81 replies to this topic

[Damien Tokala]

i nominate OP for our ECM lead voice

[Ertur]

Aresye, on 15 September 2014 - 04:49 PM, said:

This is pretty much where I stopped reading, but to be quite honest, it's not like everything before was smooth sailing anyway.

I even used to be an anti-LRM guy. Have I started using LRMs now? What's changed? Have I started using missiles now and suddenly I'm pro-LRM? Nope. I just took LRM boats out for a few runs and realized just how much missile players got the short end of the stick.

I'm not actually anti-LRM, either. Around 10% of my mechs have LRM's on them. I recall writing a kind of long "L2P and use ECM & cover" in one of the several 'nerf LRM's now' posts last month (remember all those?), but I may not have posted it since there were about a thousand other replies saying the same thing. But that's with the current limitations. Get rid of ECM and LRM's will need to be nerf'ed and nerf'ed hard.
But let's be honest -- holding my mouse over a target for a few seconds and then sending 30 or more points of damage their way from behind a hill every few seconds isn't anything close to maneuvering in a brawl to put an AC40 in someone's face while trying to keep them from critting out my shoulders, or even as difficult as landing a dual guass to someone's face from a click out (which I can't actually do, so props to those who can). In terms of putting 30+ points of damage on someone, LRMing is pretty much the easiest and least dangerous way to go, even if I put half of my shots in a hill because I lost lock or they found cover.

[Ertur]

Lyoto Machida, on 15 September 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

Still avoiding the question, eh? I'm not surprised. I'm not the only one who mentioned that you didn't address it but whatever. OP is like Fox News...fair and balanced.

Yes, I addressed it. I'm sorry you cannot understand English. May I suggest some Basic English classes for you? There are several available online.

To address it more completely, so you don't misunderstand I will elaborate (that means to explain with more information). ECM has the same weight as AMS + 1 ton of ammo. I would say that if I have a mech with AMS and 1 ton of ammo, then that would be a mech that I would use ECM on if it was available. Because otherwise I am not going to drop speed, armor, or weapons to squeeze in something that I'm not all that impressed with. And out of over 60 mechs that don't have ECM that would be a grand total of 5. So on about 5 mechs I'd maybe trade AMS for ECM.
Heck I've run a no ECM Kit Fox, even though all Kit Fox's can have ECM and having ECM+AMS is about the only thing that slowpoke is good for. But that's just me, and not all that you asked.

In any case, and why I've ignored it to this point, am I in a position to say what other people would do? No. Some people like Justin Beaver or what ever that is. Clearly what some people do is beyond all understanding. However, there is nothing preventing people from playing in a group with 3 DDCs, 3 Cicadas, and 3 ECM lights. How often do you see that? About never, right? I've never seen it.

Also, I'm not the one saying ECM should be available for all mechs. I don't think that. I think that is a stupid idea. You and people like you are trying to say that ECM is OP because if everyone could put it on every mech they would and that makes it overpowered. The lack of logic in that argument is another reason why I've been ignoring it. I feel bad that anyone who would think it is in any way clever. Why is that so? Because the initial condition is universally false. In the statement "If every mech could carry ECM then..." whatever follows the 'then' is completely pointless. Not every mech can carry ECM. Anything and everything after that is unimportant. If wishes were wings then pigs would fly. Anyways, by your logic if people equipped energy weapons in every mech that could equip energy weapons, then that means energy weapons are overpowered. Even if everyone does it, that doesn't mean that it is overpowered. It COULD be because of that, but it doesn't follow from the condition.

Here's one for you, BAP at 1.5 tons is one of several effective counters to ECM. Every mech CAN carry that. Now. If ECM is such a problem, why then doesn't every mech carry BAP?
Oh, just a hint you can't use the answer I just used without acknowledging that ECM isn't such a problem.

[IceSerpent]

Ghogiel, on 15 September 2014 - 04:06 PM, said:

I think he is saying that since nothing in TT is actually balanced based on its tonnage and crits alone and requires an arbitrarily set rating that we do not have, that following TT implemetation of ECM without BV is self evident it's not going to be balalnced.

Following TT implementation to the letter - yes, won't be balanced. Following TT concept of no hard counters for weapons would IMHO be very beneficial.

[Lyoto Machida]

Ertur, on 15 September 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

Yes, I addressed it. I'm sorry you cannot understand English. May I suggest some Basic English classes for you? There are several available online.

