353 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Livewyr, on 17 September 2014 - 05:54 AM, said:

Well, the problem with LRMs that we have now, as I see it:

The missiles travel much too slow to be effective in most direct fire engagements. (Hence their decidedly lacking presence in higher Elo brackets) But if you increase the speed of them to be able to compete in direct fire engagements (so they fit better in mixed loadouts) without changing the IDF mechanic, they become overpowered. (Warning or not, if they are going to hit you in 1-4 seconds from launch, there is no getting to cover unless you are humping the wall.)

So in order to make them fit a little better in mixed loadouts, I would increase the speed. To offset that speed and keep IDF capability, set it so IDF needs active teamwork. (Teamwork would continue to be OP, much as it is now.)

Also, side note: With increased missile speed, having that TAG on your scout mech becomes more attractive because with the missile arriving faster, you are not poking up for nearly as long to be shot at. One could even pull off TAG'ing for a few seconds and retreating to cover to repeat elsewhere.

Make them faster, but make lock on time longer to simulate the negative modifiers for using a Spotter. Also have Lock disappear the instant a spotter loses sight. Fixed it!

[poopenshire]

Lemming211, on 17 September 2014 - 04:57 AM, said:

Look at the first post. Cored CT, and hit with nothing but LRMs. They should spread more.

He was not talking about this example in his quote, but LRMs in general. everyone now and then yes you can do center torso damange, I do it in my LRMtaro with TAG, Artemis, and Visual combined. I got a feeling this guy is not aware of other things going on. I am willing to wager he didn't see a spotter and was Tagged. I also see Med Lasers hit him, we don't know how many only that it was on the list, this mean someone was much closer than he thought. This is nothing more then a player QQ'ing about being killed when he went in the open and didn't know his surroundings.

[Lootee]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 05:55 AM, said:

And what, prey tell, would be the result be if we didn't have ECM? Would there be more or less LRMs you reckon?

The result would be Paul would have to earn his salary and bring LRMs, especially indirect fired ones back in line with the source material. Direct fired LRMs would need a boost to make them comparable to direct fired ballistics and energy.

Broken indirect fire LRMs lead to broken ECM which leads to packing on huge numbers of LRMs after paying the fixed 1-time JesusBox tax to overcome ECM. It's a vicious cycle stemming from a bad interpretation of the BT rules and general laziness.

Edited by Lootee, 17 September 2014 - 06:07 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lootee, on 17 September 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:

The result would be Paul would have to earn his salary and bring LRMs, especially indirect fired ones back in line with the source material. Direct fired LRMs would need a boost to make them comparable to direct fired ballistics and energy.

Broken LRMs lead to broken ECM which leads to packing on huge numbers of LRMs to overcome ECM. It's a vicious cycle stemming from a bad interpretation if the BT rules.

The source material say that LRMs are dangerous and effective weapons both direct and indirectly launched. Have been that way for 30 years.

Davegt27, on 17 September 2014 - 05:55 AM, said:

the LRMs don't work as good as they should

they should be fire and forget to be true and modern weapon think of bullet with your name on it
all target information needs to be shared using data link
there should be multiple target lock on with automatic target prioritization

these are more like aerial rockets

rockets = unguided
Missile = guided

Missiles are supposed to come down straight on top of your head (has to do with the angle as the missile approaches its target,)

We had this at the introduction of Artemis. There was much crying cause Missiles rained on heads instead of chests. I even thought is was unfair as I was lobbing LRMs at people.

[Dolph Hoskins]

I'd love to take the time to more eloquently put out my objective thoughts on the matter, but please stop requesting that every weapon system in the game be turned into some direct fire, semi pointless, bland, mediocre, friendly to all players weapon system.

Long range missiles with a firing logic and automated targeting are supposed to be indirect fire, they are supposed to fly up and over as many obstructions as possible. There are supposed to be electrical counter measures to work against such weapon systems.

If you have a serious personal issue with indirect fire systems you should not play any militaristic style games.

[Lootee]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:

The source material say that LRMs are dangerous and effective weapons both direct and indirectly launched. Have been that way for 30 years.

Except indirect fired LRMs have a default penalty to hit plus another penalty to hit if the firing unit moves even an inch plus another penalty if the spotting unit moves an inch plus penalties for terrain plus a penalty for range plus another penalty if the spotting unit attacks. And then IF you manage to hit you check the cluster munitions table to see what fraction of the missiles do damage.

None of which exists here. Indirect LRMs are way too effective compared to TT. If they toned down indirect fire here, they could rework that draconian on-off implementation of ECM and maybe you'd see fewer massive boats and more mixed loadouts.

Edited by Lootee, 17 September 2014 - 06:17 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 05:03 AM, said:

The LRM10 threw 7.4DpS but only hit 20.28% of the time

As long as the lock is kept it hits 100% of the time.

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 05:03 AM, said:

The AC20 Threw .49 DpS and hit 55.50%

And 25-30% out of that is out of full damage range. Plus, I think its actually 4.9 not .49.

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 05:03 AM, said:

And I would wager that the top players would see the same results. Which is why the choose to remove LRMs.

