231 replies to this topic

[Fut]

wanderer, on 19 September 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

You don't have a dice roll to hit as it is. Heat effects that cause it to be harder to hit a target in MWO would have to make it more difficult to aim, period- in other words, twisting, turning, and getting that crosshair on target with more sluggish responses as heat levels rise. Not "roll 2d6 and see if you hit". There is no "to-hit roll" in MWO.

This is the annoying part to the counter argument for a better Heat Scale.
People seem to think that we're suggesting all this randomization for the game, when in reality we just want things to become more difficult - like the reticule fizzing in and out (harder to line up your shot when your crosshair suddenly vanishes), or as you suggest, the reticule just becomes sluggish..

[KraftySOT]

I especially dont have a problem with that Masakari if youre losing 20% of your speed when your heat passed 5.

The light you didnt shoot at is now coring your back armor while you cant turn around to do anything about him. And if you do...you expose your back to me.

Ive been totally convinced this entire time that the TT rules translate extremely well if you just do the translation with love and attention for detail.

I dont have a problem with a stalker with 8 PPCs who pays the proper price for his choice.

[Lefty Lucy]

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

To be fair, itd be one of dozens of calls like that to Fanpro rofl....they werent exactly loved you know.

And that Warhawk is totally balanced imho. 62 total heat with the run, 56 dissa? And you also DIE if youre using the full rules. Theres an expanded heat scale I think in TacOps?

But we can agree to disagree about what is "CBT". To me, its the FASA stuff before the clans and they lost the license. The core rules, and really for most people my age who played it at the time, CBT was the quickstart rules.

The semantics of it really is irrelevant anyways.

That stalker could be made, but it also would die a quick painful death. The pilot would die when he fired all the weapons. Also sacrificing alot of armor...because you dont have the space if you use an xl and endo and ferros, you cant put in the DHS to cool it, so youre walking around with 20% of the armor and a bunch of weapons you cant fire.

Optional rules are optional. There's nothing in the standard rules that would cause a mech or pilot to die in a mech with no ammo, barring a life-support crit.

You can choose to use your own definition of CBT if you want, but for almost all BT players out there it's simply the standard TT rules, with TACs, internal structure, etc.

[KraftySOT]

Fut, on 19 September 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

This is the annoying part to the counter argument for a better Heat Scale.
People seem to think that we're suggesting all this randomization for the game, when in reality we just want things to become more difficult - like the reticule fizzing in and out (harder to line up your shot when your crosshair suddenly vanishes), or as you suggest, the reticule just becomes sluggish..

Yeah the strawmaning or its just plain lack of understanding what were saying, is the worst part of this debate thats been on going for some time.

This is nothing no one isnt used to in other games...the disconnect between that and peoples argument is astoundingly annoying.

[Lefty Lucy]

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that warhawk, simply the fact that there are relatively heat-neutral mechs in any era that can effectively one-shot lights and meds without a head hit.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Fut, on 19 September 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

I'll refer you to the top left of this website... you know, where it says "Mechwarrior Online: A Battletech game"

I'll refer you wikipedia since I like nitpicking also.

Within the MechWarrior games, players take control of a single BattleMech and combat other BattleMechs, tanks, infantry, and more, from within the cockpit of their machine.

BattleTech is a turn-based, multiplayer game, typically played on a map divided into hexagonal grids with figurines or counters representing military units.

Edited by ugrakarma, 19 September 2014 - 09:50 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 September 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

No, quickstart rules are not the entirety of Classic Battletech. I have a book sitting on my shelf titled, "Classic Battletech Technical Readout: 3058 Upgrade." I guess we should contact Fanpro to tell them they were wrong, of course they don't even exist any more. Depending on the type of TT game you're playing anyone *can* use a Hellstar if they want. The only thing you can do is refuse to play them if you don't want to go up against it. My preferred approach if I'm playing a BV-balanced game is to simply ensure that my force isn't comprised entirely of mechs, as the Hellstar is decidedly less happy to be swarmed by anti-mech infantry, due to its lack of hands. Also, just for ships and giggles, here's a relatively heat-neutral warhawk prime

FanPro Exists They only changed the name plate to CatalystGameLabs

[Lefty Lucy]

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

Yeah the strawmaning or its just plain lack of understanding what were saying, is the worst part of this debate thats been on going for some time.

This is nothing no one isnt used to in other games...the disconnect between that and peoples argument is astoundingly annoying.

I think many of us understand that a TT-style heat scale doesn't work well in a game where you can't design a heat-neutral mech.

Joseph Mallan, on 19 September 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

FanPro Exists They only changed the name plate to CatalystGameLabs

My understanding is that Catalyst bought the license from FanPro, but are a different company. IMO even if they're the same people, they've been doing a lot better stuff with the IP under the Catalyst name regardless.