To address it more completely, so you don't misunderstand I will elaborate (that means to explain with more information). ECM has the same weight as AMS + 1 ton of ammo. I would say that if I have a mech with AMS and 1 ton of ammo, then that would be a mech that I would use ECM on if it was available. Because otherwise I am not going to drop speed, armor, or weapons to squeeze in something that I'm not all that impressed with. And out of over 60 mechs that don't have ECM that would be a grand total of 5. So on about 5 mechs I'd maybe trade AMS for ECM.
Heck I've run a no ECM Kit Fox, even though all Kit Fox's can have ECM and having ECM+AMS is about the only thing that slowpoke is good for. But that's just me, and not all that you asked.

In any case, and why I've ignored it to this point, am I in a position to say what other people would do? No. Some people like Justin Beaver or what ever that is. Clearly what some people do is beyond all understanding. However, there is nothing preventing people from playing in a group with 3 DDCs, 3 Cicadas, and 3 ECM lights. How often do you see that? About never, right? I've never seen it.

Also, I'm not the one saying ECM should be available for all mechs. I don't think that. I think that is a stupid idea. You and people like you are trying to say that ECM is OP because if everyone could put it on every mech they would and that makes it overpowered. The lack of logic in that argument is another reason why I've been ignoring it. I feel bad that anyone who would think it is in any way clever. Why is that so? Because the initial condition is universally false. In the statement "If every mech could carry ECM then..." whatever follows the 'then' is completely pointless. Not every mech can carry ECM. Anything and everything after that is unimportant. If wishes were wings then pigs would fly. Anyways, by your logic if people equipped energy weapons in every mech that could equip energy weapons, then that means energy weapons are overpowered. Even if everyone does it, that doesn't mean that it is overpowered. It COULD be because of that, but it doesn't follow from the condition.

Here's one for you, BAP at 1.5 tons is one of several effective counters to ECM. Every mech CAN carry that. Now. If ECM is such a problem, why then doesn't every mech carry BAP?
Oh, just a hint you can't use the answer I just used without acknowledging that ECM isn't such a problem.

Lol...ok. I'm guessing you think PGI just arbitrarily picked a few random mechs to throw ECM on and then forgot about giving the other 100+ mechs out there ECM hardpoints, right? Has nothing to do with their flawed implementation of it?

Why is Russ even offering up this player council idea if there are no issues with the current implementation of it?

Also, you're assuming a lot just because YOU wouldn't take ECM at 1.5 tons. 1.5 tons is a IS ML and SL...if that minuscule amount of extra firepower is worth it to you, have fun with it. 1.5 tons might get you a couple kph more speed. Most sensible players I know would take the ECM over that.

Personally, I never take AMS unless a mech has 2 or more (and even then it's not a guarantee). That's because AMS is not worth the 1.5 tons to me, since I rarely die to LRMs. If you don't see the benefit to taking ECM, that's not my problem.

As far as BAP goes, not everyone likes to fight under 200m. Keep trolling though...I appreciate your style and effort.

[Ghogiel]

Lyoto Machida, on 15 September 2014 - 09:51 PM, said:

Why is Russ even offering up this player council idea if there are no issues with the current implementation of it?

PR

[Mothykins]

nehebkau, on 15 September 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

WOW Completely invisible! No one can see you at all? You realize that you can shoot a mech when it DOESN'T have a little red triangle above its head right? All it means is you actually have to pay attention. I've never had a problem with spotting and shooting an ECM mech.

So, you are going to tell me that LRMs require skill? How much skill does it take to press 'R' and move your mouse over a little red box until it changes colour? ZERO, that's how much -- I could train my dog to do it.

BAP - requires no skill to use.
TAG - easier than using a laser
NARC -- magic missile Jesus box that lets 12 mechs, who can't see a target all of a sudden focus all of their lrms down on one target who doesn't even know they've been targeted by god for deletion.

And, most of all, you just want to ignore the entire realm of ECM being used by VERY lightly armored mechs (with only one exception) which, usually, have the worst weapons load outs of their respective classes.

Get a grip people.

It's seriously time to make ECM available to ALL mechs but have no AOE effect.

Oh man, I totally never would have thought of that. I mean, I totally never shoot my ERPPCs out to maximum range, where you can't even get a radar lock. Wow. I never would factor into my reasoning that I can shoot at something outside of radar with no little red triangle. It totally never occurred to me. Ever.

