446 replies to this topic

[L Y N X]

Can you accept and play in a combat engine Based off of BT lore, but only loosely?

IF so, why worry so much, the real objective should be to ensure PGI completes CW. Accept the PGI interpretation, and stop trying to bend things to your own desires.

IF not, then go play the game you can accept. Why are folks getting so wrapped up about this shiny distraction?

[MischiefSC]

This was PGIs offer to us. Not something we did ourselves. They said 'hey, do this and we'll help implement those changes. This is a test case, if it works we'll look at other changes'.

This crowdsources most the effort in deciding what changes to make and how. It's good for PGI if it works.

The gets the community involved and invested in changes to game content. It's good for the games community if it works.

[TLBFestus]

Keep in mind that "Crowdsourcing" can be a very powerful tool if subjected to the right testing or approvals.

Anyone ever herd or, seen, or used www.99designs.ca or 99designs.com (for you US folk)? It's a great example of how effective and powerful crowdsourcing can be.You harness the efforts/intellect/talent of hundreds if not thousands fo people to drive towards a goal.

For instance, this is the result of the time I used them;

https://99designs.ca...est-breadcrumbs

You describe your goal, ie ECM fix, people submit ideas, and you fine tune things with each round of submissions til you get what you want. It's an incredibly powerful tool if used right, and maybe it will work here.


If PGI is really turning the corner and communication becomes a regular and overall positive thing, then they can harness this and do great things with it.

Edited by TLBFestus, 15 September 2014 - 03:01 PM.

[ThermidorFallen]

Can I vote against people voting? If we're going to have a vote about voting, why not have a vote about voting to vote? Maybe even voting about whether we vote on voting to vote? We could bureaucracy this through the rafters!

[Zensei]

MischiefSC, on 15 September 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

Because arguments over 'ECM is too hard/LRMs are too easy' are not game mechanics.

What needs to happen is ideas collected, converted into game mechanics and refined into something specific and playable that PGI can implement. Not 'LURMs R NO SKILLZ. ECM IS EZ MODE'.

So you need some people with reading comprehension skills to sort through it all and condense it into something useful.

Then we can debate those specific merits and turn it into something we can vote on and present.

Also... Reddit is just a place for people to talk about MW:O. This is the MW:O forums, this is where stuff about MW:O happens. What happens on Reddit needs to stay on Reddit. Crossing the streams with other sites is its own problem all together.

None of my mechs have ECM, zero, so my take is take it or leave it, I'll do what Recon always does, cover and conceal, Radar Dep is nice, so is seismic, ECM? I have no use for it, I have never acquired a mech for ECM capabilities, PGI can easily check that and my KDR and Win/loss are in positive numbers, I do not need ECM to win anything.

[MischiefSC]

Zensei, on 15 September 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

None of my mechs have ECM, zero, so my take is take it or leave it, I'll do what Recon always does, cover and conceal, Radar Dep is nice, so is seismic, ECM? I have no use for it, I have never acquired a mech for ECM capabilities, PGI can easily check that and my KDR and Win/loss are in positive numbers, I do not need ECM to win anything.

That's all great.

has absolutely nothing to do with anything being discussed.

This is about players being able to recommend changes to game mechanics. ECM, modules, IW in general, CW, PPCs, heat, whatever.

This is a test case to see if we can actually do that in a useful way. If we can nod create a task force/council/whatever and present specific and supported changes for ECM then there's no need to look into doing anything else.

[KharnZor]

Seems to me that a fair few people are disagreeing just for the sake of it.
How could you not want to improve the game?

[EgoSlayer]

Can we please stop this asinine 'no council' discussion now?
http://mwomercs.com/...player-council/

[N0MAD]

NextGame, on 15 September 2014 - 07:05 AM, said:

For a new feature, post a thread in comstar focus group about it, so that everyone can put in feedback. Lock after 7 days for feedback. Address feedback, and revise proposal. Revised proposal is what gets developed. You could even do a 2nd pass if you wanted, but not too many of these otherwise nothing would ever get done. If you want to put a forum area behind a paywall, this would also be what you would put behind it.

So what is wrong with doing this? perfect suggestion, simple, no one needs to wade thru forums, just the community giving imput PGI watching the thread.

