119 replies to this topic

[Tezcatli]

WM Quicksilver, on 11 September 2014 - 05:13 PM, said:

I wouldn't say that.
We have been down this road before, pretty much every time there has been a massive controversy, communication is massively improved for a short time. The problem is that it never lasted and the status quo never changed. Regardless of whether IGP was the problem before (because PGI hasnt used a scapegoat before ) they have to prove it with their actions, and they simply haven't had time for anyone to say one way or the other.

They have talked the talk, now many of us are just waiting for them to walk.

They have been updating us with things before all this controversy started. In regards to Clan balance. Their change of servers. And other things that they've asked for feedback on.

It's not like other companies stick a camera over the shoulder of their devs and give a play by play of what they're working on. When I was playing WoW, I was always on the prowl for info, usually it was just minor tweaks to an ability and it wasn't anything worth mentioning half the time. They do listen to these forums. I've seen changes get made in response to things and then they get flamed for listening to the forum.

I really do not think any level of communication will be enough for you. They can't keep updating people with "We're closer now, then we were a week ago to this."

I'm simply content to get an update with new changes, additions, and fixes. That's exactly what they give us now. I mean it would be cool if they could give us some in progress pics of them working on stuff. But that's just fluff.

Edited by Tezcatli, 11 September 2014 - 05:51 PM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 September 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

lololololol

Niko gets hired, people rejoice, the "peoples Mod" is in the seat.

Actually does his job, people want his head. Priceless.

If it's not Russ, it's Niko.... They always want someone's head in the guillotine...

Don't worry employees of PGI. You aren't doing a good job if at least some people don't like you.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tezcatli, on 11 September 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

They have been updating us with things before all this controversy started. In regards to Clan balance. Their change of servers. And other things that they've asked for feedback on.

Like how they just dropped the Clan ERLL changes into Live Environment rather than using the Test server as an intermediate and only a days notice before changes went live; I will note Im not exactly sure on the time between the patch and the post but couldve sworn it was dropped with pretty much no warning after the 10 v 12 test.
They have notified us of some things, but not much more than the past. As for the changes in server, they have generally been good about server outages like the one time in CB that their AC or something stopped working in the server room.

As for feedback, they have always created feedback threads asking for input from players, the problem have always been that even the most rational suggestions are ignored for whatever they planned in the first place, until 2 years later.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 11 September 2014 - 06:14 PM.

[Tezcatli]

WM Quicksilver, on 11 September 2014 - 06:07 PM, said:

Like how they just dropped the Clan ERLL changes into Live Environment rather than using the Test server as an intermediate and only a days notice before changes went live; I will note Im not exactly sure on the time between the patch and the post but couldve sworn it was dropped with pretty much no warning after the 10 v 12 test.
They have notified us of somethings, but not much more than the past. As for the changes in server, they have generally been good about server outages like the one time in CB that their AC or something stopped working in the server room.

As for feedback, they have always created feedback threads asking for input from players, the problem have always been that even the most rational suggestions are ignored for whatever they planned in the first place, until 2 years later.

They can't really test server every change that comes through the game. Especially as the only way to get enough people on them is shutdown the regular server. It's not unheard of for companies to make changes without taking them to a public test server. Usually it takes them 2 weeks to make changes in the game unless it's an easy hotfix. So they would have to add more time before a change could go in. Instead of just putting it in. Getting a wide feedback and changing it accordingly. Which is pretty much what happened with the Clan ER large laser change. They partially reverted the duration change and made other changes instead. And clearly that change was the basis for the changes to all of the Clan lasers.

Suggestions, though they may be good, I've made a few. We can't honestly expect them to use every good suggestion that comes across the forums. I've read so many good ideas. Short of asking that they acknowledge every good idea, I don't see a fix to this dilemma.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tezcatli, on 11 September 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

They can't really test server every change that comes through the game. Especially as the only way to get enough people on them is shutdown the regular server. It's not unheard of for companies to make changes without taking them to a public test server. Usually it takes them 2 weeks to make changes in the game unless it's an easy hotfix. So they would have to add more time before a change could go in. Instead of just putting it in. Getting a wide feedback and changing it accordingly. Which is pretty much what happened with the Clan ER large laser change. They partially reverted the duration change and made other changes instead. And clearly that change was the basis for the changes to all of the Clan lasers.