It's ******* stealth. Oh man, I see one thing moving; does he have friends? What is it? Is it just some 3L or is it something in ones bubble? Better yet, it's a dark map, and I CAN'T ******* SEE THE MECH. Or he has actual camo, not bright dazzling colours like the Jester.


Also, Bap? It's really not great bonuses. It's the same weight as the ECM and doesn't even come CLOSE to being as good. at all. TAG is worse than a ******* laser because a laser actually does damage, you need to hold the tag on them like a laser and wait for a lock, and then hope to ******* hell they don't move behind something or you've pretty much done nothing. And NARC IS ******* SHOT DOWN BY AMS. AMS. NARC IS ONE MISSILE. AMS WILL KILL IT. ALMOST EVERY TIME. On top of that, it only works in an ECM bubble if you shoot the ******* ECM mech!

nehebkau, on 15 September 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

Then make any LRMs fired generate 5 heat for every LRM fired then i'd be fine with that.... LRM 10, 50 heat, lrm 20 100 heat. that would be well and balanced.

nehebkau, on 15 September 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

You just want ECM gone so you can bring your lrm boat into the game because you cant learn to aim an AC. (see what I did there hehe)

See, the problem is you just hate LRMs. It's something you keep bringing up. You hate the idea someone can get someone else to spot for them, and lob missiles at you. That's it. You are fundamentally enraged by it. You're the sort of person who'd take a sword in a fantasy game full of long range weapons and magic and then ***** when the wizard hit you with lightning when you tried to charge him. You'd demand everyone use a sword "Like a real man."

Your arguments are childish, you don't want things to change because it'll hinder your ease of winning, and most likely your end goal is to be disruptive and anger others so that you can say you where right because they lost their temper and attacked you personally.

I have many things I want to say to you, and I'm pretty sure you know what they are, so I guess you got there. Congratulations.

[ToriStark]

Ertur, on 15 September 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

You are trying to apply tabletop rules where they don't belong and can't possibly work.

Why not?

Ertur, on 15 September 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

Without ECM as an imperfect block to LRM's, what stops them?

AMS, cover, speed...

Edited by ToriStark, 15 September 2014 - 10:49 PM.

[Aresye]

ToriStark, on 15 September 2014 - 10:48 PM, said:

AMS, cover, speed...

...radar deprivation module, twisting to spread damage, killing the narcing mech early, charging the missile boats, artillery/air strikes...

[Lyoto Machida]

ToriStark, on 15 September 2014 - 10:48 PM, said:

Why not?


AMS, cover, speed...

Ironically, speed is one of the things he mentioned where he'd rather invest the 1.5 tons into (as opposed to ECM).

[Truesight]

You guys can discuss this for weeks with no end. The real problem that everyone has is, that (at least in PUG matches) you can not prepare for ECM. Sometimes your team has one, sometimes ist has none, sometimes the enemy has 3 while your Team has 0 ECM Mechs.

Yes, ECM is strong, but you can break it as explained in the first post. LRM boats have the same problem, sometimes there is a spotter around, sometimes there is none, which sucks as an LRM Boat.

I say, we need LRM balancing in the matchmaker, so that every team gets the same amount of ECM Mechs. Problem solved if OP or not, the rest is up to "Team skill".

[Lyoto Machida]

Truesight, on 15 September 2014 - 11:57 PM, said:

You guys can discuss this for weeks with no end. The real problem that everyone has is, that (at least in PUG matches) you can not prepare for ECM. Sometimes your team has one, sometimes ist has none, sometimes the enemy has 3 while your Team has 0 ECM Mechs.

Yes, ECM is strong, but you can break it as explained in the first post. LRM boats have the same problem, sometimes there is a spotter around, sometimes there is none, which sucks as an LRM Boat.

I say, we need LRM balancing in the matchmaker, so that every team gets the same amount of ECM Mechs. Problem solved if OP or not, the rest is up to "Team skill".

You don't need a spotter around for LRMs though. You just need to be close to your brawlers, bring your own TAG and hope that the enemy doesn't outnumber you with ECM.

There's no way to get over 40% accuracy with LRMs using indirect fire.

[Davers]

nehebkau, on 15 September 2014 - 04:07 PM, said:

In case you haven't been paying attention, ECM as it stands was brought in because of the first lurmageddon (game history -- learn it). Remove it and the same thing will happen.

ECM was brought in because it exists in BT, not because of any 'lurmageddon'.

[Phex]

So...
ECM is fine as it is!
There are enough options to counter it!
But... if the Players that are complaining are refusing to take a counter and rather take more weppons...
Complainig about ECM and refusing to take a counter is so...

