231 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

And ultimately this boils down to something Stan Lee once said:

"You dont make the hulk breath fire"

Its a simple addage to live by when youre working with established IPs.

[STEF_]

I can only say that MAXTECH is the best BT TT book EVER...
Truly a must, imo.

And this we play is NOT a whatsoever giant robot videogame.

We need to bring MWO toward BT, because now it's too much "casual", imo.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 19 September 2014 - 10:23 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 19 September 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

Not more than that if it goes into MMO world.
Actually you guys are on island. From more than 1kk player there is only 600 around the forum. We can make a voting anouncment do we need that or not? Guess who gonna be on tiny island than?

If you dont have the time or inclination to get on the forum, youre abstaining by default. You have no say.

In the FORUM, the TT purists, or at least the ones who at least see value in some of the rules (though they may disagree on which ones from the plethora of books and rules that have come out over the years) I believe, out number the corerule ignore people.

Stefka Kerensky, on 19 September 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

I can only say that MAXTECH is the best BT TT book EVER...
Truly a must, imo.

I actually dont like it. I dont like the different armor types, rotary autocannons or much of the stuff in Maxtech, but I do see how some of its rules, like the solaris rules, can apply here in MWO.

But to each their own. I certainly wouldnt throw a fit over reactive armor or a rotary autocannon...especially if we also got a TT heat scale and pin point accuracy was a thing of the past.

If you want vibrabombs and thunder lrms, thats cool too. Im not a fan, but as said, to each their own, I dont have to mount it on my mech. I dont like MRMs. I dont have to use them,

[Koniving]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 September 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

Nooo. Not necessarily true. Though Canon is not rules, There is plenty of times where Pilot Bob switched this that and the other to the main trigger to fire something while cooling off, One trigger pull and bang.

On TT you say what you are firing then roll dice, there is not separation enforced at all.

I'm aware, but that doesn't work out with the threshold system. In the lore you have PPCs that can take a few seconds to charge up, and pulse lasers that fire like machine guns, medium lasers that require about 3 shots to do what would essentially be 5 damage, there's even an AC 20 that requires "100 shots" to complete a single firing cycle. Weapon variants. Of particular note there are ACs that should instantly destroy some limbs, yet it takes about 12 out of 15 shots to do what would effectively be 16 damage...from an AC/20.

Now in the rules mathematically up until a shutdown is guaranteed you can break it down to be less than 30 heat generated (with cooling, second by second) at any given time. Once a shutdown is absolutely unavoidable, then it can no longer be broken down and separate as such.

Now, interestingly enough on the random roll chances for shutdown, it can be broken down in such a way that 30 threhsold is completely avoided but... however... this simulates human error, where the pilot rushed the weapon systems.

You also have PPCs that charge up to fire, various beam durations. These all help but of course.

Then half the time in lore the heatsinks don't cool by the second but by thermal absorbtion where you fire X amount of heat and the heatsinks get absorb and get rid of 75% of anything within their range limits and dissipate it over X seconds, slowly absorbing more as it gets rid of the heat it already had. Sadly that's quite a bit too complex for a game of this design to do.

Not to mention it'd be confusing to players. You have 20 SHS. You fire 20 heat, but only went up by 5 heat. But if you fired the same amount of heat immediately, you'd jump up to 25 heat because the heatsinks are still busy and you'd have no idea why. This is why most real time BT games such as MW break down heat as a second by second cooldown rate instead.

Edited by Koniving, 19 September 2014 - 10:34 AM.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

DeathjesterUK, on 19 September 2014 - 12:03 AM, said:

.

That heat scaling might work for knowledgeable or skilled players who already know the info or don't mind memorizing, who want an upgraded version of a tabletop game. I don't know that its something that would work for everyone.

I dislike the idea of having movement hampered by heat. Light mechs and meds which heavily rely on speed to retreat from bad situations would have their most important attribute significantly reduced if they fired a few lasers. If a light wanted to successfully retreat, they would have to hold their fire, which is ridiculous.

Ammo explosions via heat is something that is far better suited to a dice game than a first person shooter. Firing weapons and spontaneously having your mech explode because a random dice roll determined your ammo exploded is a terrible idea for a video game.

Due to the complexity, new players would also find it fustrating. It would reduce the retention of new players which is vital this game continuing.

Ghost heat is better than anything on that FASA graphic. :/

.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 19 September 2014 - 10:29 AM.

[STEF_]

Mahoromatic, on 19 September 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

This is not a Table Top, this is MMO. Wrong idea for wrong game. If topic starter just wants to show how useful he is, he picked a wrong forum, wrong community and wrong topic to talk about.