Its pretty standard practice for software companies to push EVERY change into the test environment (whether it be public or private) before pushing to the live environment.

As for being the basis for the changes to all Clan lasers, again, feedback stated that only the Clan ERML needed to be nerfed slightly, not all the rest, but once again, they listened to none of the feedback and went ahead and did what they were going to do and have yet to undo pointless nerfs.

[Apnu]

Thrillho, on 11 September 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

For many people this is literally all this is about. I don't know what happened with Niko. I don't much care. I avoided these forums like a plague when I was still playing this game. But these glaring missteps in game design were the original problems that led to these forums being over modded.

A very large section original player base hated those things (or at least the way they were implemented), and what they hated even more was that PGI basically told them to go **** themselves, and put their fingers in their ears whenever anyone criticized those things regardless of the tone of the criticism. That attitude from PGI led directly to the #saveMWO movement that they again ignored.

Yesterday the chickens came home to roost. And it should be obvious by the number of people who came back from a period of inactivity that would have separated them from Niko's shenanigans that the moderation issues were only the tip of a much larger iceberg of basic flaws in game design.

I hope that Russ and Paul will realize this, and right the ship.

But of course for that to happen, they will actually have to admit that they were wrong.

I'm not holding my breath.

I hear you but that's not my point.

I'm not talking about nor am I interested in rehashing old controversies -- everything that's been said has been said. I am talking about improving communication with the player base. I believe that with some communication and a respectful give-and-take, those controversies could have been avoided or at least mitigated.

[Tezcatli]

WM Quicksilver, on 11 September 2014 - 06:55 PM, said:

Its pretty standard practice for software companies to push EVERY change into the test environment (whether it be public or private) before pushing to the live environment.

As for being the basis for the changes to all Clan lasers, again, feedback stated that only the Clan ERML needed to be nerfed slightly, not all the rest, but once again, they listened to none of the feedback and went ahead and did what they were going to do and have yet to undo pointless nerfs.

Except they're simply changing the value of a weapon. That may not warrant a test server.

Clearly they felt strongly enough to balance them across the board. It is their prerogative to balance the game. They can't be expected to get permission from us for everything. And if there's enough outcry against it and the data shows a sharp drop in usage of weapons that, as you say, didn't need the nerf, then maybe we'll see them revert it.

I personally would rather see things change in the game as we go. Then wait for something to pass through the test server. Only to more then likely cause an outcry anyway.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tezcatli, on 11 September 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

Except they're simply changing the value of a weapon. That may not warrant a test server.

Maybe I've been spoiled by 3rd party leagues, but again, this happened with all the mods for MW4. One of which had a league which was administered by the same people developing it (and this was 3-4 people). Every change was documented in the patch notes, and every change had spent about 2 weeks within the test environment which several actively participated in (during those 2 weeks, minor changes/tweaks would occur). I'd like to think it was a healthier game due to that fact.

As for balancing, Im pretty sure they have telemetry to tell them that many changes were not needed, they just are OCD and if they balance one weapon the family, all others have to be 'normalized' and while that is their prerogative, it may not be beneficial to the game to continuously do this only to have to dial it back every single time (not that they have ever fully un-nerfed something).

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 11 September 2014 - 07:24 PM.

[MischiefSC]

I would be hard pressed to find a single thread anywhere on the forums without people dissenting against PGI in some form or fashion, even regular direct criticism of PGI personnel for some decision or another. None of those (us) people get banned. Sometimes you get people who are just flat out trolling or trying to be so asinine that they literally derail any hope of useful discussion/debate/conversation.