[KraftySOT]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 September 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

Optional rules are optional. There's nothing in the standard rules that would cause a mech or pilot to die in a mech with no ammo, barring a life-support crit.

You can choose to use your own definition of CBT if you want, but for almost all BT players out there it's simply the standard TT rules, with TACs, internal structure, etc.

Thats fine, im not knocking your definition of it, but I wouldnt say almost all, or even the majority.

Theres a group of 50 or 60 of us over in the Megameknet 3025 campaign who dont really consider the clans a part of CBT, and certainly arent playing with TACs turned on.

All those rules are optional.

Also, like all tournaments and even house games, balance is a concern, and while im not saying ignore a core rule, you can absolutely take optional or maxtech/tacops rules or even solaris rules, and apply them here, for balance.

When faced with the 8 PPC stalker, PGI had a choice. Ghost heat...or kill the pilot.

One of those was the TT decision.

[Joseph Mallan]

ugrakarma, on 19 September 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

I'll refer you wikipedia since I like nitpicking also.

[color=#252525]Within the MechWarrior games, players take control of a single [/color]BattleMech[color=#252525] and [/color]combat[color=#252525] other BattleMechs, tanks, infantry, and more, from within the [/color]cockpit[color=#252525] of their [/color]machine[color=#252525].[/color]

BattleTech[color=#252525] is a turn-based, multiplayer game, typically played on a map divided into [/color]hexagonal grids[color=#252525] with figurines or counters representing military units.[/color]

And this is also, a BattleTech Game... the Devs have made it a point to have it splashed on this very page. You are using Mechs carried over from TT not something new. We are supposed to be fighting in a Story arc that was written about in BattleTech Novels in the 80s-90s. You sir are in my back yard.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Fut, on 19 September 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

This is the annoying part to the counter argument for a better Heat Scale.
People seem to think that we're suggesting all this randomization for the game, when in reality we just want things to become more difficult - like the reticule fizzing in and out (harder to line up your shot when your crosshair suddenly vanishes), or as you suggest, the reticule just becomes sluggish..

You should elaborate on the cause from the start instead of showing a dice rolling chart of negative effects. Immersion is one thing, TT ruleset is another.

And still - all those effects could have SERIOUS impact to gameplay making it a stale camping fest firing high alphas and taking time to cool down or using heat neutral pinpoint weaponry...

[KraftySOT]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 September 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that warhawk, simply the fact that there are relatively heat-neutral mechs in any era that can effectively one-shot lights and meds without a head hit.

See I disagree...the light A, isnt sitting still, and B, wont get hit in the same turn, in the same torso the vast majority of the time. 15 damage isnt enough to take off most light mech legs, unless were talking about old 3025 stingers and the like.

What will happen in the TT is that light mech got a +4 at a minimum from movement, and the clanner is going to have a 7+ to hit, about a 43% chance, and the two PPCs that hit, wll most likely hit seperate locations and maybe cause a critical.

The only way to poptart in the TT, is the old PPC to the noggin. (or gauss, or atlas fist)

[Lefty Lucy]

But the 8 PPC stalker doesn't kill the pilot in TT rules as long as life support is functioning, so killing the pilot isn't TT anyways.

TACs are in the basic core rules, but automatically hi the torso that is facing the enemy, rather than floating crits, which is the optional rule.

I'd suggest that by playing megamek you're getting confused about what is actually core rules, since you let the computer do everything for you.

[Koniving]

IsaAurinkoinen, on 19 September 2014 - 02:03 AM, said:

I call BS. How this is killing creativity when you are punished boating lots of same weapon. If you want to run more same weapons than GH limit, you just have to manage you heat better. GH isn't real problem to many, idea of it is not from TT/canon is. If you think GH is problem, maybe you are just bad in this game? Sorry.

Thou love heat scale penalty idea. We need more hot maps and penalties to run too hot.

Ghost heat tries to simulate the effects of the 30 threshold heat system against said boats.

In 3 volleys of twin AC/20s, the ghost heat will possibly shut you down with 15 DHS.
With 15 DHS, 3 volleys without ghost heat and with 30 threshold would GUARANTEED shut you down. With the penalties too, you'd detonate your ammunition, and chances are you probably shut down on the second volley anyway.

Ghost heat on PPCs. 2 PPCs is safe. 3 or more is punished. You can even fire 4 PPCs at once just fine. It's a bit hot, but meh. Just wait 6 seconds and you're fine again. You can even chain fire them to last even longer.
30 threshold: 4 PPCs, 133% heat. Shutdown. Guaranteed explosion of ammo. 3 PPCs at once: 100% heat. Shutdown. Possible explosion of ammo. 2 PPCs at 66.67% heat.

Ghost heat on LPLs. You are safe firing 2 LPLs. You get punished for 3. You can fire 5 LPLs without shutting down with enough heatsinks.
30 threshold: 2 LPLs are safe but there's a shutdown risk. 3 LPLs and you shut down. 4 and it's 133% heat.