Greetings Phex

[Truesight]

Lyoto Machida, on 16 September 2014 - 12:01 AM, said:

... hope that the enemy doesn't outnumber you with ECM...

See, thats my point right there, its a gamble right now how much ECM there is for each team. It should be the same for both teams, i am glad you agree on this part.

LRMs were just an example and btw. a Spotter with ECM, TAG and Narc is godsent for all LRM Mechs, even if you can do without, makes your live just so much easier.

[Kiyoshi Amaya]

Just to quote what I've said in another thread:

Quote

It's amazing how the psychological effect of losing a little red marker can make people cry like angry, hungry new borns. Again, using tactics and your eyes helps. To be completely honest here, that little red marker is a gamers biggest crutch and has been present in almost every fps game made. It's a skill killer. It's easy mode. And you all cry when ecm takes away your "enemy is over here" sign even when you have a line of sight on them and guns on your mech ready to fire. Yes, it does also hide other mechs on its team. I might not agree with that ability but that's the way it works currently. You have plenty of ways to counter ecm so think and use them. When ecm first arrived, there were no counters. So these days, you've got it easier.

[Johnny Z]

Great OP.

The only change to ECM i would like to see is the ability to stack them. As far as I know ecm can be stacked to make tag, and the rest not work anymore. At first sight I think stopping them from stacking is a good idea, but maybe I missed something.

Any other changes making ecm weaker devalues bap, tag, narc, uav. Not good in my onion.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

The only people who want ECM changed are the old timers who want TT rules. This is an online FPS, not TT! ECM is countered is so many ways its silly. Im not going into any depth here. I agree this game has 99 problems and ECM is not one! If you want ECM TT rules, may I suggest you teach your grand kids how to play per-internet TT games and see how well that holds up.

I want my ravens hitboxes back to pre HSR/SRM fix!
I want all classes to be viable again, and that means buffing lights so they are not one-shotted in any one place by clan alphas.
I want NARC to work
I NEVER had DC issues until PGI moved their data center, now I get them every 5th match or so.
I want smoke screens be4 I want an ECM change.

For the record, I dont use ECM mechs but once in a blue moon. I prefer my raven 4x, jenner D and Huginn. They all need a looking into, armor wise WAY be4 ECM needs looking into. The last thing we need is more ways LRMS rule the battlefield. They may not get the kills, but they get the dmg done!

Change ECM and I walk!

[l33tworks]

I agree, I don't have trouble with ECM and I almost never use ECM mechs. Nerfing it further will just mean it will be another item you shouldn't take because the tonnage and space will be better spent elsewhere except in rare circumstances.

[Sadist Cain]

MischiefSC, on 15 September 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

So let's make this clear. Again and again as need be because a lot of people may have missed it.

Changes to ECM was Russ (PGIs) decision.

The offer to make a player elected group or even individual was how PGI said they wanted it done.

This is being done as a 'test case' for possible future player-driven changes to game mechanics.

This is PGIs idea and it is being done to give the community a chance to put forward changes to game mechanics in a format that works for PGI and has us doing the leg-work so they can focus on the game. They picked ECM as a starting point.

If we fail to assemble a task force of players, then the opportunity is lost and game changes will be done as they've always been done and we will have absolutely no room to ever complain about PGI not listening to the community, because they gave us a chance and we slapped it away.

If we fail to work out a change to ECM that we can get ~80% of players to agree is something we'd like, then again. We've blown it and have shown that the reason PGI doesn't 'listen to the community' is that we don't know what we're talking about.

So, to sum up.

If we fail to assemble some sort of task force/council/whatever you want to call it.

If we fail to then collect ECM suggestions from the community and refine it down to mechanics PGI can implement and get ~80% of players willing/interested in voting to vote for it.

Then we've made it clear we don't want or deserve nice things. I wouldn't expect this opportunity to then be presented again.

So, if we want any player input on changes made to MWO then we need to get on the stick and make this happen. Not say why it' can't and won't and shouldn't. This is the test case. Even if you don't care about ECM but do care about something else, this is your chance to get from point A to point B.

Let's not bugger this up.

^^^ This, this and much more this.

Really don't give a damn about where it starts, ECM, LRM, BBQ I don't give a damn. Like the man says, it's a chance at last for a reasonable situation to communicate gameplay ideas and affect change and a damn sight better than a poll for 3pv...

Don't bugger it