81 replies to this topic

[3rdworld]

I have never had issues dealing with ECM in an LRM mech. Not being able to see where people are injured is by far the most powerful ability of ecm. If you have any idea what you are doing with LRMs, ecm is really not a problem. I would agree that the balance of ecm causing things like Narc to be so powerful, and having a must take module on non-lights is a problem.

[3rdworld]

IceSerpent, on 15 September 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

We already have games that "ISN'T battletech and can NEVER be battletech" - Titanfall and Hawken for example. Why are you so against having a game that "IS battletech" (or at least fairly close to that) in addition to those?

Other than tonnage of weapons and names, what is battletech here? Damage, heat, range on weapons is all different. Lrm, ecm, narc mechanics are different. JJs, armor, DHS, engines, hardpoints. I don't know of a whole heck of a lot that is cut and paste from battletech to pretend like ecm is some outlier that must follow 100%. This game isn't battletech, I don't know how you couldn't possibly get that from the way that this game diverges from the TT more than it mimics at this point.

[Mcgral18]

3rdworld, on 15 September 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

I have never had issues dealing with ECM in an LRM mech. Not being able to see where people are injured is by far the most powerful ability of ecm. If you have any idea what you are doing with LRMs, ecm is really not a problem. I would agree that the balance of ecm causing things like Narc to be so powerful, and having a must take module on non-lights is a problem.

But wouldn't it be nice if the Magic Jesus Box didn't stop direct fire missiles? You can't take LRMs without taking TAG. You've wasted tonnage at that point.

This promotes boating, which seems where most of the whine comes from.


Balance the Magic Jesus Box, and then balance indirect fire. Not being able to fire missiles directly is an issue, sub 200M/s isn't something you can manually aim either.

[Mothykins]

ECM is 100% a Jesus Box.

Rule number 1 is Nothing should ever hard counter in a game like this. Ever.

LRMS and Streaks, as implemented, can not work when against ECM. Streaks will not fire at all. LRMS are too slow to fire indirectly.

ECM should work less like that, and more like it used to in some of the older games; Increased missile lock time and decreased opposing teams sensor range. Not be Super Stealth. As ECM sits, it's more or less the single most powerful in game item; for 1.5 tons you have complete stealth.

The argument that people need to play better because it has counters is shallow at best. BAP requires you to wade into the 'Mechs bubble, where he or she most likely has team-mates larger and scarier than you are. PPC shots don't give you enough time to actually hold a lock and have any missiles hit. Tag requires Line of Sight, and usually gets the tagging unit killed. NARC is shot down by AMS. UAV is, as so kindly pointed out to me, cost ineffective and makes it impossible to progress money wise in game, as well as being shot out of the sky 75% of the time.

ECM requires you to just have it.

That's it.


Every counter to ECM is active, it requires hard work to do, even the BAP route. They're all Skill Dependant. ECM is skill independent, and that's why it needs to be fixed. That is why it's the Jesus Box. Just by HAVING it you're given an advantage.

[IceSerpent]

3rdworld, on 15 September 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

Other than tonnage of weapons and names, what is battletech here? Damage, heat, range on weapons is all different. Lrm, ecm, narc mechanics are different. JJs, armor, DHS, engines, hardpoints. I don't know of a whole heck of a lot that is cut and paste from battletech to pretend like ecm is some outlier that must follow 100%. This game isn't battletech, I don't know how you couldn't possibly get that from the way that this game diverges from the TT more than it mimics at this point.

That's precisely the problem - a lot of things are different, while a lot of other things remain unchanged. It's a really haphazard scheme, i.e. SRM/SSRM range is straight from TT, but other ranges have been changed (just an example). Aside from obvious problems with balancing that it creates (i.e. trial mechs are copied straight from TT, but don't quite work as they should due to all other changes), this brings up a big question: if this game isn't supposed to be based on battletech, why did PGI even bother with licensing?

BTW, I am not advocating for ECM to follow TT rules 100%, but I would really like to have absolutely no hard counters in the game, so I consider TT rules to be a good starting point for the whole ECM/BAP/TAG/NARC/LRM/SSRM system.

