mechs within his shield will remain undetected.

[Mordin Ashe]

Tuatha de Danne, sorry but you have no idea about either LRMs or ECM. What you propose would make LRMs even less competitive and you should feel bad about posting such things into thread that should stay as clean as possible because important things may be posted and ignored. If you think LRMs will be fine, lets imagine whether anyone would pick them up after your changes. You certainly would not.

Regarding ECM, why do they have to reduce detection? It was never supposed to do that, only sensors in passive mode should do that. Generate random "ghost" units, that would be a nice substitute for this while bubble if invincibility thing - get the ghost marks comming and get rid of invisibility and inability to lock and target Mechs within the bubble.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

stjobe, on 14 September 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

I believe we've both been here long enough to remember both the StreakCats and SplatCats, but this isn't about those, so please stop deflecting.

I just wanted to show, that you are not dependent on those LRMs. Just because every beginner uses them does not mean, that every beginner should use them. I don't see any LRMs in a 12-man match, for multiple reasons. Even if ECM is not in the game, you won't see LRMs being used, but a massive amount of AMS in return and then direct fire weapons with more DPS than any LRM could create.

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That's an awfully small window of engagement there, and a really short minimum- AND maximum range for something called Long Range Missiles.

You are on the frontline now. Together with the brawlers. Welcome to the normal game. You can get shot in the face as well as your buddies. But don't worry, you are now of use for the team.

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Sure, for 30 seconds per match. How many LRMs can you fire in 30 seconds? Better make them count, because that's all you get to do.

Biased. How many LRMs can your TEAM fire in 30 seconds. Plus: You priotize on the ECM mechs. After they are down, you do not have the problem of ECM anymore. If you do not fire on ECM mech, you made a mistake and deserve the consequence. 30s are more than enough to bring down any ECM-Mech, even an Atlas.

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30 seconds per target, coupled with the issues of having to hit something with a direct-fire missile before using your indirect-fire missiles (which incidentally also is a problem with your "just mount a TAG" stance).

So you look at the enemy after having fired your NARC? Well, I don't. I fire my NARC and go back into cover and fire my LRMs from there. Its like Jumpsniping, only for LRMs.

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Meanwhile, a PPC, a large laser, a SRM, and an AC is firing away happily completely unaffected by enemy ECM.

Right, but they have to expose themselves and can also get shot by: PPCs, Large Lasers, SRMs, ACs. More risk, more benefit.

[Duke Nedo]

Have only read a fraction, but I like the proposal borrowing some stuff from EVE.

That is, each chassi/variant has a Signature Radius and each chassi/variant has a Sensor Strength. The relation between them determines if the target mech is spotted or not.

I'd like if ecm would quite strongly modify Signature Radius, while BAP and modules would modify Sensor Strength.

I'd also like if all mechs had Active and Passive sensors, that would also modify these two parameters (Active would increase both and Passive would reduce both).

As for LRMs, I think just making the stream of LRMs spread out more when not having line of sight would be a big step towards balancing them. One could allow the large spread version to be guided by tag equipped by oneself for firing in direct sight but without lock.

[stjobe]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 14 September 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

- Reduce their speed

They already take 6.25 seconds to reach max range, how much slower do you want them to be? Incidentally, you get 6.25 seconds of Betty warning along with that.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 14 September 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

- Let them spread more

They already do spread worse when fired indirectly than directly.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 14 September 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

- Lower their DPS

Their current DPS is between 0.62 (LRM 5) and 1.26 (LRM 20). I don't know if they can be lowered any without being rendered completely ineffective except when boated by assaults.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 14 September 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

- Evade

Evasion is, and has always been, possible.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 14 September 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

- Shoot the LRMs down

That's what AMS is for.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 14 September 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

AMS is in my opinion a little weak right now. 5 missiles per AMS is just a little to few to be effective. 7-8 would be nicer.

7-8 out of a salvo from a LRM-5? Please, think before posting.

