164 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

TopDawg, on 18 September 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

I did not mean that people shouldn't express their thoughts and feelings (in fact I'm a huge proponent of the free exchange of ideas, speech, etc). Back in closed beta I left many a feedback thread/post that weren't heeded/or listened to; but I'd do it again, as I have very little other recourse to effect change.

I've been saying this in a few places lately, but the reality is that most people (players, developers, and designers alike) just don't know what's best for the game. Balancing isn't easy. If it was, every game would be well balanced and a huge success - that simply isn't the case.

Putting aside the fact that PGI touted e-sports (and maybe it's still on the plate?), balanced games that are fun to play tend to have longer shelf lives, whereas games that are not balanced and are not fun to play, do not. For this reason alone, I am of the opinion that it is ultimately the dev's responsibility to promote healthy gameplay that leads to the longevity of the game.

And, regardless of all that, I typically enjoy well-reasoned discussion anyway, and in that end I hope those links are helpful to you!

(As for balance, I don't think Hoax is saying for more Clan Mechs to accept Endo (probably the reverse actually), and that buffing the Summoner et al to be on par with a Timberwolf only exacerbates the current balance problem(s) between IS and Clan.)

the Highlighted is absolutely true. And as such, having differing points of view discussed in a civil manner helps, the folks making the game make a better educated choice. will it be the right choice? Hopefully. I know what I find fun. You know what You find fun. They could be diametrically opposite, Now who does the maker make happy? Or should he/they find a middle ground that gives both parties something? All I can do is give what I think is the best advice I have, and let the guys getting paid to make the game sort it out.

[Hoax415]

Warma, on 18 September 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

I sincirely hope that this is not yet set in stone. If it is really the case, they should begin balancing the technologies pretty aggressively.

Well now I understand part of the problem. This is set in completely solid f'ing stone man. 12 clan mechs on one team. 12 IS mechs on the other team. Its done. It already happened and was verified as being how CW will work.

10v12 was raised again and again and utterly completely shot down by PGI.

Everything I've posted comes from the position of how can we make 12v12 pure IS no mixtech no salvage mechs versus pure Clan even numbers work.

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I do not want a slow, sluggish TW which cannot torso twist even 90 degrees or something of that order any more than I want a Summoner that feels like that pile of refuse I mentioned earlier. A 10-damage CERPPC or a 5-damage CERML is a million times preferrable to that.

Personal opinion, I can't tell you how to feel. But again if you nerf weapon systems you are hitting mechs that are currently balanced and making them not balanced:
-NVA, ADR, SMN, WHK & KFX all get nerfed every time you nerf weapons. Those mechs are all in pretty good IS vs Clan balance.

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Even if we go 12v12, the clans can still be nerfed here by forcing them to take smaller mechs. Even that is a better way to go.

I'm in 100% agreement. Even if 12v10 is dead I'd like to see other team composition balancing avenues explored.

3/3/3/3 vs 4/4/2/2 or some other variation using the weight class system.

Or better yet using tonnage and giving IS 700 tons and Clan less than 700 or whatever numbers you come up with and tweaking and tweaking until the results seem good.

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I am strongly of the opinion, that you have utterly failed to make the case about TW. Could you explain in a few short words, how you would nerf the TW and SC sufficiently to make them balanced without wrecking the whole game and making those mechs really unfun to play. How would you then nerf the Cauldron Born and Night Gyr in the future?

I don't worry about future mechs right now. But obviously whatever is done to the TW would have to be done to a mech with similar power coming from the TT (max weight class tonnage, endo+ff, clan).

As for what quirks exactly? I'm not a game designer. I won't claim to have the right set of answers for that. I just know its the correct place to start rather than messing up the balance that is working currently.

I'm asking them to fix two chassis: the TW and the SCR. And I feel the SCR isn't going to take much to be close enough to the IS 55 tonners.

You are asking them to fix 7: ON1, SMN, CTF, NVA, TBT, CN9 and HBK. Plus several of the wave 2 mechs that will not have Endo+FF.

You tell me which seems like a better plan?

Additionally remember that every buff means faster TTK when those mechs are on the field. We don't need faster TTK.

Edited by Hoax415, 18 September 2014 - 10:27 AM.

[Violent Nick]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 04:39 AM, said:

Choosing a faction should influence what weapons of war you bring. I would be very disappointed by a war game that allowed US soldiers to bring AKs and T-55 Tanks to the dance.