I suppose it has a couple drawbacks, no ones ego inflated, no brown nose factor from PGI, no one is made feel important, white knights cant claim "look PGI is listening to us", Niko would need to be on these forums, instead of doing what hes been doing, tsk tsk.

[IraqiWalker]

N0MAD, on 15 September 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

So what is wrong with doing this? perfect suggestion, simple, no one needs to wade thru forums, just the community giving imput PGI watching the thread.

I suppose it has a couple drawbacks, no ones ego inflated, no brown nose factor from PGI, no one is made feel important, white knights cant claim "look PGI is listening to us", Niko would need to be on these forums, instead of doing what hes been doing, tsk tsk.

No, the only real drawback is taking a LOT longer than what can be done by crowd sourcing it. That's really the biggest drawback, and the number one reason for why this "initiative" so to speak is being considered. Plus, unlike Niko, and any other forum personnel, there are people 24/7 on the forums. These guys need their sleep like all human beings. However, while I'm asleep, the guys in Australia are just getting started. Meaning more progress can be achieved in shorter periods of time.

[Kiiyor]

ThermidorFallen, on 15 September 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

Can I vote against people voting? If we're going to have a vote about voting, why not have a vote about voting to vote? Maybe even voting about whether we vote on voting to vote? We could bureaucracy this through the rafters!

YOUR LOGIC. INFALLIBLE.

I'd vote for you, but I feel there needs to be some sort of... referendum? For that.

[N0MAD]

IraqiWalker, on 15 September 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

No, the only real drawback is taking a LOT longer than what can be done by crowd sourcing it. That's really the biggest drawback, and the number one reason for why this "initiative" so to speak is being considered. Plus, unlike Niko, and any other forum personnel, there are people 24/7 on the forums. These guys need their sleep like all human beings. However, while I'm asleep, the guys in Australia are just getting started. Meaning more progress can be achieved in shorter periods of time.

How does adding more steps to a procedure make it quicker?
How can it be slower to have a direct line to the entire community via a single thread.
This so called council has to wade thru the forums, accumulate data revise it, disscuss it them present it, after all that PGI has to read their imput etc.
I guess thats faster than PGI reading the imput in one thread.
That makes no sense at all.

[Homeless Bill]

I just want to assure you all that if I'm elected...

[MischiefSC]

N0MAD, on 15 September 2014 - 09:17 PM, said:

How does adding more steps to a procedure make it quicker?
How can it be slower to have a direct line to the entire community via a single thread.
This so called council has to wade thru the forums, accumulate data revise it, disscuss it them present it, after all that PGI has to read their imput etc.
I guess thats faster than PGI reading the imput in one thread.
That makes no sense at all.

So when they get 50 pages of input, 90% of it pretty much garbage, they have to spend hours sorting it, then revising it.

The only difference, at all, having a player task force would do is to have the players do that instead of paid PGI folks.

That's it.

Also people saying 'ECM SUX' can't be translated into game mechanics, can it? Getting a useful suggestion and detailed mechanics takes a lot more steps than 7 days of form posts in 1 thread. If 7 days of general forum posts would get us a detailed solution for ECM we would have that already.

Edited by MischiefSC, 15 September 2014 - 09:26 PM.

[N0MAD]

MischiefSC, on 15 September 2014 - 09:21 PM, said:

So when they get 50 pages of input, 90% of it pretty much garbage, they have to spend hours sorting it, then revising it.

The only difference, at all, having a player task force would do is to have the players do that instead of paid PGI folks.

That's it.

Also people saying 'ECM SUX' can't be translated into game mechanics, can it? Getting a useful suggestion and detailed mechanics takes a lot more steps than 7 days of form posts in 1 thread. If 7 days of general forum posts would get us a detailed solution for ECM we would have that already.

But thats what PGI is paid for isnt it, ohh wait god forbid they do the work they are paid to do, my bad.
If people in a thread are saying ECM sux lets the mods do their job instead of trolling other forums and such, again thats their job, ohh wait you dont expect them to actually do their job, my bad again.
But then again the population have been putting in their suggestions about ECM since its release, not enough imput i guess, bad community bad.

