353 replies to this topic

[Dracol]

Joshua Obrien, on 17 September 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

-snip for space-

A few questions:
Where did that Clan med laser hit come from? It's direct fire which means someone was spotting you.

Did you torso twist or stare at the missiles as they came in?

Did you back up or did you back up as well as move horizontally from the incoming missiles? Backing up directly away from LRMs will not always be effective.

Did you have AMS? Won't completely protect you but does reduce the effectiveness of LRMs.

and a note about the arc, the closer the LRM mech is, the less arc they have.

Edited by Dracol, 17 September 2014 - 05:01 AM.

[Tuefel Hunden]

I was killed by a Dire Wolf in one barrage of UAC5s and Medium Lasers. There was nothing I could do. Please nerf OP'd direct fire weapons. Or at least make so direct fire weapons only work when I am standing still and am afk. Seriously, there is no way I should be able to be hit when moving. I should be able to waltz across an open field and not be hit.

[Joseph Mallan]

PhoenixFire55, on 17 September 2014 - 04:46 AM, said:

And how much of LRM DPS was wasted on disappearing locks? No way to tell. Load a Jager A with two AC20s and then same tonnage of LRMs. The sustained DPS over a long period is higher with LRMs.

Why count damage potential over actual damage? What could be done is not the same as what is being done.

The LRM10 threw 7.4DpS but only hit 20.28% of the time

The AC20 Threw .49 DpS and hit 55.50%

How much damage a weapon can possibly do is not as important as how much damage it ACTUALLY does.

And I would wager that the top players would see the same results. Which is why the choose to remove LRMs.

I wonder can anyone post up Clan AC DpS from their in game stats? I haven't used a Clan ballistic "in game" so I have no data.

[xMintaka]

The picture you posted has you standing, or rather, smoking in the middle of a canyon on Network. They have sloping walls and really are not that tall, so they make incredibly ineffectual cover. As you found out.

In your screenshot there are two places in front of you that would have provided you with cover from said LRM's, had you moved approx. 300m.

Shoot the damn UAV. You get a little XP bonus for doing it, and you don't get rained into next week.


Hardly anyone bothers to look up for UAV's. Get into a habit of scanning the sky every now and then and you will be that much more useful to your team.

[Voivode]

In situations where you are receiving LRM fire without being in LoS of the mech firing them there is one of three things going on.

1) There is a spotter, possibly one using tag. Look around for an enemy light mech. You may see the red line of the tag which will help you. It will most likely be a light mech with ECM. Taking some damage usually scares them off long enough for you to get better cover.

2) There is a UAV. Scan the skies. Look for the telltale "big bright star" of a UAV and shoot it down. Your team will thank you.

3) You are NARCED. Nothing can be done about this except getting better cover. It can be difficult to tell if you are NARCED, so if you see a teammate with the "wifi" looking symbol by their name, help them out by letting them know.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lemming211, on 17 September 2014 - 04:57 AM, said:

Look at the first post. Cored CT, and hit with nothing but LRMs. They should spread more.

Your CT is the most likely place to be hit no matter how random the generator is said to be... Statistics man.

[DocBach]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 05:05 AM, said:

Your CT is the most likely place to be hit no matter how random the generator is said to be... Statistics man.

Combined with hit boxes

[Joseph Mallan]

DocBach, on 17 September 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:

Combined with hit boxes

Yes CT is also normally the largest hit box. Some bigger than others.

[Cranky Poed]

The only thing I hate about LRMs now is ripple fire...

[Lemming211]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 05:05 AM, said:

Your CT is the most likely place to be hit no matter how random the generator is said to be... Statistics man.

That's only true if your theoretical model has a larger CT surface area than other combined areas and an even distribution of hits. Considering that a CT would take up less than half of the surface area of ANY profile*, it would not be the most likely hit. In fact the opposite is true, you would be more likely to NOT hit the CT.
*Okay, maybe not a King Crab.