[Tombstoner]

Ertur, on 15 September 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

Show me hexes in MWO. Show me cluster damage tables in MWO. Show me Gunnery skill in MWO. Show me base to-hit numbers in MWO. You are trying to apply tabletop rules where they don't belong and can't possibly work.
In any case your own post shows exactly why we can't do anything to ECM without also completely changing how indirect fire works. Without ECM as an imperfect block to LRM's, what stops them? You yourself said a team without ECM gets wiped by LRM's as everything stands now (I'm just taking that as a given for the moment, not agreeing with it). So instead of only teams that drop with no ECM getting wiped, all teams get wiped by LRM's? How is that an improvement?
IF and only IF there is a significant change to how indirect fire works would it be worthwhile to revisit how ECM works. Given the current implementation of indirect fire, however, it is not going to be worthwhile.

Ever look at the mech design rules...... . where do you think that came from .... why does fero and endo take up 14 slots....... where do xl engins come from or double heat sinks..... TT...

[Ertur]

Mcgral18, on 15 September 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

But wouldn't it be nice if the Magic Jesus Box didn't stop direct fire missiles? You can't take LRMs without taking TAG. You've wasted tonnage at that point.

This promotes boating, which seems where most of the whine comes from.


Balance the Magic Jesus Box, and then balance indirect fire. Not being able to fire missiles directly is an issue, sub 200M/s isn't something you can manually aim either.

Actually, LRM boating came first to MWO and only AFTER that did ECM show up. That was the first and worst LRMpocolypse. So your invalid post full of invalid points is completely invalid. Also, SRM's, being entirely direct fire, are also entirely and completely UNAFFECTED by ECM. What you are whining (that's the word for it) about is INDIRECT fired LRMS. Heck, you can dumb fire LRM's into ECM all day long. It won't do much, granted, but you can do it.

And you should feel bad. But you won't.

[nehebkau]

Cavale, on 15 September 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

ECM should work less like that, and more like it used to in some of the older games; Increased missile lock time and decreased opposing teams sensor range. Not be Super Stealth. As ECM sits, it's more or less the single most powerful in game item; for 1.5 tons you have complete stealth.

Every counter to ECM is active, it requires hard work to do, even the BAP route. They're all Skill Dependant. ECM is skill independent, and that's why it needs to be fixed. That is why it's the Jesus Box. Just by HAVING it you're given an advantage.

WOW Completely invisible! No one can see you at all? You realize that you can shoot a mech when it DOESN'T have a little red triangle above its head right? All it means is you actually have to pay attention. I've never had a problem with spotting and shooting an ECM mech.

So, you are going to tell me that LRMs require skill? How much skill does it take to press 'R' and move your mouse over a little red box until it changes colour? ZERO, that's how much -- I could train my dog to do it.

BAP - requires no skill to use.
TAG - easier than using a laser
NARC -- magic missile Jesus box that lets 12 mechs, who can't see a target all of a sudden focus all of their lrms down on one target who doesn't even know they've been targeted by god for deletion.

And, most of all, you just want to ignore the entire realm of ECM being used by VERY lightly armored mechs (with only one exception) which, usually, have the worst weapons load outs of their respective classes.

Get a grip people.

It's seriously time to make ECM available to ALL mechs but have no AOE effect.

[3rdworld]

IceSerpent, on 15 September 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

That's precisely the problem - a lot of things are different, while a lot of other things remain unchanged. It's a really haphazard scheme, i.e. SRM/SSRM range is straight from TT, but other ranges have been changed (just an example). Aside from obvious problems with balancing that it creates (i.e. trial mechs are copied straight from TT, but don't quite work as they should due to all other changes), this brings up a big question: if this game isn't supposed to be based on battletech, why did PGI even bother with licensing?

BTW, I am not advocating for ECM to follow TT rules 100%, but I would really like to have absolutely no hard counters in the game, so I consider TT rules to be a good starting point for the whole ECM/BAP/TAG/NARC/LRM/SSRM system.

Well, my point with the TT comment: If you want to change ECM, fine. I personally have no real opinion on it. But looking for TT as a reason to change it is silly, when at the very least half of the game doesn't follow TT.

Base arguments in MWO. Basing them on a different game is an assinine way to balance MWO. Specifically basing it on a game so poorly balanced as to need a out of game rating system.