You know that MWO is been made for BT fans, right?

[KraftySOT]

BLOOD WOLF, on 19 September 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

you do realize boating is not just 8ppc's or missles.

SRM boats are balanced here, and laser boats are over nerfed. MG boats dont exist and AC boats are pretty rare too. AC boats, like the Annihilator, are fine too. I dont see a problem there other than every weapon hitting the same pixel. Theres less of that with ACs thankfully already in the game, though its not very pronounced (my 4 ac2 banshee, the 4 ac pellets rarely hit the same location at extreme distance)

I liked in the Virtual World pods you could overcharge your weapons and such.

The 2xER PPC nova was my favorite, cut power from the engine and the two lasers and put it into heat sinks and the PPCs.

[STEF_]

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

If you dont have the time or inclination to get on the forum, youre abstaining by default. You have no say.

In the FORUM, the TT purists, or at least the ones who at least see value in some of the rules (though they may disagree on which ones from the plethora of books and rules that have come out over the years) I believe, out number the corerule ignore people.




I actually dont like it. I dont like the different armor types, rotary autocannons or much of the stuff in Maxtech, but I do see how some of its rules, like the solaris rules, can apply here in MWO.

But to each their own. I certainly wouldnt throw a fit over reactive armor or a rotary autocannon...especially if we also got a TT heat scale and pin point accuracy was a thing of the past.

If you want vibrabombs and thunder lrms, thats cool too. Im not a fan, but as said, to each their own, I dont have to mount it on my mech. I dont like MRMs. I dont have to use them,

Esactly! The good thing of maxtech is that you can choose how to customize, and which rules to use or not.
At that time it blew my mind... a lot of stuff in there

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

If you dont have the time or inclination to get on the forum, youre abstaining by default. You have no say.

In the FORUM, the TT purists, or at least the ones who at least see value in some of the rules (though they may disagree on which ones from the plethora of books and rules that have come out over the years) I believe, out number the corerule ignore people.

What kind a "values" you alking about? Stop billcraping people. You just want to riun the game covering your atempts in some "values" taking from the blue.


When some one says that Gauss and PPC need to be rolled back, you start your bullcrap about Counter Strike where most of you does suck.
When some one want's to stop Clan nerf and buff IS a bit you grow-up the wave of whine. You like a bunch of old womens, who don't know what they need. Get used to that players will be more ignorant to you, much more than me now.

Edited by Hagoromo Gitsune, 19 September 2014 - 10:32 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Stefka Kerensky, on 19 September 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

Esactly! The good thing of maxtech is that you can choose how to customize, and which rules to use or not.
At that time it blew my mind... a lot of stuff in there

I will agree with that, I was blown away by how much it added and the chances it took. It took years for me to not really like it. But yeah you can choose what you want and dont want. Alot of stuff in it was very cool. I was wowed when I first cracked it open.

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 19 September 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

What kind a "values" you alking about? Stop billcraping people. You just want to riun the game covering your atempts in some "values" taking from the blue.

Nope. I dont want to ruin the game. I want to make the game better, more BT based, more sim like, more challenging, more rewarding, more in line with other games, maybe get us to Steam, Esports....that would be very cool.

I want to see a mechwarrior computer game shown the same love, with the same presence, at things like Dragon*Con and GenCon, as the battletech table top.

I want to see the table top tournaments going down in the same hotel lobby as the PC game tournament. I want those two communities to be one n the same. Unity and success.

[Tombstoner]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 September 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

And yet people here and in those shooters feel that are better than real life?

I wanna hit what I am aiming at?

So does the US Navy!

The only time this should happen in a mw game is standing still in a clan mech using an ERLL and targeting computer. at that point id be completely ok with pin point alphas. I would be arguing for it if the game didn't have that level of precision. lasers should be the most accurate weapons for long range attacks followed by ballistic, gauss suffers from the same COF issues as auto cannons but some improvement due to speed.

[KraftySOT]

The battletech people need to be at the E3's right there with PGI promoting Mechwarrior Online. And PGI should be at Dragon*con, helping pimp the table top.

Instead of estranged cousins, these two communities should be one solid community.

[Lefty Lucy]

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

[color=#959595]In the FORUM, the TT purists, or at least the ones who at least see value in some of the rules (though they may disagree on which ones from the plethora of books and rules that have come out over the years) I believe, out number the corerule ignore people.[/color]

The problem is that you want to implement a TT heat scale in a game without TT generation/dissipation, where it's more than possible to build a heat-neutral mech.