On the OP's Cataphract, the CT takes up about 1/3rd of the body, and maybe as much as 1/3rd of the total width of the mech (allowing for an illogically sized CT hitbox). If we use 1/3rd as our number, only 1/3rd of the hits (and 1/3rd of the damage) should be hitting the CT. 1/3rd is not the majority. Your other 2/3rds would be the "most likely hit" given an even or "purely random" grouping.

Also, being the most heavily armored location on most mechs, and that OP's mech was not only cored, the left and right torso armor is intact, the conclusion can be made that the situation was more than a slightly disproportionate grouping of CT hits.

But, my original point still stands; even with what I believe to be a statistically illogical grouping of LRM hits, the weapon would be extremely more balanced if given a significantly more shallow angle of attack. It's not supposed to be rocket artillery.

Edited by Lemming211, 17 September 2014 - 05:32 AM.

[Livewyr]

I Zeratul I, on 17 September 2014 - 04:35 AM, said:

Good.

We need more of this.

People need to remember why ECM is necessary, sometimes.

And why its madness to say: ECM should be nerfed.

.

He got reamed by indirect (given the angle required to hit him)

This does need to change, but first step, I think, is keeping the target sharing denial of ECM (while eliminating the free stealth)

Step 2: is increasing missile speed , and removing IDF without Narc/TAG. (The willy nilly IDF spam is most irritating, so make it hard to IDF, but make the missile passable in direct-fire engagements.)

[DocBach]

Yes, and narc tag and Artemis tighten the groups of missiles, and from his death screen some of the missiles has Artemis. If he was still being hit out of Los, chances are he was narc'd or tagged, too

[Livewyr]

DocBach, on 17 September 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

Yes, and narc tag and Artemis tighten the groups of missiles, and from his death screen some of the missiles has Artemis. If he was still being hit out of Los, chances are he was narc'd or tagged, too

That could be too. Stalker on top of ridge perhaps?

[Joseph Mallan]

Lemming211, on 17 September 2014 - 05:13 AM, said:

That's only true if your theoretical model has a larger CT surface area than other combined areas and an even distribution of hits. Considering that a CT would take up less than half of the surface area of ANY profile*, it would not be the most likely hit. In fact the opposite is true, you would be more likely to NOT hit the CT.
*Okay, maybe not a King Crab.

On the OP's Cataphract, the CT takes up about 1/3rd of the body, and maybe as much as 1/3rd of the total width of the mech (allowing for an illogically sized CT hitbox). If we use 1/3rd as our number, only 1/3rd of the hits (and 1/3rd of the damage) should be hitting the CT. 1/3rd is not the majority. Your other 2/3rds would be the "most likely hit" given an even or "purely random" grouping.

Also, being the most heavily armored location on most mechs, and that OP's mech was not only cored, the left and right torso armor is intact, the conclusion can be made that the situation was more than a slightly disproportionate grouping of CT hits.

But, my original point still stands; even with what I believe to be a statistically illogical grouping of LRM hits, the weapon would be extremely more balanced if given a significantly more shallow angle of attack. It's not supposed to be rocket artillery.

not really. under it all there's some form of RNG deciding the flight path of Missiles. and the center of the Mech will be hit the most... unless you are being shot from a side, then your arm or leg will be hit most.

Livewyr, on 17 September 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

He got reamed by indirect (given the angle required to hit him)

This does need to change, but first step, I think, is keeping the target sharing denial of ECM (while eliminating the free stealth)

Step 2: is increasing missile speed , and removing IDF without Narc/TAG. (The willy nilly IDF spam is most irritating, so make it hard to IDF, but make the missile passable in direct-fire engagements.)

We had Indirect fire Before Narc and TAG. You don't take away a staple mechanic cause players don't like it.

[Mercules]

Dracol, on 17 September 2014 - 05:00 AM, said:

Where did that Clan med laser hit come from? It's direct fire which means someone was spotting you.

DOH! How did we all miss that? The last hit was a Directed Fire hit. He was spotted and probably tagged the whole time he was,

Joshua Obrien, on 17 September 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

No spotter was around me since I was in a small crevasse where a turn starts and no one above me looking down. I don't believe I got narced because everyone was so far away I would have seen it coming, but I could be wrong.