Interesting idea... Let's apply this to a real war, say Vietnam:

The US could have taken AK47s etc if they really wanted (or a replicated weapon)... and to be fair, had they chosen AK47s over M16s in Vietnam, history would most likely be a bit different!

In this scenario, I wanna be the Viet-cong; using my savvy and more appropriate weapons to win. You can run around with awesome M16s made of fibre-glass that jam when they come into contact with sand if you really want to. Me? ... Na, I'm not gonna bring sub-standard crap to a war.

No Endo/Ferro - no deal.

Edited by Nick86, 18 September 2014 - 10:26 AM.

[Xarian]

Hoax415, on 18 September 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

The problem lies not with the SMN but with the TW and with the 35/55/75/100 system itself.

The L/M/H/A system basically guarantees that 100t >> 85t every time, and 75t >> 70t every time, assuming everything else equal (quirks hardpoints etc). Even if that weren't the case, the SMN wouldn't be equal to the TBR with an extra 5 tons due to hardpoints and locked jets (both mech balancing issues) as well as increased available tonnage due to having ES instead of FF.

I'd like to see a place for the SMN, and I'd like to see a reason for IS mechs to use FF instead of Endo. There are basically two routes:
(1) Make FF better for highly mobile mechs
(2) Make FF better for less-mobile (i.e. tanky) mechs

Judging by the fact that the "tanky" mechs mostly have Endo and not FF, I think it'd be better overall to differentiate them as follows:
(1) Endosteel stays the same. It grants a big tonnage improvement and costs a bunch of critical slots.
(2) FF increases jump jet efficiency

[Xarian]

Warma, on 18 September 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

I'm not sure about this. On IS mechs, FF and Endo are used to reduce the power level differences of weight classes. You can look it in the way, that at about 50 tons, mechs can no longer use FF but most can always use endo. Thus lights and the lightest mediums get an extra ton of free space.

In Clan mechs, the same applies, except that evertyhing under 75 tons should use both. After that, slots are probably going to get a bit tighter and you might only use endo, with the exception of special cases like DW, in which it is sometimes optimal to use neither. This means, that all properly built clan heavies get an extra 1-2 tons of free space.

The amount of slots taken by Clan Endo and FF is probably too little, as they are too much of a no-brainer, but this is what we are stuck with.

I'd never run FF on a Summoner if Endo was available. Not enough space.

[Warma]

Hoax415, on 18 September 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

As for what quirks exactly? I'm not a game designer. I won't claim to have the right set of answers for that. I just know its the correct place to start rather than messing up the balance that is working currently.

I'm a bit iffy about that. To me, this sounds like you don't actually have any kind of an answer, while I do.

If all clan mechs are allowed endo+ferro, you can nerf the weapons and the mechs will still be fine. In other words, my solution actually works and it keeps the mechs balanced. Both against each other (and possibly against IS if we nerf the weapons).

Balancing CW Clan vs IS in the matchmaker is a much better solution than ruining present and future mechs. That way you really don't have to break anything.

[Hoax415]

You can fit 4 ML and 2 AC5 on a SMN with Endo + FF despite the jets. I think you even get 1-2 extra DHS.

[Joseph Mallan]

Warma, on 18 September 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

I'm not sure about this. On IS mechs, FF and Endo are used to reduce the power level differences of weight classes. You can look it in the way, that at about 50 tons, mechs can no longer use FF but most can always use endo. Thus lights and the lightest mediums get an extra ton of free space.

In Clan mechs, the same applies, except that evertyhing under 75 tons should use both. After that, slots are probably going to get a bit tighter and you might only use endo, with the exception of special cases like DW, in which it is sometimes optimal to use neither. This means, that all properly built clan heavies get an extra 1-2 tons of free space.

The amount of slots taken by Clan Endo and FF is probably too little, as they are too much of a no-brainer, but this is what we are stuck with.

This is a good really good post.

One of the things that get lost by most players is that Some Clans are more Resource strapped than others, and advanced components cost more resources (or money and resources) BattleTech tries to apply that thinking and even sleazy deal making by money grubbing companies to the design process of the vehicles, so it feels like a Military paying $500 for a Ball Peen Hammer!