The problem with LRMs is basically the same problem as with all other weapons in MWO; in order to not make them completely OP while boated, they are reduced to ineffectiveness when taken as single weapons - so people boat them, because that's the only way to use them. And getting hit by 60-90 LRMs is almost as bad as getting hit with a meta-alpha.

I wonder if PGI is ever going to realize that, and if so, do anything (sane) about it.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Mordin Ashe, on 14 September 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:

Tuatha de Danne, sorry but you have no idea about either LRMs or ECM.

A bold imputation. Can I say the same to you? Then we are even.

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What you propose would make LRMs even less competitive

Broadening the ECM effects so that LRM boats can lock on mechs even without TAG/NARC makes them less competitive? WTF?

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and you should feel bad about posting such things into thread

No, you should start reading before making groundless assumptions and attacking people personally over a topic where people try to find a meaningful consent. So either bring in arguments and state your reasons or be silent.

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If you think LRMs will be fine, lets imagine whether anyone would pick them up after your changes. You certainly would not.

I have played LRM boats at the beginning of my time here. Then I found them boring and went over to other stuff, learning other aspects of the game. I could still play LRM-boats, but they do not reap the rewards other setups do. Simply by finding cover I can negate all the firepower of LRM boats. Do you want to nerf cover now?

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Regarding ECM, why do they have to reduce detection? It was never supposed to do that, only sensors in passive mode should do that.

Ask PGI. Many people made better proposals than the actual implemented mechanic. Make your own and wait for the feedback of the community. BTW, nobody likes cheap campers, so good luck with buffing LRMs.

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Generate random "ghost" units, that would be a nice substitute for this while bubble if invincibility thing - get the ghost marks comming and get rid of invisibility and inability to lock and target Mechs within the bubble.

Making spotters totally useless. Yeah, right. You want nuclear warheads for your LRMs too?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Having Docbach and Stjobe in a thread like the old days talking all kinds of sense is nice.

Wish Russ would just listen to the well thought out posts and skip this whole committee council BS.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

stjobe, on 14 September 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

They already take 6.25 seconds to reach max range, how much slower do you want them to be? Incidentally, you get 6.25 seconds of Betty warning along with that.

You said it - max range. I was thinking about something like 6-7% slower, not 50%.

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They already do spread worse when fired indirectly than directly.

And still hit the same region on an assault but miss lights even on full lock. You like that? Really?

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Their current DPS is between 0.62 (LRM 5) and 1.26 (LRM 20). I don't know if they can be lowered any without being rendered completely ineffective except when boated by assaults.

The same should go for the Gauss - long range, high pinpoint but low dps. All the weapons we have right now have a much too compressed DPS value, which makes them nearly interchangable. Thus you see Gauss used like an AC/20 in a brawl as well as LRMs being used in a Brawl too (~250 m), which is pretty bad from a role-warfare point of view.

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Evasion is, and has always been, possible.

Aye, and with nerfing ECM, this becomes the primary source of not getting shot into shreds without the ability to re-fire. Thus the missile speed reduction. Make evasion to compensate by a degree for lowered ECM efficiency. Because right now - you said it, ECM is a hard-counter for LRMs which should not be the case.

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That's what AMS is for.

Which is currently used again boats. Thats why we have the 3 AMS kitfox for, right? Because we counter Boats with Boats. Which - you already said is, is bad design.

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7-8 out of a salvo from a LRM-5? Please, think before posting.

So what do your propose as anti-boating mechanic? A stream of LRMs like we have for clans? What do you do against LRM-80-ish boats beside standing behind cover an wait for you pizza to be delivered? Imagine, you have no ECM cover. Right, you do not go out in the open. Everyone stands and camps. And in open maps... you just die.

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The problem with LRMs is basically the same problem as with all other weapons in MWO; in order to not make them completely OP while boated, they are reduced to ineffectiveness when taken as single weapons - so people boat them, because that's the only way to use them. And getting hit by 60-90 LRMs is almost as bad as getting hit with a meta-alpha.