Mystery solved, he didn't see the spotter.

[Jody Von Jedi]

Joshua Obrien, on 17 September 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

No spotter was around me since I was in a small crevasse where a turn starts and no one above me looking down. I don't believe I got narced because everyone was so far away I would have seen it coming, but I could be wrong.

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet, so pardon me if I overlooked it.

I believe there was an enemy UAV spotting you. It is extremely frustrating to be rained on by LRMs. It happens to the best of us. I had 2 matches in a row Monday that made me question if something had changed I wasn't aware of. Alas is was just poor positioning on my part.

I try to stay in cover, utilize teams ECM (if available), mount AMS or even Dual AMS. If I'm still getting hit, I'll look up and see if I can spot a UAV. If I do, I take it down. Not every match has an LRM spam happy player, but on occasion it happens to the best of us.

Edit: Note to self: read page 2 before posting duplicate information.

Edited by Jody Von Jedi, 17 September 2014 - 05:51 AM.

[Lootee]

sneeking, on 17 September 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:

they wouldn't be a problem if there weren't so damm many of them, a single 10 15 or 20 rack perhaps two to three 5 racks on balanced builds using lrm as part of a total weapons system along side ballistics and energy and the problem is solved.

Now why do you suppose that is? Could it be because the JesusBox Tax of 1 energy point, 2.5 tons and 3 critical slots is the same whether you have 70 LRMs or a single LRM5?

If you have to pay the tax and not be able to mount other weapons it encourages people to strap on massive LRM50/60/70 rather than the odd LRM15. Why bother paying 5-10 tons for a weapon that most likely will be a useless brick unless you give up more weapon hardpoints plus pay another +25-100% increase in weight.

Blame Paul and the ECM whores for this. Either LRMs are useless or they frak you up. Not much middle ground.

Edited by Lootee, 17 September 2014 - 05:57 AM.

[Livewyr]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 05:43 AM, said:

We had Indirect fire Before Narc and TAG. You don't take away a staple mechanic cause players don't like it.

Well, the problem with LRMs that we have now, as I see it:

The missiles travel much too slow to be effective in most direct fire engagements. (Hence their decidedly lacking presence in higher Elo brackets) But if you increase the speed of them to be able to compete in direct fire engagements (so they fit better in mixed loadouts) without changing the IDF mechanic, they become overpowered. (Warning or not, if they are going to hit you in 1-4 seconds from launch, there is no getting to cover unless you are humping the wall.)

So in order to make them fit a little better in mixed loadouts, I would increase the speed. To offset that speed and keep IDF capability, set it so IDF needs active teamwork. (Teamwork would continue to be OP, much as it is now.)

Also, side note: With increased missile speed, having that TAG on your scout mech becomes more attractive because with the missile arriving faster, you are not poking up for nearly as long to be shot at. One could even pull off TAG'ing for a few seconds and retreating to cover to repeat elsewhere.

Edited by Livewyr, 17 September 2014 - 05:55 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lootee, on 17 September 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

Now why do you suppose that is? Could be because the JesusBox Tax of 1 energy point, 2.5 tons and 3 critical slots is the same whether you have 70 LRMs or a single LRM5?

If you have to pay the tax and not be able to mount other weapons it encourages people to strap on massive LRM50/60/70 rather than the odd LRM15. Why bother paying 5-10 tons for a weapon that most likely will be a useless brick unless you give up more weapon hardpoints plus pay another +25-100% increase in weight.

Blame Paul and the ECM whores for this. Either LRMs are useless or they frak you up. Not much middle ground.

And what, prey tell, would be the result be if we didn't have ECM? Would there be more or less LRMs you reckon?

[Davegt27]

the LRMs don't work as good as they should

they should be fire and forget to be true and modern weapon think of bullet with your name on it
all target information needs to be shared using data link
there should be multiple target lock on with automatic target prioritization

these are more like aerial rockets

rockets = unguided
Missile = guided

Missiles are supposed to come down straight on top of your head (has to do with the angle as the missile approaches its target,)