[MischiefSC]

N0MAD, on 15 September 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

But thats what PGI is paid for isnt it, ohh wait god forbid they do the work they are paid to do, my bad.
If people in a thread are saying ECM sux lets the mods do their job instead of trolling other forums and such, again thats their job, ohh wait you dont expect them to actually do their job, my bad again.
But then again the population have been putting in their suggestions about ECM since its release, not enough imput i guess, bad community bad.

Ah, okay. So your solution is... do what we've always done?

So here's the thing. We asked for more involvement. Maybe you didn't but the rest of us did. If you don't want to be involved than don't be. Being involved is a bit more than the same thing we've always done; complain on the forums.

It's that simple. Doing more requires someone to take ahold of that process and do it and make sure it gets done. It's that simple. One option would be to have the community say who they respect/trust/would listen to for that but having PGI assign them works too.

PGI isn't paid to listen to the community by the way. At all. They are paid to make a BT game. More to the point, they are paid to work on whatever their manager tells them to work on in the way he tells them to do it. Spending hours a day trying to sort worthwhile input out of forum garbage, like the conversation you and I are having right here, isn't an efficient use of paid time. Especially if there are volunteers who would do it for them for free.

Which... takes us back to exactly where we were.

So the point is PGI is willing to work with a small number of community folks (so they're not screaming with the mob every single day) to get focused feed back for changes. Would you like it to be NGNG or the product of community vote or PGI selected?

[N0MAD]

MischiefSC, on 15 September 2014 - 09:55 PM, said:

Ah, okay. So your solution is... do what we've always done?

So here's the thing. We asked for more involvement. Maybe you didn't but the rest of us did. If you don't want to be involved than don't be. Being involved is a bit more than the same thing we've always done; complain on the forums.

It's that simple. Doing more requires someone to take ahold of that process and do it and make sure it gets done. It's that simple. One option would be to have the community say who they respect/trust/would listen to for that but having PGI assign them works too.

PGI isn't paid to listen to the community by the way. At all. They are paid to make a BT game. More to the point, they are paid to work on whatever their manager tells them to work on in the way he tells them to do it. Spending hours a day trying to sort worthwhile input out of forum garbage, like the conversation you and I are having right here, isn't an efficient use of paid time. Especially if there are volunteers who would do it for them for free.

Which... takes us back to exactly where we were.

So the point is PGI is willing to work with a small number of community folks (so they're not screaming with the mob every single day) to get focused feed back for changes. Would you like it to be NGNG or the product of community vote or PGI selected?

Look bro i know youre heavily invested in the game, i know its given you wood to have Russ wanting imput from you guys, i know its a great ego boost to think youre getting the attention you guys have always craved.
But there are more efficient ways of doing this minus the above mentioned bonusus to you guys.
Have it your way, so much more efficient to fek around like this than a simple input forum thread, i get it.
There are as many legit reasons for not having it but you guys will get your circle jerk group cause you know it makes a happy white knight community, now its time for all of you to group hug Russ...

[IraqiWalker]

N0MAD, on 15 September 2014 - 09:17 PM, said:

How does adding more steps to a procedure make it quicker?
How can it be slower to have a direct line to the entire community via a single thread.
This so called council has to wade thru the forums, accumulate data revise it, disscuss it them present it, after all that PGI has to read their imput etc.
I guess thats faster than PGI reading the imput in one thread.
That makes no sense at all.

When the INPUT is mostly chaff that is useless, yes. It's faster to have us do it. No matter how many people PGI can assign to deal with sifting through the forums with all of the mess in it. We can usually get more, on the case.

This streamlines the entire process, and makes it more efficient. You might not see it, but others do see it. If you don't want to be involved fine. However, the community has been asking for better communication with PGI for the last 3 years. Now they're giving it to us, and we're gonna call them up on it.

N0MAD, on 15 September 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

But thats what PGI is paid for isnt it, ohh wait god forbid they do the work they are paid to do, my bad.
If people in a thread are saying ECM sux lets the mods do their job instead of trolling other forums and such, again thats their job, ohh wait you dont expect them to actually do their job, my bad again.
But then again the population have been putting in their suggestions about ECM since its release, not enough imput i guess, bad community bad.

As Mischief already said, PGI actually has no legal obligation whatsoever to listen to the forums, or pay attention to what's mentioned in there. That's actually more of a courtesy. Most game devs use the forums to sense what the playerbase might want in general, and try to add it, since they want the players to like the product more.