Ban the **** out of those people. That's all I've seen, not any sort of wild, wacky out of sort moderation. I get the whole Reddit thing bugs some people; honestly though? Screw Reddit. Don't get me wrong, I spend time there myself on other topics. It's not the official forum of MW:O and the only reason for someone to go there should be to have conversations about MW:O without, well, MW:O official rules, presence or onus. that's fine knock yourself out. It shouldn't be a place for PGI devs to go to post stuff. That should all be here. On Reddit PGI folks are just regular folks like any other poster there and IMO shouldn't be trying to post anything 'official'. Why?

It's not their own official bloody forum.

PGI getting banned from Reddit is, IMO, among the good news we've had lately about MW:O. People want to talk MW:O up or talk it down on Reddit? Great, that's what it's there for. It's a discussion/snark site. Go nuts. That's people being people. This is the official MW:O forum though and it is exactly where PGI should be.

Personally I like how Niko has moderated. Honestly, I find the fact that a lot of people are pissed at him for 'over-moderation' because, well, he banned people for being actively and pointlessly disruptive, is a good thing. **** Reddit. Like you paid it a couple of soiled $20s at a seedy truck stop. Let it go; Reddit will take care of itself, it's not a good forum for a business to directly attend the needs of its consumer base. It's a place for people to go when they don't want the actual developers around.

Edited by MischiefSC, 11 September 2014 - 07:26 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

I do not get the extreme anger at Niko - I get it, he has made some draconian decisions certainly but mostly he seems to 'get' the game which means he understands the players to a degree.

Garth was a nice guy, but he didn't GET MechWarrior or the community. He frequently let slip really bad observations about the game which were simply not true and showed he just was not on the same page.

Like the time he explained that LRMs could be used as dumb fire weapons to counter ECM ....

How much Niko was responsible for the decisions he has made might also be debatable.

I do believe he has done some hypocritical things, and I do not agree with 'some' of the bans but I really do not feel that Garth added much value ...

[IIIuminaughty]

Idk I feel like they've been doing a pretty good job answering and keeping contact with us for a week or 2...but that's just me tho

[redlance]

thank you, for all the things i am to hurt to say out loud. PGI has become the bad boyfriend i am afraid to even talk to, dispite all my hate and all my REGRET, i still wish you would just make a class based thinking mans shooter like you said you would

[ipox]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 September 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

I could totally get behind that. Though sdly, being on is Unreal the other Cryengine, no real chance of them eventually coming together. But still, an Aerotech game would convince me to buy a HOTAS again.

/disagree

He said at CW level, so not battlefield integration. Database can talk to two clients.

Love the OP, also -- I'm in the wings, too, watching and waiting and hoping and lick-thumbin' thru mah billz.

[Russ Bullock]

IIIuminaughty, on 11 September 2014 - 07:33 PM, said:

Idk I feel like they've been doing a pretty good job answering and keeping contact with us for a week or 2...but that's just me tho

It's a good post and I appreciate you taking the time. But I watch the team work 12 hours a day and making every effort to communicate but every day brings several more posts like this.

There are limits and if this past week still isn't enough, that is a hard thought.

FYI: We are working on another Vlog we hope to release it next week.

[ipox]

Russ Bullock, on 11 September 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

There are limits and if this past week still isn't enough, that is a hard thought.

FYI: We are working on another Vlog we hope to release it next week.

Thank you, Russ. It's getting ***somewhere***. Sane people understand "baby steps". Keep going.

[StillRadioactive]

Just remember, Russ... the people who make these posts are in your corner. We want you to succeed.

[Thrillho]

Russ Bullock, on 11 September 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

making every effort to communicate

No you aren't. You still haven't addressed a single concern that was brought up when the "regarding Reddit" thread blew up.

All we got was a condecending, passive agressive, "apology" from Niko, and an insincere admission that maybe you "possibly overmoderated" (as he locked up and banished a thread that was critical of PGI's direction with MWO).

I still get the feeling that you don't understand why so many angry people came back for the Schadenfreude yesterday. You do realize that most of those founders who came back had already left the game before Niko goofed up? They weren't there because of your overmoderation. They were there because you never listened to your community in any sort of meaningful way, plowed ahead with many terrible design choices despite large protests from the player base, promised things you never delivered, gave terrible excuses for all of your problems, and tried to blame the community for your shortcomings.