[Andi Nagasia]

i dont know how i feel about unlocking Endo/FF and the reason is,

if you can upgrade then others would also beable to down grade, ether may cause problems to the Omni-system,
(standard to endo -14 slots, but i want to go from Endo to standard? and my Omni-mech doesn't have 14 fixed slots?)

i do feel that JJ should be optional on Nova/Summoner, that would give both 5tons free,
i feel that would help more than allowing Endo/FF,

[TopDawg]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

the Highlighted is absolutely true. And as such, having differing points of view discussed in a civil manner helps, the folks making the game make a better educated choice. will it be the right choice? Hopefully. I know what I find fun. You know what You find fun. They could be diametrically opposite, Now who does the maker make happy? Or should he/they find a middle ground that gives both parties something? All I can do is give what I think is the best advice I have, and let the guys getting paid to make the game sort it out.

Slightly off MWO topic, but on topic in terms of balancing and catering to audiences, it's a very real problem in game design. A game just isn't going to appeal to everyone. The AAA gaming industry (really this should be read as the publishers) pump out sequel after sequel without much change, and rather generic mechanics, in order to appeal to the widest possible audience(s). It's safe, and people obviously buy it (or they wouldn't do it). If a game is too niche (like those of yesteryear which got gaming going to begin with), it limits the amount of units they can sell. Which, they need to sell a lot in order to recoup the development costs (typically of which the advertising costs are the largest). This is why indie gaming and kickstarters have become very popular in recent years (and that's not to say that those don't have their own problems, and that they can fail to deliver a promised/good game).

But I digress, and I would probably argue that trying to appease both groups (unless able to effectively separate them out - which is also tricky because you don't really want two sets of game rules applying to the same things) is just a recipe for upsetting/frustrating both groups. Ideally the game is designed in such a way where those differing elements can naturally emerge to appeal to the varying audiences/interests. But it can be really hard to balance for, and especially so if you don't have that in mind from the outset (I mean look at WoW for instance, they have their lowest sub numbers in quite a while, yet are still miles ahead of everyone else - and part of that, I would argue, is from a lack of identity and trying to appeal to everyone).

[Joseph Mallan]

Nick86, on 18 September 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

Interesting idea... Let's apply this to a real war, say Vietnam:

The US could have taken AK47s etc if they really wanted (or a replicated weapon)... and to be fair, had they chosen AK47s over M16s in Vietnam, history would most likely be a bit different!

In this scenario, I wanna be the Viet-cong; using my savvy and more appropriate weapons to win. You can run around with awesome M16s made of fibre-glass that jam when they come into contact with sand if you really want to. Me? ... Na, I'm not gonna bring sub-standard crap to a war.

No Endo/Ferro - no deal.

I am sure the soldiers that were carrying those M-16A1s (including my Cousin) would have loved to have something different as well. In fact they were regulated to Training Bootcamp cadets when I was at MCRD San Diego. But Echo Company 2/5 had the M-16A2 and it was a good step up. However the S.A.W. was a jamming pile of paper weight! No choice in going back to the M-60 either.

Clan Commands are supposed to be even more rigid thinking that the Corps was/is/will be(?).

If joining one of the (mythical) House Units called for me to use Stock and that was the only way to play as a 10th Lyran Guard, I'd have to choose between flexibility of a Merc command, or the chance to be in a elite Canon unit. I already know which I would choose.

[terrycloth]

You'd revolt and overthrow the government, of course.

Oh wait, Lyran. Not FWL. Nevermind.

[Zypher]

I'm not sure I understand some of the arguments...

Lets say we have two different 50 ton mechs, their chassis look different enough and the hard points are slightly different. Aside from that the only difference is one carries endo steel and the other doesn't. The last assumption would be that neither chassis would run out of space before it ran out of tonnage.

If one had to compare the two chassis based of stats alone it's inarguable fact wise that endo steel is better.

[Kain Demos]

Nick86, on 18 September 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

Interesting idea... Let's apply this to a real war, say Vietnam:

The US could have taken AK47s etc if they really wanted (or a replicated weapon)... and to be fair, had they chosen AK47s over M16s in Vietnam, history would most likely be a bit different!

In this scenario, I wanna be the Viet-cong; using my savvy and more appropriate weapons to win. You can run around with awesome M16s made of fibre-glass that jam when they come into contact with sand if you really want to. Me? ... Na, I'm not gonna bring sub-standard crap to a war.

No Endo/Ferro - no deal.

This is off-topic but if you think small arms are what decided anything in that war your knowledge of history is woefully abysmal.

[Tombstoner]

Zypher, on 18 September 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

I'm not sure I understand some of the arguments...