[Lyoto Machida]

Ertur, on 15 September 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

There is a lot of mis-information and exaggeration that is going on currently about ECM's. This is my take.

Here's the misinformation:


Childish and stupid argument, whoever came up with it should feel bad.
There is nothing magic or unexpected with ECM. It disrupts radar returns in an area around the ECM mech and within range it blocks tactical data sharing, or it counters enemy ECM within range.
More importantly it can be disabled in many ways:
BAP counterjams ECM within range
TAG negates ECM on any mech under ECM cover
NARC counterjams ECM on the ECM mech
UAV negates all ECM within its range
PPC disrupts ECM on the ECM mech.
ECM can counterjam ECM within range


Also, all of these things are valuable in other ways for LRM/streak mechs. BAP increases radar range and target info gathering while reducing the time to get a lock, TAG increases the effectiveness of the lock, NARC allows a mech to be targeted even when it is no longer in line-of-sight of any friendly mech, UAV can see over hills and cover to reveal all enemies in its range (still line of sight, just higher), PPC does direct damage, and ECM is well what this whole tempest in a teapot is all about. Some, if not all, of these things should be on any mech or with any group of mechs that wants to use LRMs or streaks.

An inability to deal with ECM reflects a failure of tactics, no teamwork, and/or a lack of skill. Period. This is such a non-issue that it isn't funny. And it is in no way 'magic Jesus box' with the number of ways it can be countered.


...are for tabletop. We aren't rolling dice to see what happens in ten second intervals, this is a real-time sim. It is going to be different from tabletop by it's nature. That is unavoidable.


Which would be why it doesn't. It negates radar locks within a certain range of the ECM mech. Outside of that bubble, LRMs and streaks work just peachy. Disrupt the ECM in any of the several ways listed above and LRMs and streaks work just peachy. The weapons aren't in any way negated, you just have to have some skill and understand the game to use them effectively. Which is true for every other weapon system in the game, you have to know how to use them in order to use them effectively. Also, it should be noted that the weapons systems that are affected are some of the lowest-skill-required systems available.


Actually, no I wouldn't. The mechs that can use ECM are typically pretty mediocre in terms of the rest of the variants for those chassis or for other mechs of that weight class. The Spider and Commando ECM mechs are the slowest with hard engine caps, the Raven has bland weapons loadouts (exceeded in all ways by the Jenner D and F) though that's true of the chassis as a whole, and the Cicada has only torso mounted weapons (which are limited in their vertical range). The DDC is the outlier in that it actually has decent hardpoints for its class and chassis (the RS has the same number, with more energy than missile, and the K has less weapons overall), but then that's the only ECM capable mech that I've ever seen in game without ECM more than once. Generally, ECM is something that gives an otherwise unremarkable mech some value. On a mech that is otherwise strong, I'm not going to gimp my build by taking away speed or damage just to get ECM on it. The only mech I have that I would consider it would be one of my Locusts, which is so gimped by its lack of armor and tonnage that trading in a medium pulse laser and two small pulse lasers for an ECM and one medium laster+two small lasers would be a no-brainer. But I can't do that, and I shouldn't be able to do that. It's entirely correct that only a few mechs can carry ECM. Not because ECM is so ungodly overpowered, but because it gives some mechs something to do for their team.
In any case the entire argument is silly, because the same thing can be said about anything. "Would you put endo-steel on anything if you could? Yes, you would. That means it is overpowered." Or DHS. Or energy weapons. Or max engines. Or whatever.


That's actually exactly how jamming works. To understand jamming you have to understand radar. There's three parts to radar, a transmitter, a receiver, and a calculator. The transmitter shoots out a frequency of invisible light, the receiver receives the echo, and the system calculates the range of the thing that reflected the echo by determining how long it took the light to go there and back. What jamming does is it sends out a higher power signal that drowns out the echo, so the range can't be determined. It's like radar is sweeping a flashlight around a room, and where you can see the light of the flashlight you could calculate the range. Now imagine looking for things that are between you and the sun using a flashlight. Are you going to see the light from the flashlight? No. So you can't figure out the range. Even though you may be able to see the reflection of those things from the sun's light, even things around or behind the sun, you can't figure out the range because you have no idea how long it took that light to get to you because it wasn't the light you sent out. Your light is drowned out by the sun's.