A single ISML requires 10 heat sinks to cool in MWO. In TT it requires 3.

I'd be all about a TT heat scale if we had a game with generation/dissipation rates brought more in line with other TT concepts, such as mechs able to be relatively heat neutral, that only touch the heat scale if they outstrip their dissipation capabilities.

[Tombstoner]

Fut, on 19 September 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

This is the annoying part to the counter argument for a better Heat Scale.
People seem to think that we're suggesting all this randomization for the game, when in reality we just want things to become more difficult - like the reticule fizzing in and out (harder to line up your shot when your crosshair suddenly vanishes), or as you suggest, the reticule just becomes sluggish..

i could see more sluggish/ laggy movement via slower turn rates making targeting harder satisfying the aiming issue due to heat.

[KraftySOT]

Tombstoner, on 19 September 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

The only time this should happen in a mw game is standing still in a clan mech using an ERLL and targeting computer. at that point id be completely ok with pin point alphas. I would be arguing for it if the game didn't have that level of precision. lasers should be the most accurate weapons for long range attacks followed by ballistic, gauss suffers from the same COF issues as auto cannons but some improvement due to speed.

Yup.

[Tombstoner]

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

And ultimately this boils down to something Stan Lee once said:

"You dont make the hulk breath fire"

Its a simple addage to live by when youre working with established IPs.

what if he was hit with more gama ray's as long as its story driven i can forgive such transgressions.

[KraftySOT]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 September 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

The problem is that you want to implement a TT heat scale in a game without TT generation/dissipation, where it's more than possible to build a heat-neutral mech.

A single ISML requires 10 heat sinks to cool in MWO. In TT it requires 3.

I'd be all about a TT heat scale if we had a game with generation/dissipation rates brought more in line with other TT concepts, such as mechs able to be relatively heat neutral, that only touch the heat scale if they outstrip their dissipation capabilities.

Yeah I want that too.

Thats how this works. Its all a cascade from design decisions to abandon the TT in the first place.

Thats what id like to see "I'd be all about a TT heat scale if we had a game with generation/dissipation rates brought more in line with other TT concepts, such as mechs able to be relatively heat neutral, that only touch the heat scale if they outstrip their dissipation capabilities."

That ISML should make 3. Its the most efficient weapon in the roster. But it has a short range. Med laser boating is as old as the building and customization rules. Probably older. People opening that first edition box probably got a record sheet and made their own changes. Back before an clan stuff when all that existed were IS weapons, no streaks, no gauss, no er, the medium laser was king. But it had a short range. That archer could keep away from you and keep pelting you so when you did close in, he had a good chance of taking you down with a punch.

[Cranky Poed]

As much as I like the idea I see the potential for people cash farming, flamer griefing , and just general shenanigans. I think would add another layer of skill.

[Tombstoner]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 September 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

The problem is that you want to implement a TT heat scale in a game without TT generation/dissipation, where it's more than possible to build a heat-neutral mech.

A single ISML requires 10 heat sinks to cool in MWO. In TT it requires 3.

I'd be all about a TT heat scale if we had a game with generation/dissipation rates brought more in line with other TT concepts, such as mechs able to be relatively heat neutral, that only touch the heat scale if they outstrip their dissipation capabilities.

This is because of PGI's alteration of the TT values and failure to correctly adjust damage/heat values for increased rates of fire. resulting in a 250% increase in damage output befor 1.4 heat sink. that was compensated by 200% increase in armor.

TTK is too short because damage was buffed relative to TT starting values.

Edited by Tombstoner, 19 September 2014 - 10:45 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Tombstoner, on 19 September 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

what if he was hit with more gama ray's as long as its story driven i can forgive such transgressions.

But some cant...i think he was trying to speak to the philosophy of handling a pre existing IP...you know you cant do wrong, doing more of the same, but you know youll lose someone if you make changes. You might get new people but thats a gamble, and when dealing with someone you didnt originally create, the best policy is to just go with what the original authors of the idea intended.

You get this is comics all the time, same thing...you have a pre existing thing, the comic, and then someone translates that to a movie...in the 80s there were all kinds of horrible comic to movie adaptations that completely abandoned the lore of the characters. They "made the hulk breath fire" so to speak. Something that the much loved Hulk television series, didnt do.

Theres always translation problems...but it seems to me after the past 15 years of ridiculusly successful comic to movie adaptations that are almost spot on plot wise...that Stan Lee is right. You dont change a good thing.