Nothing to do with DPS. If you can't aim you bring LRMs, if you can you bring direct fire. As simple as that.

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 05:05 AM, said:

Your CT is the most likely place to be hit no matter how random the generator is said to be... Statistics man.

If you stand still 95% of LRMs hit your CT. They should spread FAR more even if you stand still, let alone torso twist and move. They don't.

[Lynx7725]

Joshua Obrien, on 17 September 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

The picture below is what happened. After torso twisting to spread out the damage it still didn't help much since my CT got eaten away.

You guys missed something. He was hit by at least 4 LRM sources -- you can't mix Artemis and non-Artemis launchers, nor Clan and IS launchers. Given the difference in IS Launchers, probably 5 or 6 LRM sources. Plus a direct fire hit by a Clan mech, meaning he had been spotted at some point (possibly not related though).

I.e., OP got hit by coordinated fire from anything from 1/3 to 1/2 of a full team.

EDIT: Also, being hit by that many LRM sources means they are likely more spread out, meaning the LRM trajectory is going to be different per stream, meaning his cover from one stream would not stop another stream, and if he was moving trying to find cover thinking it's from one LRM stream, he's going to expose himself to more fire.

Edited by Lynx7725, 17 September 2014 - 06:21 AM.

[SaltBeef]

He got hit by 3 mechs!! a IS LRM boat / a Clan mech with artemis and a clan mech w/o artemis and was within range of the CERmed.



I stand corrected a 4th mech another IS mech with artemis. I am afraid you may have been Narc spotted.

Edited by SaltBeef, 17 September 2014 - 04:58 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

PhoenixFire55, on 17 September 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

As long as the lock is kept it hits 100% of the time.



And 25-30% out of that is out of full damage range. Plus, I think its actually 4.9 not .49.



Nothing to do with DPS. If you can't aim you bring LRMs, if you can you bring direct fire. As simple as that.



If you stand still 95% of LRMs hit your CT. They should spread FAR more even if you stand still, let alone torso twist and move. They don't.

i have not seen 95% and I do challenge your assertion. I figure it is more likely 50-60 % which may or may not be to high
I am not opposed to being hit with that many missiles when I am begging to be bombed out of existence.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lootee, on 17 September 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

Except indirect fired LRMs have a default penalty to hit plus another penalty to hit if the firing unit moves even an inch plus another penalty if the spotting unit moves an inch plus penalties for terrain plus a penalty for range plus another penalty if the spotting unit attacks. And then IF you manage to hit you check the cluster munitions table to see what fraction of the missiles do damage.

None of which exists here. Indirect LRMs are way too effective compared to TT. If they toned down indirect fire here, they could rework that draconian on-off implementation of ECM and maybe you'd see fewer massive boats and more mixed loadouts.

Which can be simulated with locking delays and easy lock loss. And here you have Multiple AMS able to stack reducing LRM fire to a trickle if your team keeps a a good dispersion. I have seen 5-6 AMS combine to reduce an LRM40 to smoke. Do that with a Ballistic. Let me shoot down the incoming shells so they don't hurt so much.

[Sorbic]

I love when I'm getting hit by LRMs but can't aim high (generally no DF arm weapons) enough to take out a UAV. Usually calls for someone else to do so go unanswered.

[Josef Koba]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 03:53 AM, said:

he is complaining about being the target of massed fire here. He is the target of at least 2 missile boats.

At least four LRM boats/carriers as I see it. There are IS LRMs (5, 10, 20), one IS LRM with Artemis (15), a Clan LRM without Artemis (10), and a Clan LRM with Artemis (15). Since mechs either have all Artemis or none, that makes at least four separate LRM throwers - obviously more if the 5,10, and 20 were on different platforms.

Over the last week or so, I've noticed a substantial increase in the amount of LRMs in the air. In some matches I've counted five distinct LRM boat arcs coming from the enemy. It's a beautiful sight watching them streak across the sky (have a few screen shots), but equally terrifying. It's also quite frustrating at times, but it is what it is. If you get locked or NARC'd, well, you could be in for a very rough time. You could have, what, a couple hundred missiles lobbed your way as soon as you poke your head out? And some of these boats have substantial endurance in terms of ammunition, so waiting them out isn't always an option. They don't need to have high accuracy; they can lob and lob because even a couple of successful salvos may well yield crippling damage. They make you keep your head down and limit your maneuver; they're comrades can move with relative impunity and flush you out, and thus into the sight of the LRM boats, or kill you outright. I have taken to using Radar Derp on any assault I pilot. That said, Canyon isn't the best map for cover, especially not in the ravines. The plateaus have a bit more cover with the rock formations, but you can still be pinched in pretty well. But falling or dropping into the ravines isn't a guarantee that you'll break lock, and even if you do the flight path may still get you. And there's a lot of NARC out there these days. And some matches you draw the luck and have three or more ECM mechs. Other times you don't.

Personally, I'm enjoying the challenge, though I do think that perhaps four or five dedicated LRM boats is a bit much. That said, I hear that LRMs aren't used much in competitive matches - and we all know I'm not at that tier.