However, like a broken clock twice each day this broken argument actually has some things that are right:

The area where ECM prevents radar from working isn't a circle. It's a parabola, with the point of the curve nearest the radar with the focal point of the curve being the jammer. You can't see behind jamming. You need a second radar at a distance away to do that. Now, a circle of coverage is simpler to program than a bunch of constantly changing parabolas (parabolae?), so that's a reasonable enough approximation. But understand, an accurate implementation of jamming's area of effect would make things 'worse,' not better.

Also, what is missing is the ability to know a bearing to the jammer and to home-on-jam. The first point is kind of useless in any case, it's just a bearing and you can't use indirect fire on just a bearing. Even triangulation would only provide a rough idea of where the jammer is, and couldn't be used to launch anything effective. The second point is easy to answer (wrongly, though): it's not in table top. But as I said before, that's not entirely applicable here. Arty and air strikes aren't in tabletop either, at least not in any form like what we have here. I would actually be ok if there was some kind of home-on-jam specific air strike that would target a random (or the nearest) ECM mech, and actually be guided to the mech. If they turn off the ECM after the strike is called but before it hits, then the strike would just go to where the ECM was turned off. Call it a HARM strike and it would work just like other strikes, only without smoke and it would home in on an active jammer. Any kind of mech-based home-on-jam system would have to be a direct-fire streak-like missile, and would be of limited use or effectiveness so I wouldn't call for anything like that.


No, I suggested something above. Also, one thing that needs to get addressed and corrected ASAP is hit registration for Narc pods. I hate watching a Narc I shoot go through an enemy mech. It seems to happen almost half the time and it is infinitely annoying. Maybe the narc needs to be faster or something. Whatever the fix is, it needs to happen yesterday.

Other things I'd kind of like to see would be a passive radar mode and an IR locking method.

Passive radar mode (anyone here play MW4?):
Tag, narc, ECM, and BAP wouldn't work (those are all explicitly active systems).
Can't have own locks, but can see UAV and other players' locks (so long as they aren't passive, too) -- including other players' tag and narc locks.
Can only be detected by BAP at the normal detection range (ie negates the BAP's extended range).
Can only be detected by normal radar at the range where BAP would detect a shut down mech.

IR locking for SSRM and LRM:
Must be in heat vision, but can work in passive radar mode. Range is limited by the range of heat vision. Normal radar locking would not be possible while in this mode, it's one or the other.
Hover reticle over target for a second or two and get a visual and auditory IR lock notification (this would not 'hook' or select the target in any way).
Once lock is achieved it is held for as long as the reticle is on the target (maybe an IR target decay would allow for a second or two).
Once the missiles are away, they no longer require the lock -- IR missiles are fire and forget. If the lock is lost by the player, they will still home in on the target.
One player's IR lock can't be used by anyone else, and it wouldn't provide any target info. It's not a radar lock.

But these would be nice to have, and lower priority than the Narc hit registration issue. The HARM strike idea might make people think and think again about maybe not bringing ECM, so it's a trade-off. "Do I take ECM and eat a couple of strikes I can't avoid or know that they are coming, or not?" So I would say, in order: absolutely fix narcs, maybe implement HARM strikes, then maybe do the IR locking and lastly maybe allow for passive radar. The last two are more significant programming changes and would take longer anyhow, even if they were something that anyone would want. Which is iffy.

But the bottom line is that ECM isn't as bad a problem as it is being described as being, and certainly not an instant-win gamebreaking magical Jesus box. Take away the hysteria, and there's not much to see. Sure, there's room for improvement or minor changes, but the way it has been set up is actually pretty sensible and a reasonable model despite its inherently unavoidable over-simplification of how jamming works.

As for the 99 actual problems I have, you'd have to get past the top 80 or so to get to where there's anything MWO related. Job, finances, relationships, whirled peas, that sort of thing make up most of them. But so far as MWO goes, I would say that desyncs and hit registration (including narcs, btw) could be in that list. But ECM ain't in it at all. Some people got no priorities is all I can think.

If ECM is truly currently fine as you say, allow all chassis/variants to equip one then. Shouldn't be an issue, right?