I don't doubt that your coders work hard on this game. What I do doubt is your commitment to actually making it better or even caring about it beyond the cashgrab that you made it.

But hey, you'll still force out a CW that is going to be nothing more than changing colors on a map, then have the audacity to say "see, we totally delivered all 4 pilliars we promised, not our fault" even though all the pilliars are still either missing or incomplete (not to mention years overdue).

[Illegal Username]

Russ Bullock, on 11 September 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

It's a good post and I appreciate you taking the time. But I watch the team work 12 hours a day and making every effort to communicate but every day brings several more posts like this.

There are limits and if this past week still isn't enough, that is a hard thought.

FYI: We are working on another Vlog we hope to release it next week.

Have you figured out why so many founders came out of the woodwork lately? You ignore feedback. You concentrate developement on lazy cash grabs instead of core features. You claimed this was because of IGP involvement but the second igp dropped you you doubled down on the clan packages. You stifle any disagreements (You can post about this but you have to do in a trash can).

And now, when a draconian moderation policy hilariously blows in your face you release "we sorry u got mad heh" nonapology and keep on keeping on.


This game is not finished and many parts of it have gotten actively worse since beta

Edited by Illegal Username, 11 September 2014 - 10:24 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Thrillho, on 11 September 2014 - 09:55 PM, said:

No you aren't. You still haven't addressed a single concern that was brought up when the "regarding Reddit" thread blew up.

All we got was a condecending, passive agressive, "apology" from Niko, and an insincere admission that maybe you "possibly overmoderated" (as he locked up and banished a thread that was critical of PGI's direction with MWO).

I still get the feeling that you don't understand why so many angry people came back for the Schadenfreude yesterday. You do realize that most of those founders who came back had already left the game before Niko goofed up? They weren't there because of your overmoderation. They were there because you never listened to your community in any sort of meaningful way, plowed ahead with many terrible design choices despite large protests from the player base, promised things you never delivered, gave terrible excuses for all of your problems, and tried to blame the community for your shortcomings.

I don't doubt that your coders work hard on this game. What I do doubt is your commitment to actually making it better or even caring about it beyond the cashgrab that you made it.

But hey, you'll still force out a CW that is going to be nothing more than changing colors on a map, then have the audacity to say "see, we totally delivered all 4 pilliars we promised, not our fault" even though all the pilliars are still either missing or incomplete (not to mention years overdue).

Not trying to start **** here but can you also understand that tens of thousands of us are still here? I dislike the way ECM is implemented, I've shared my opinion, it's still in place. It's not still in place because PGI wants to spite me personally or they hate America for its freedom - it's there because the game developer wants it there for their own reasons.

The difference is, for most of us we go 'Huh, well, I'll deal with it' or we go 'Huh, well, not really fun anymore' and we MOVE ON WITH OUR LIVES. Dragon Age 2? Left. Did you know that while I completely disagree with just about every decision made by BioWare when going from DA:O to DA2... I don't go troll their forums? I pre-ordered X:R, got it, was totally dissatisfied. Amazingly though what I don't do is go **** all over their forums and other forums about them again and again and again like an insane stalker ex girlfriend because I didn't like what they did?

More people like MW:O than like either of those games. I get you're unhappy, I understand the upset over CW - everyone does. It's not that I don't understand that when they said 'We're working on it, done in 60-90 days!' they were absolutely lying because they hadn't done any actual work on it? We all understand. Every single person here. Every single one, without exception. Everyone who bought a Clan pack (many, many thousands of us), we all know and understand that.

yet we're still here because we enjoy playing the game. If we didn't, you wouldn't even know - because instead of trying to pretend that our opinion is shared by everyone who 'understands' or that somehow our upset is the worst upset ever in the history of forever we realize that like mature adults we don't always get what we want and that maybe, just maybe, delays in release of the content we really like on a F2P game is not the grandest act of social injustice in countless ages and must be fought AT ALL COSTS. When people say the failure to release CW after closed beta was a 'scam' are people who don't understand what that word means.