Totally correct.

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I wonder if PGI is ever going to realize that, and if so, do anything (sane) about it.

Thats why we discuss it, right? To find a solution - beside some attention-whores here and there trying to troll.

[Mcgral18]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 14 September 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:

Right, but they have to expose themselves and can also get shot by: PPCs, Large Lasers, SRMs, ACs. More risk, more benefit.

Hey, those guys have ECM! I'll just use my handy TAG to designate them!

Oh look, I'm exposed! But I can't be allowed to direct fire my sluggish missiles, because the bads would cry OP.


Your logic simply doesn't work. If you have TAG, you have to expose yourself to use it. Then you start whining about not having to expose yourself when you use LRMs.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

DocBach, on 14 September 2014 - 06:00 AM, said:

The numbers were specific as ECM is not suppose to be a stealth system, or a complete anti missile system -- 800m is still 200m from Lrm max range. The largest mech in the game should be easy to detect if he ignores cover and concealment by moving through an open danger area. However, lighter mechs within his shield will remain undetected.

Aye. An assault mech without ECM in the open at 800m is totally valid. But not WITH ECM. Just 100m less for having ECM is too shallow. I guess, that if ECM would halve the sensor-lock-on ranges, it would be a good percentage, with a slight modifier for lights, which may get up to 66% - or we take the approach and say, that the ECM efficiency is linked to the reactor core, as an ECM system consumes a lot of energy.

This way, you could approach the whole thing from two sides: Stealth and cover. Stealth means, you are not easy to detect (lights) while cover means that you may get detected, but your ECM is so strong, that the lock-on is very hard to get and may be lost before you get any LRM-lock on. Staying in LOS in the open will - on the other hand - always bring missiles on the way, as it is supposed to be.

So yeah, in general I like your proposal, but it needs more factors to be accounted for. Do you spot for yourself or do you have a spotter doing the work for you is one possible aspect - as already mentioned. So, if we say we have "Ghost targets" - meanig target information relayed from other mechs, the sensor lock should be way weaker than the lock you would get if you spot yourself, maybe even leading to the situation that you only have a soft lock getting the position of a mech, but not enough data to get a lock for your LRMs/Streaks.

One idea could be a sensor level. Depending on range, equipment, LOS, active/passive spotting and active/passive radar status of the enemy, ECM, BAP, Adv. Sensor modules etc, you get a certain % of sensor lock. From 0 - 25% you do not get any information, not even a soft lock. From 26% to 50% you get a soft lock, from 51% to 75% you get a hard-lock, with reduced efficiency for your target tracking systems and reaching 100% will gradually increasing your tracking systems up to the point where you screen a mech, even finding out weak spots, how hot he is, where the ammo lies etc.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Mcgral18, on 14 September 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

Hey, those guys have ECM! I'll just use my handy TAG to designate them!

Oh look, I'm exposed! But I can't be allowed to direct fire my sluggish missiles, because the bads would cry OP.


Your logic simply doesn't work. If you have TAG, you have to expose yourself to use it. Then you start whining about not having to expose yourself when you use LRMs.

Mate, I play Brawlers 90% of the time. I don't care about LRMs, I don't care about ECM and I don't care about all the whining. If I see an LRM-boat, I approach it under cover and brawl it to death. If I cannot find cover on the way, I stay in my own cover and wait for the Boat to be out of ammo. Or order a pizza. Whatever.

1. You do not get a lock-on if nobody spots for you.
2. Even if the enemy does not have ECM, you won't get a lock without a spotter. You still have to expose yourself
3. You need TAG to lock on targets in your LOS if the enemy has ECM

This is the current situation. So your point is?

[Mcgral18]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 14 September 2014 - 06:52 AM, said:

Mate, I play Brawlers 90% of the time. I don't care about LRMs, I don't care about ECM and I don't care about all the whining. If I see an LRM-boat, I approach it under cover and brawl it to death. If I cannot find cover on the way, I stay in my own cover and wait for the Boat to be out of ammo. Or order a pizza. Whatever.