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 06:26 AM, said:

Which can be simulated with locking delays and easy lock loss. And here you have Multiple AMS able to stack reducing LRM fire to a trickle if your team keeps a a good dispersion. I have seen 5-6 AMS combine to reduce an LRM40 to smoke. Do that with a Ballistic. Let me shoot down the incoming shells so they don't hurt so much.

Imagine how ineffective LRMs would be if you could use your lasers to shoot them. I'm not advocating that but it would be hilarious and satisfying to lase the heck out of some LRMs.

[Joseph Mallan]

Josef Koba, on 17 September 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

Imagine how ineffective LRMs would be if you could use your lasers to shoot them. I'm not advocating that but it would be hilarious and satisfying to lase the heck out of some LRMs.

I know and Clans actually have a Laser AMS system on TT.

[Mcgral18]

I Zeratul I, on 17 September 2014 - 04:35 AM, said:

Good.

We need more of this.

People need to remember why ECM is necessary, sometimes.

And why its madness to say: ECM should be nerfed.

.

We need to base balance on those who ignore cover, and stand in the open?

Is that why my pulse lasers have been nerfed?

Lemming211, on 17 September 2014 - 04:57 AM, said:

Look at the first post. Cored CT, and hit with nothing but LRMs. They should spread more.

They do spread, but you can't facetank LRMs and expect them to spread, you have to torso twist. I've gotten down to under 30% in a STD Banshee when, very rarely, I get caught in the open. It took nearly a full minute to take out a mech. That's terrible.
That was before the recycle nerfs, so now it might just take over a minute.

[Xenon Codex]

SaltBeef, on 17 September 2014 - 06:18 AM, said:

He got hit by 3 mechs!! a IS LRM boat / a Clan mech with artemis and a clan mech w/o artemis and was within range of the CERmed.

You forgot one, an IS LRM with Artemis. So at least 4 different mechs, and probably more considering the variety of launchers (LRM 20, 10, & 5). Pretty impressive actually!

The smaller launchers, especially with Artemis, do tend to focus more on the CT, which I why I prefer a few LRM5's over a single 15 or 20. Kind of similar to SRMs, I don't feel Artemis is all the important with the smaller launchers.

[Lemming211]

Too many people to respond to each.

1. I was discussing theory, not just OP's situation.
2. I still don't believe that CT hits are statistically logical, and 100% indirect LRMs is OP. For the sake of balance, I'd like to see one of them go. I'd like both, but I'll be happy with one.
3. With LRMs working in their current state (high ballistic arc), what's the point of artillery (Arrow IV)?
4. If LRMs are supposed to be modern fire-and-forget why not SRMs? What is the point of SSRMs? Does Artemis make sense if it only gives a small grouping bonus?
5. TAG/NARC spotting: I have no problems with indirect fire.
6. C3 was supposed to be the "spotting system", but modern technology has made the concept obsolete. What now?
7. AMS is supposed to be the LRM defense, not ECM. AMS is not effective against this kind of barrage.

I have a problem with the "modern tech" argument. Being that our real world tech is capable of putting a TAG-equivalent system in the air for 12 hours at a time that would easily cover the battlefields we experience, everyone should be TAG'd 100% of the time. See how that gets out of hand? Changes should be made for the sake of balance, not for the sake of "reality".

[Lynx7725]

Another item. His time in Battle was less than 2 minutes. Which is enough time for an experienced team to group up from the spawn, but not quite enough for them to spread out so much -- which means the opposite team is in support distance of each other. That the OP popped a ridge so early likely means he was the only visible target, and with everybody keyed to fire, he likely drew the entire team's attention.

[Lemming211]

Mcgral18, on 17 September 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

We need to base balance on those who ignore cover, and stand in the open?

Is that why my pulse lasers have been nerfed?


They do spread, but you can't facetank LRMs and expect them to spread, you have to torso twist. I've gotten down to under 30% in a STD Banshee when, very rarely, I get caught in the open. It took nearly a full minute to take out a mech. That's terrible.
That was before the recycle nerfs, so now it might just take over a minute.

You can twist all you want, with enough arc it's not facetanking. It's death from above with the CT heavily favored for "targeting". In OP's case he was behind a large wall, not taking direct fire. How far to you have to torso twist before you're not getting hit on top? Your other option is rear, again with the center favored, you're dead sooner.

[Joseph Mallan]

PhoenixFire55, on 17 September 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

As long as the lock is kept it hits 100% of the time.



And 25-30% out of that is out of full damage range. Plus, I think its actually 4.9 not .49.



Nothing to do with DPS. If you can't aim you bring LRMs, if you can you bring direct fire. As simple as that.



If you stand still 95% of LRMs hit your CT. They should spread FAR more even if you stand still, let alone torso twist and move. They don't.

Not all missiles hit all the time. i would wager the craptastic damage of LRMs is due to 3-5 missiles missing from the LRM10 (I'd like to see the numbers PGI has)

I don't shoot my AC20 outside of 250M I like the full on thump from my BFH.

I can aim, I bring a mix cause I may not have LoS(assault jock remember) and a friendly could use some help while I am closing to have eyes on target.

I am liking this discussion Phoenix. No name calling, exchanging points. Its pretty cool.