We all get that and so when we see these sorts of posts understand that it's not that we don't understand what you're upset about - we absolutely understand. Sweet baby jesus sweet mother of god we understand and don't need, yet again, a ranting exposition of it like it just happened yesterday. We understood it, assimilated, made mature and rational decisions on our priorities about it and moved the **** on with our lives. Because this isn't selecting the next sitting member of the Supreme Court. We're not the Papal Curia, picking the next old white guy who gets to wear the special pointy hat. We're playing a F2P game with big stompy robots.

So, when we shout these comments down and we say we don't care about Reddit and what happened there and that we're excited about CW as it's been discussed, when we buy Clan mech packages and MC and the like and we say that your statements of

Quote

I don't doubt that your coders work hard on this game. What I do doubt is your commitment to actually making it better or even caring about it beyond the cashgrab that you made it.

Are just opinionated BS, it's not because we don't understand or were not around for the events that have caused you such monumental upset -

It's that we think you're wrong, we're having fun and if you get banned for repeatedly personally insulting PGI or other players (which, let's be absolutely clear, that's what you're doing. You're portraying your personal opinion and assumptions like they're true, which they're not. They're just your opinion like saying you think Nickleback is the best band EVAR) we don't cry for your absence.

Which is unfortunate. You seem very passionate about the game and there's always room for more meat in the grinder players in the matchmaker.

If you (and I mean that in context of people posting in the aforementioned thread who seem to be of a similar disposition, I don't know you and can't judge you as a person nor am I intending to) didn't keep putting your opinion forward like it was unquestionable truth, indirectly assume that everyone who disagrees with you is somehow stupid or incompetent or blind, if similar posts (not yours but ones in a similar vein) didn't come across as 'I am upset and don't like this and everyone else should feel the same so I'm going to **** over everything until everyone is miserable like me' in an attempt to stifle the opinions of everyone who doesn't agree, if you would quit trying to approach this as 'give me what I want or I'll hurt your business in any/every way I can until you do or until everyone agrees that I was right' because that is, again, saying '**** you everyone who doesn't feel like I do, I'll break this toy if it's not what I want'....

If you (again, a collective 'you') stop that stuff you may find you don't get banned here. None of us do. You might find you have productive conversations with devs (Paging Karl Berg! Any thread with Matthew in it, several Devs are around) and that your input makes its way into PGI. We got the 2.0 second CERLL nerf reversed and replaced with the damage decrease, range decrease, heat increase option. It happens regularly.

We'd love to have you hear and share your input. Just that, much like everyone else, you won't get what you want all the time - even most the time. Joseph wants the Clans at TT tech levels and he wants to lose 99% of his matches against them. I'm hoping he's disappointed in that. One of us (likely to some degree both of us) are not going to get what we want.

CW didn't come out. They promised it, it didn't happen. Now it's (hopefully) happening. I'll believe it when I see it at this point. I'm still here playing though. I'm not stalking BioWare on their forums for every new game they release trying to **** it all up because ZOMG DA2 HURT MAH FFFFEEEEEELLLLZZZZ! If Egosoft releases a new game I'm not going to flip my **** over it screaming 'ZOMG X:R WUZ TEH BAD GIMMIE MY MONIE BACK UR LIARS MY LIFE IS RUINED NOBODY BUY DIS EVAR!'

If I did... well, why in the world would Egosoft or BioWare want my business back? Why is my money better than the guy who is there and does like it?

Why is your butthurt special and magical butthurt that must be apologized for? Why is your dissatisfaction more significant than my satisfaction with MW:O? And FFS why do you assume that because you feel butthurt clearly it's all an evil scam intended to make your life a perpetual montage of sadness and tears?

[Illegal Username]

I forgot to mention that while Community Warfare has always been 90 days away, the current shitstorm made PGI reveal "High level design documents" about CW.

It was basically a napkin-level outline with no details whatsoever "uh maybe you have a team and you click on planets"
Paul and russ couldn't even initially agree on if there will be IS vs IS or Clan vs Clan CW.


No work has been done on CW whatsoever.