231 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

I dont even have a problem with that...fatigue and such is something new to the FPS world. More serious shooters do a fairly good job at it. Arma 3 for instance has a pretty good (not great) fatigue, sway, drop, and wind system.

But even in counter strike the weapons are NOT all rail guns that fire perfectly accurate shots. Those guys in that video are just damned good.

CS has a problem in that the RNG for the raycasts, isnt really random (same in BF3 and 4 and COD)...its a "weighted" system, so you can have the weapon "pull" to the right or left or have the muzzle come up or depress with automatic fire.





And I want to point out that shooters, as a whole, are making more money, and have more players, now that they have these kinds of systems, versus the games of the early 2000s and 90s where those things didnt exist.

Realism is popular.

There is no such thing sir.

Even GPS Guided Munitions have a +/- 5.5 meter RADIUS accuracy.

Now this looks promising though!:

Quote

On January 31, 2008 the US Navy tested a railgun that fired a shell at 10.64 MJ with a muzzle velocity of 2,520 m/s (8,270 ft/s). Its expected performance is a muzzle velocity over 5,800 m/s (19,000 ft/s), accurate enough to hit a 5-metre (16 ft) target over 200 nmi (370 km) away while firing at 10 shots per minute.

But it is still only accurate within a 8' Radius. So aiming at the Right arm and hitting the Center Torso?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 19 September 2014 - 09:27 AM.

[Tombstoner]

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

And I completely agree about the ranges of fights..

A huge part of the aiming issue is the desier for MWO to not have the WOT COF issue. that you will find is what people think fo why you mention a COF. its really a circle of error probable where the majority of shots will land. they compare the call for COF as a RNG for targeting success and point to WOT as the example.... this is not what the cof is all about.

Its PGI intent to not be world of mechs... so they adopted a pure skill aiming paradigm on top of a 2d6 hit allocation system... what could go wrong....

Edited by Tombstoner, 19 September 2014 - 09:27 AM.

[KraftySOT]

And no omnis are totally heat neutral...

The warhawk can fire its PPCs and not move and make 5 heat. Thats about the best youre going to get.

Even clan mechs with 40+ heat dissapation, make heat...and if you make them heat neutral, its because youre sacrificing firepower.

[Lefty Lucy]

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

TACs arent CBT, though, neither is an ER PPC....but yes thats absolutely true. Without a head hit, it would never happen.


And the Hellstar is in 3079!!!

Come on dude

TACs are definitely in CBT, as is Clan tech. CBT isn't only 3025 era. There's nothing in the Hellstar that can't exist in the Clan Invasion, as a matter of fact, as it doesn't have any advanced tech.

[KraftySOT]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 September 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

There is no such thing sir.

Even GPS Guided Munitions have a +/- 5.5 meter RADIUS accuracy.

Now this looks promising though!:
But it is still only accurate within a 8' Radius.

Exactly...nothing is that accurate.

[Lefty Lucy]

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

And no omnis are totally heat neutral...

The warhawk can fire its PPCs and not move and make 5 heat. Thats about the best youre going to get.

Even clan mechs with 40+ heat dissapation, make heat...and if you make them heat neutral, its because youre sacrificing firepower.

Drop the LRM and ammo for more heat sinks and the warhawk is decidedly more heat neutral. Easy customization of weapon systems is what makes Omnis what they are.

[KraftySOT]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 September 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

TACs are definitely in CBT, as is Clan tech. CBT isn't only 3025 era. There's nothing in the Hellstar that can't exist in the Clan Invasion, as a matter of fact, as it doesn't have any advanced tech.

Technically, CBT is the quick start rules, that doesnt even have gyro hits, and is 3025...Warhammers, no clans, etc...

And the Hellstars not that big of a deal really...4 ppcs heat neutral? So what. Run...you made two heat Its only got 60 dissapation and the 4 ppcs are 60.

So its still not heat neutral lol...

Also as ive said repeatedly, if you fixed pin point accuracy, even 4 ppcs that you can fire from not moving infinitely, isnt that big of a deal. At long range, one or two will miss.

Lefty Lucy, on 19 September 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

Drop the LRM and ammo for more heat sinks and the warhawk is decidedly more heat neutral. Easy customization of weapon systems is what makes Omnis what they are.

MORE heat neutral sure...and its a great mech...however everyone cant pilot a warhawk...and I still dont see anything wrong with an assault hauling around 4 ppcs that it can fire forever.