[Ertur]

ooooo if only I had addressed that, oh wait I did. Nice try. Buhbye.

Lyoto Machida, on 15 September 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

If ECM is truly currently fine as you say, allow all chassis/variants to equip one then. Shouldn't be an issue, right?

[nehebkau]

Lyoto Machida, on 15 September 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

If ECM is truly currently fine as you say, allow all chassis/variants to equip one then. Shouldn't be an issue, right?

Ertur, on 15 September 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:

ooooo if only I had addressed that, oh wait I did. Nice try. Buhbye.

I think that is an excellent idea. Make it NON AOE and let EVERY class equip it.

Edited by nehebkau, 15 September 2014 - 02:48 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Ertur, on 15 September 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

Actually, LRM boating came first to MWO and only AFTER that did ECM show up. That was the first and worst LRMpocolypse. So your invalid post full of invalid points is completely invalid. Also, SRM's, being entirely direct fire, are also entirely and completely UNAFFECTED by ECM. What you are whining (that's the word for it) about is INDIRECT fired LRMS. Heck, you can dumb fire LRM's into ECM all day long. It won't do much, granted, but you can do it.

And you should feel bad. But you won't.

You used to be able to bring a single 15 rack, and know it wasn't going to be useless. Risky nowadays.

Are you saying we have MMLs? How do you fire SRMs out of your LRM launchers? Owait...you can't.

I'm not the one whining about Indirect, that would be your group. You can't stand the thought of playing the game without your Magic Jesus Box, with stealth armour all inclusive without the crit slot or heat cost.

I want balance, you want to bastardize lore because you can't learn to dodge missiles.

Edited by Mcgral18, 15 September 2014 - 02:50 PM.

[nehebkau]

Mcgral18, on 15 September 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

I want balance, you want to bastardize lore because you can't learn to dodge missiles.

you want to use an incompatible rule-set to make a game even worse. This is not TT battletech, get over it and move on.

As an aside, you just want ECM gone so you can bring your lrm boat into the game because you cant learn to aim an AC. (see what I did there hehe)

Edited by nehebkau, 15 September 2014 - 02:53 PM.

[IceSerpent]

3rdworld, on 15 September 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Well, my point with the TT comment: If you want to change ECM, fine. I personally have no real opinion on it. But looking for TT as a reason to change it is silly, when at the very least half of the game doesn't follow TT.

Base arguments in MWO. Basing them on a different game is an assinine way to balance MWO. Specifically basing it on a game so poorly balanced as to need a out of game rating system.

Agreed...well, sort of. I wouldn't use TT as a primary reason to change something, but I would use TT as a rough guideline for how to change things if I feel that current implementation doesn't work well. All other things being equal, why try to reinvent something from scratch when you can steal at least parts of it from an existing system.

On a side note, why do you think that TT is so poorly balanced? It seems to work rather well in that regard, aside from a few select weapons (i.e. AC2).

[Clit Beastwood]

Mcgral18, on 15 September 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

But wouldn't it be nice if the Magic Jesus Box didn't stop direct fire missiles? You can't take LRMs without taking TAG. You've wasted tonnage at that point.

It doesn't stop dumb fired LRMs, they can still be used for area denial. Please stop calling it a Magic Jesus Box - you're better than that. It's called ECM. If we need to change anything, it's LRMs. Let's just change it so that LRMs fired without the benefit of a target lock follow the TAG of the mech they're fired from. Then, there's your direct fire lrms, there's your use for TAG, and there's your mitigation of ECM without completely removing it. LRM fan's still won't know how to play the game, but no amount of buff and nerf will ever change that. Only training and practice do that, and in the current "everyone gets a participation trophy" world we live in, we can't go around expecting players to, I don't know... learn?

This isn't tabletop, and it's never going to be. If tabletop was all that fun, people would be playing that instead of MWO. But they aren't - they're here to play MWO *because* it's faster paced. They're here to play MWO *because* it's more skill based. They're here to play MWO because, frankly, MWO is variety. What people *can't* handle is... maybe they were great at tabletop... and they suck at MWO. That's fine - they were great at a game where dice decide the outcome of their battles. That is never going to translate well into a skill based game.