PGI is allowing the community to have possibly better input, by allowing a group of volunteer players (who will not be getting any payment for it, just more work on top of what they already do in real life), nominated by the community to help better put together suggestions for how to fine tune things in the game. Instead of wasting hours on end busy with trying to compile suggestions themselves.

N0MAD, on 15 September 2014 - 10:34 PM, said:

Look bro i know youre heavily invested in the game, i know its given you wood to have Russ wanting imput from you guys, i know its a great ego boost to think youre getting the attention you guys have always craved.
But there are more efficient ways of doing this minus the above mentioned bonusus to you guys.
Have it your way, so much more efficient to fek around like this than a simple input forum thread, i get it.
There are as many legit reasons for not having it but you guys will get your circle jerk group cause you know it makes a happy white knight community, now its time for all of you to group hug Russ...

Give us ONE proper efficient way compared to this?

[MischiefSC]

N0MAD, on 15 September 2014 - 10:34 PM, said:

Look bro i know youre heavily invested in the game, i know its given you wood to have Russ wanting imput from you guys, i know its a great ego boost to think youre getting the attention you guys have always craved.
But there are more efficient ways of doing this minus the above mentioned bonusus to you guys.
Have it your way, so much more efficient to fek around like this than a simple input forum thread, i get it.
There are as many legit reasons for not having it but you guys will get your circle jerk group cause you know it makes a happy white knight community, now its time for all of you to group hug Russ...

So I'm going to try and cull useful information out of your baseless ad hominems here so sorry if I miss some of your point.

Getting useful data out of raw (and often useless) consumer data isn't a new concept. Normally you make unpaid interns do it, or temps or whatever least expensive option you have is. Why? Because it's mostly just a lot of sifting and grinding data. It's hours of reading to get a paragraph of viable content.

So you have a group do it, mostly so they can shift between sifting content from raw feedback and refining already extracted content into data points that can then be turned into something useful. Nobody wants to do either one of those for too long. Plus it's a lot of hours of work, most of it makes people want to claw their eyes out.

There will be a group of people who have to sift through all the comments, collect the useful stuff and then turn that into data points. Those people can be paid PGI employees, it can be elected players or it can be players PGI selects. I guess you could print out every page of ECM feedback ever written and pay some hobos to do it but I suspect their ability to identify useful info from static would be limited.

The idea that a bunch of people just talking about a single topic with no serious moderation, leadership or direction is going to produce anything useful is an idea that has been tried, failed and abandoned repeatedly. It's why we have social groups like councils, task forces and committees. In fact it's why we have social structures at all; mobs don't do a good job at taking a concept to execution.

So this isn't a new thing. It's not brave new ground. It's an idea about as old as humanity in some form or fashion. You need a group of people to collect opinions to turn into data points that can then be refined into an executable idea or ideas that are then brought to the community for some sort of consensus. How you do this is generally related to how big a group it is.

PGI pretty clearly doesn't want to just shout back and forth with a mob. They've been doing it for years, doesn't work well. How do you know which of the multitudinous shouted opinions is the best, or best supported or has the most agreement to it? How many of those ideas are even in a format that can be logically discussed and turned into a game mechanic that can be executed upon?

I don't get why you have to involve egos in this to the degree you do. It's not about egos, it's about trying to actually get something done. PGI has said they're willing to take our feedback. They want that feedback presented by a few people, not by everyone. They want those ideas refined into mechanics and brought to the community for some sort of 80%-ish consensus. It's great they're giving us that option. What I don't get is the logic of why you're so dead set on slapping this olive branch down. This is a great opportunity, it's one we've been asking for. What do you have against taking it?

Edited by MischiefSC, 15 September 2014 - 11:09 PM.

[N0MAD]

IraqiWalker, on 15 September 2014 - 10:45 PM, said:

Give us ONE proper efficient way compared to this?

NextGames suggestion, but like i stated earlier thats way to simple and efficient right?
A feedback thread, but hey there may be some troll posts and that would create work for the mod team right?
Nope lets have some popularity votes, those people are so more efficient right cause of course they are all pros.
But dont fear you are going to get your council cause (read above post to Mischief) happy little community, even if half the forum community dont want it and the BULK of the community dont even know about it..
Never fear PGI will come thru for you.