1. You do not get a lock-on if nobody spots for you.
2. Even if the enemy does not have ECM, you won't get a lock without a spotter. You still have to expose yourself
3. You need TAG to lock on targets in your LOS if the enemy has ECM

This is the current situation. So your point is?

Magic Jesus Box does affect brawlers too. Target info gathering, one of the most important things out there.


So, you don't care about LRMs, since you don't use them. You want them to be useless because you don't want to get hit by them? That's why you're so anti LRM.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Anti-LRM. so trying to find a balance for high-risk-high-reward-and-low-risk-low-reward makes anyone an anti-LRM. rofl
Listen to yourself man.

An no, If I'm under the enemies ECM-umbrella I can still lock on to my target and brawl them to death. To be honest, I never use adv. Target info gathering, because I just go for the CT or stay on a side torso when I know the enemy got an XL. You still get your data on the enemy mech, as the brawl takes longer than 2 seconds. So no, I have no problems with ECM. Maybe you should brawl more.

And for the "Anti-LRM-roflcopter" you just delivered: Low risk, low reward. You want low risk-high reward. Then I want to have my AC/20 to have a dps of 20 instead of 5. How does that sound?

Edited by Túatha Dé Danann, 14 September 2014 - 07:26 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 14 September 2014 - 07:26 AM, said:

Anti-LRM. so trying to find a balance for high-risk-high-reward-and-low-risk-low-reward makes anyone an anti-LRM. rofl
Listen to yourself man.

An no, If I'm under the enemies ECM-umbrella I can still lock on to my target and brawl them to death. To be honest, I never use adv. Target info gathering, because I just go for the CT or stay on a side torso when I know the enemy got an XL. You still get your data on the enemy mech, as the brawl takes longer than 2 seconds. So no, I have no problems with ECM. Maybe you should brawl more.

And for the "Anti-LRM-roflcopter" you just delivered: Low risk, low reward. You want low risk-high reward. Then I want to have my AC/20 to have a dps of 20 instead of 5. How does that sound?

How about we list what's wrong with ECM, since obviously you're too much of a bad to realise how useless LRMs can be.

They are some of the worst weapons in the game, largely because of ECM, and the slow as balls travel speed which doesn't even allow you to direct fire them effectively. Under a bridge? NOPE.

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Let's see what ECM does:

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The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.[2]

Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming.

The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.[3] Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal.[4]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Guardian_ECM

I'll just highlight this part:

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Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal.

Angel ECM can indeed stop Streaks from firing guided missiles, at two tons and two crits.



Stealth armour:

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The finest achievement in stealth systems developed by the original Star League, the Null Signature System was capable of shielding a BattleMech from electronic detection.

BattleMech Stealth Armor provides as much protection as standard armor. It takes up two critical slots in each arm, leg, and side torso. To work, it also requires the 'Mech to carry a Guardian ECM Suite.[1]

The system can be activated or deactivated in the End Phase of any turn. When active the system builds up 10 heat points, and is affected as if it is in range of an enemy ECM Suite. Any unit attacking a BattleMech with active Stealth Armor gets a +1 hit penalty at medium range and a +2 hit penalty at long range. The Stealth Armored BattleMech cannot be a secondary target while the system is active.[6]

http://www.sarna.net.../Stealth_Armour



Guess what Magic Jesus Box does...without any extra crits, tons, or heat? For the small package of 1.5 tons, it even blocks lvl1 LRMs, which it simply shouldn't.

A rework would be nice, though calling for changes to indirect fire is reasonable. Perhaps a larger spread and worse tracking, to simulate the to hit penalty of indirect fire.

Look at those items that Magic Jesus Box does, that has nothing to do with Guardian ECM. Look at the penalties that gECM does not have. Look at the tiny cost of 2 crits and 1.5 tons.


Please, tell me how Magic Jesus Box is alright.