It goes on, and on, and on...

With just 30 threshold with or without the penalty system and no ghost heat you'd have even more punishments for boating than Ghost heat provides. Which means even less reason to boat.

Edited by Koniving, 19 September 2014 - 10:18 AM.

[KraftySOT]

I mean we can load up megamek you know and test all this stuff.


Im just telling you from my personal experience with the TT, the only thing that insta kills me in anything, is the backshot, the headshot...and ffs lifesupport critical hits with unconcious pilots.

Lefty Lucy, on 19 September 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

But the 8 PPC stalker doesn't kill the pilot in TT rules as long as life support is functioning, so killing the pilot isn't TT anyways.

TACs are in the basic core rules, but automatically hi the torso that is facing the enemy, rather than floating crits, which is the optional rule.

I'd suggest that by playing megamek you're getting confused about what is actually core rules, since you let the computer do everything for you.

Yes it is TT

Its just a Maxtech rule.

[Anarchy Stocking]

Koniving, on 19 September 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Ghost heat tries to simulate the effects of the heat system against said boats.

In 3 volleys of twin AC/20s, the ghost heat will possibly shut you down with 15 DHS.
With 15 DHS, 3 volleys without ghost heat and with 30 threshold would GUARANTEED shut you down. With the penalties too, you'd detonate your ammunition, and chances are you probably shut down on the second volley anyway.

Ghost heat on PPCs. 2 PPCs is safe. 3 or more is punished. You can even fire 4 PPCs at once just fine. It's a bit hot, but meh. Just wait 6 seconds and you're fine again. You can even chain fire them to last even longer.
30 threshold: 4 PPCs, 133% heat. Shutdown. Guaranteed explosion of ammo. 3 PPCs at once: 100% heat. Shutdown. Possible explosion of ammo. 2 PPCs at 66.67% heat.

Ghost heat on LPLs. You are safe firing 2 LPLs. You get punished for 3. You can fire 5 LPLs without shutting down with enough heatsinks.
30 threshold: 2 LPLs are safe but there's a shutdown risk. 3 LPLs and you shut down. 4 and it's 133% heat.

It goes on, and on, and on...

With just 30 threshold with or without the penalty system and no ghost heat you'd have even more punishments for boating than Ghost heat provides. Which means even less reason to boat.

Exactly that's why people start's to dislike this game. Booooting not allowed yo! It's so wrong...

[Lefty Lucy]

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

See I disagree...the light A, isnt sitting still, and B, wont get hit in the same turn, in the same torso the vast majority of the time. 15 damage isnt enough to take off most light mech legs, unless were talking about old 3025 stingers and the like.

What will happen in the TT is that light mech got a +4 at a minimum from movement, and the clanner is going to have a 7+ to hit, about a 43% chance, and the two PPCs that hit, wll most likely hit seperate locations and maybe cause a critical.

The only way to poptart in the TT, is the old PPC to the noggin. (or gauss, or atlas fist)

+4 at a minimum? That's 10+ hexes, which unless you're on flat terrain and moving in a straight line is generally pretty difficult to do consistently, unless you're jumping, but then you're accuracy is wrecked too.

[KraftySOT]

Honestly in Megamek all the options are labelled.

And theyre actually labelled via my definition.

The first edition release in the box is CBT and labelled as such, and everything else is called something else. Either 4th succession war, max tech, tac ops, strat ops, aerotech, city tech, etc.

TACs is not a CBT option in megamek...and as a child, it wasnt in the rule book in the box I bought. The first I saw it was in CityTech.

[Koniving]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 September 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

But the 8 PPC stalker doesn't kill the pilot in TT rules as long as life support is functioning, so killing the pilot isn't TT anyways.

I'd suggest that by playing megamek you're getting confused about what is actually core rules, since you let the computer do everything for you.

In tabletop, in order to function an 8 PPC build must fire one at a time, repeatedly overriding to achieve 8 PPCs in a single turn. You may notice that they hit different locations. There's also 10 seconds of time going from start to finish.
You don't think that a mech fires once, sits there for 10 seconds, then shuts down, then falls over?

The mech shutsdown, it collapses, the pilot passes out and typically receives damage.
You've done enough damage to basically render half of your mech useless (from the mech collapsing). Since 7 PPCs almost always winds up in falling over, I guarantee 8 will make it fall over.
If you had ammo, that pilot will be dead.

Edited by Koniving, 19 September 2014 - 10:05 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 September 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

+4 at a minimum? That's 10+ hexes, which unless you're on flat terrain and moving in a straight line is generally pretty difficult to do consistently, unless you're jumping, but then you're accuracy is wrecked too.

Zeh? Ive never had a problem getting my +4 in a light....

If I cant, then im avoiding line of sight completely.