Lets say we have two different 50 ton mechs, their chassis look different enough and the hard points are slightly different. Aside from that the only difference is one carries endo steel and the other doesn't. The last assumption would be that neither chassis would run out of space before it ran out of tonnage.

If one had to compare the two chassis based of stats alone it's inarguable fact wise that endo steel is better.

But is 2.5 tons the game breaking difference between a popular and unpopular mech. I don't think so. hard point matter a great deal. the summoner has a mix of both in the arms. Thus not a great min maxing meta mech. The nova is gimped because of house rules set down by PGI. if your going to build a mech under the ghost heat paradigm you don't add in 12 cerml. if i get one first think i'd do is make it so i can alpha with out killing myself. huge amount of wasted tonnage. that better spent on heat sinks.

This is a TT game being ported into a FPS. stuff is going to not work well. My personal favorite mech is the Awesome. 3 PPC's suck... they dont in TT. Non of these mechs were ever designed to be min/ maxed..... none of them. They are made the way they are specifically to be different. Take the fire starter..... its got nothing but flamers..... That is until it got translated by PGI and for lots of energy hard point. Now its a very different mech.

Thinking in terms of this mech is under performing this mech is not a good way to think about it. I like X because its X not because its better then Y.

[Grimlox]

Didn't read the thread but maybe someone else already suggested since Clan endo is so good with taking less slots maybe allow Clan to put on Endo but have i take 14 slots on any models that it wasn't endo from the factory. Haven't given it much thought but with the potential balance concerns this seems like a happy medium.

It's not loretastic but then again not being able to swap the internals on clan mechs doesn't match the lore either does it?

[Hoax415]

Not being able to swap the internals on any mech matches the lore. Probably well under 10% of IS mechs would ever get a refit to an endo structure they didn't come with. It is possible and did happen because IS mechs are often personalized or rebuilt over time after getting almost destroyed in various battles but it was hardly a common thing super double especially during the time period we are meant to be in.

Endo is expensive and a pita to replace if damaged so it was highly impractical for front line units to use mechs with endo because they would not be able to field repair them and it was too expensive and it was too time consuming if they even did have the materials, tech and knowledge.

The rules for clan mechs didn't even allow it.

Since you sort of seemed to be asking.

Edited by Hoax415, 18 September 2014 - 05:50 PM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Oh ffs.

i go to sleep and it turns into a clan/is balance arguement.

the current balance between a summoner and an IS heavy DOES NOT MATTER in this arguement, because no one in their right mind would EVER take a summoner to a fight, when they can bring a Timberwolf, which is empirically better. Improving the Summoner to Timberwolf levels simply means people can bring summoners if they want, increasing variety and doing nothing to overall balance. BECAUSE THE POWER OF A MECH THAT IS NEVER USED DOES NOT MATTER!!!!

If clan/IS balance is off, (and im not saying it is or it isnt, not what im trying to argue) then further balance passes on the weapons need to happen (or IS mechs given good quirks, whatever). Having a few chassis be standout better than the others due to lottery wins with the correct setup of internal structure is simply bad for clan variety. I do not understand how that is arguable. (note that i suggested earlier that allowing chassis to REMOVE it might indeed cause balance issues, and said it should only be addable, and not removeable from mechs that start with it, and that there needs to be a caveat for the Direwolf)

Edit: i do also agree that the 35/55/75/100 thing isnt ideal, and mechs lower down in their weight class probably need some positive quirks to help them compete (and give them flavour).

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 19 September 2014 - 12:24 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Widowmaker1981, on 18 September 2014 - 02:36 AM, said:

but something needs to be done, or the Timberwolf and Stormcrow (and soon the Fenris) will forever be streets ahead of all other clan mechs

Why should it be different on the Clan side? It's the same with IS 'Mechs, some are just better then others.

[Widowmaker1981]

Thorn Hallis, on 19 September 2014 - 12:22 AM, said:

Why should it be different on the Clan side? It's the same with IS 'Mechs, some are just better then others.

which is ALSO a bad thing, and the bad IS chassis should get positive quirks to help them out. However IS do not have this extra layer of balance issues to deal with. (on top of hardpoints, hardpoint placement and hitboxes, which clan mechs also have to deal with).

The Hardlocked clan engines also benefit some mechs more than others.. the Stormcrow and Warhawk are the only ones with an engine size id use, given the choice... however that is REALLY needed for balancing, so im not trying to suggest that is changed.