Lyoto Machida, on 15 September 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

If ECM is truly currently fine as you say, allow all chassis/variants to equip one then. Shouldn't be an issue, right?

Sure, impose the same engine and hardpoint caps/reductions and let everything carry ECM. Knock 20kph off the top speed of any mech carrying ECM and let's go. Done. Moving on.

You guys all realize that these "nerf this!" "etc. is OP!" threads have one real result, right? Here's the new user experience

1. New user starts playing the game. Gets ***** hard, doesn't understand why.
2. They go to the forums and see posts about OP lrm's and ECM.
3. They jump to the conclusion that the reason they're failing is because of #2. Not because they're new. Not because the game has no training and a complicated learning curve, due to myriad undocumented "caveats".
4. They then start their own thread, complaining about stuff that's already been complained about, rather than practicing, grinding through it.
5. A new player starts the game. Gets ***** hard, doesn't understand why.
6. They go to the forums and see posts about OP lrm's and ECM.
etc. etc. etc.

Edited by Fierostetz, 15 September 2014 - 02:58 PM.

[3rdworld]

IceSerpent, on 15 September 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

Agreed...well, sort of. I wouldn't use TT as a primary reason to change something, but I would use TT as a rough guideline for how to change things if I feel that current implementation doesn't work well. All other things being equal, why try to reinvent something from scratch when you can steal at least parts of it from an existing system.

On a side note, why do you think that TT is so poorly balanced? It seems to work rather well in that regard, aside from a few select weapons (i.e. AC2).

The simple fact BV existed points to it being unbalanced,

[IceSerpent]

Ertur, on 15 September 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:

ooooo if only I had addressed that, oh wait I did. Nice try. Buhbye.

Actually, you didn't. The question you tried to address was:

Quote

If ECM could be put on anything, wouldn't you always use it? Yes, you would. That means it is overpowered.

while your response was:

Quote

Actually, no I wouldn't. The mechs that can use ECM are typically pretty mediocre in terms of the rest of the variants for those chassis or for other mechs of that weight class...

Properties of current ECM carriers are completely irrelevant to a scenario where you can put ECM on every mech. Nice try though.

[Mcgral18]

nehebkau, on 15 September 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

you want to use an incompatible rule-set to make a game even worse. This is not TT battletech, get over it and move on.

As an aside, you just want ECM gone so you can bring your lrm boat into the game because you cant learn to aim an AC. (see what I did there hehe)

Make the Magic Jesus Box cost 12 crit slots and generate 10 heat; I'll be happy then. It will be aECMm which costs 2 tons, stealth armour, with just a LITTLE bit of Magic thrown in to block direct fire LRMs.

Fix the direct fire, without having to pay a tax.

Fierostetz, on 15 September 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

It doesn't stop dumb fired LRMs, they can still be used for area denial. Please stop calling it a Magic Jesus Box - you're better than that. It's called ECM. If we need to change anything, it's LRMs. Let's just change it so that LRMs fired without the benefit of a target lock follow the TAG of the mech they're fired from. Then, there's your direct fire lrms, there's your use for TAG, and there's your mitigation of ECM without completely removing it. LRM fan's still won't know how to play the game, but no amount of buff and nerf will ever change that. Only training and practice do that, and in the current "everyone gets a participation trophy" world we live in, we can't go around expecting players to, I don't know... learn?

I wish I could fire my weapons without paying a tax...which is why I use Pulse lasers. Game is too easy with the Magic Jesus Box on my team. I need to use some of the worst weapons in the game for a challenge. It's quite fun.

I will call it what it is. aECM,+Stealth Armour+Direct fire blocking magic. At the cost of 1.5 tons, instead of 2+14 crits (two from aECM)

Edited by Mcgral18, 15 September 2014 - 03:01 PM.

[Thorqemada]

ECM is horrible for PUGs and New Players, it makes High Pinger life miserable!

PUG = ECM kills the non verbal communication per Battlemap as Mechs under ECM do not show up
New Players = Where are the Enemies?
High Pinger = How the **** shall i hit these Telporting/Rubberbanding Targets if not with LRM/SSRM ?

Edited by Thorqemada, 15 September 2014 - 03:03 PM.