[Joseph Mallan]

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

Exactly...nothing is that accurate.

And yet people here and in those shooters feel that are better than real life?

I wanna hit what I am aiming at?

So does the US Navy!

[KraftySOT]

6-8 on an IS stalker, and the IS stalker still being alive afterwards?

Yes thats ********. However thats not TT either...

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

NO! Cause... SAFETY FIRST!

Edited by Hagoromo Gitsune, 19 September 2014 - 09:31 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 September 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

And yet people here and in those shooters feel that are better than real life?

I wanna hit what I am aiming at?

So does the US Navy!

Rofl nice one.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

And I want to point out that shooters, as a whole, are making more money, and have more players, now that they have these kinds of systems, versus the games of the early 2000s and 90s where those things didnt exist.

Realism is popular.

Sure. But they also need to be easily accessible. MWO is still struggling with that. What you're actually talking about are mechanics like reticule sway when walking that would affect your aiming. Btw I would love to see that implemented at some point!

And yeah, I'm ok with some minor movement penalties (very small) when in high heat, but not on the terms of TT or TT heatscale. It needs to be tailored to the FPS genre without overkill RNG elements. As an example messing up your aim.

[Joseph Mallan]

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

Technically, CBT is the quick start rules, that doesnt even have gyro hits, and is 3025...Warhammers, no clans, etc...

I have to stop you here!

Quick start CBT rules do not use Internal Structure, And many other Normal TT rules!

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

Rofl nice one.

And... I hit a man sized target at 500M in the head 7 of 10 times and only missed the target once. I wanna be able to hit like that here as well!

[Duncan Jr Fischer]

Kiiyor, on 19 September 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

You know, the guys who shout in triumph when they manage to get the feet bits working with the top bits, before exploding when the team retaliates after they successfully test their weapons on the nearest Jenner.

You add another layer of complexity to the MWO Lasagne and new players won't bother to stick around past the first bite, despite the delicious bechamel sauce and glistening chunks of beef with a cup full of hearty vegetables thrown in, because they add a surprising extra dimension to the dish, besides cheese-guilt.

Edit: Not that I don't want it. I think the idea is awesome.
/devilsadvocate

I just wanted to say that it's not good to try pleasing the new players who don't know anything. Simplifying the game so that noobs had no troubles is the worst way. This game would have zero learning curve and will be abandoned soon. What's really needed is providing the accessible and comprehensible information for the new players, introduce them thoroughly to the complexity of the game features. That's the way of the champion. Actually, the complexity is appealing and people love to learn, when it's easy, when the information is accessible and they don't have to go to some third party sites to know what the game is about and how to play it.
Make a good tutorial which would be mandatory for the new players, and there you graphically show how things work. If tutorial makes player shoot to gradually overheat and comments on every step, any noob will learn this lesson. And it works for everything)

[KraftySOT]

Three LRM20s, 4 PPCs, 2 Gauss, 8 Med lasers (or more) 10+ small lasers, 10+mgs, these are all legitimate designs.

I want my Rattler. Atlas with 12 machine guns.

But really any load out in the TROs should be repeatable here. I dont totally agree with the hardpoint system, but it does ensure that everyone cant just meta up with 4ppcs and fire them forever.

But all the designs like Novas, Supernovas, the Rattler Atlas, the missile boats like the bombadier and archer, theres nothing wrong with them being heat neutral, or close to it...you make a sacrifice to do it. Armor, speed, or other firepower. And most of the boat designs in the TROs cant be heat neutral without some serious lack of armor.

And since the clans arent getting the ability to totally customize stuff, youre limited a bit in the way you change your mech around.

I just see no issue with 4 ppcs being fired heat neutral.

At least so long as they dont all hit the same damned hit location from 900ms away with ease.

[Lefty Lucy]

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

Technically, CBT is the quick start rules, that doesnt even have gyro hits, and is 3025...Warhammers, no clans, etc...

And the Hellstars not that big of a deal really...4 ppcs heat neutral? So what. Run...you made two heat Its only got 60 dissapation and the 4 ppcs are 60.

So its still not heat neutral lol...

Also as ive said repeatedly, if you fixed pin point accuracy, even 4 ppcs that you can fire from not moving infinitely, isnt that big of a deal. At long range, one or two will miss.




MORE heat neutral sure...and its a great mech...however everyone cant pilot a warhawk...and I still dont see anything wrong with an assault hauling around 4 ppcs that it can fire forever.

No, quickstart rules are not the entirety of Classic Battletech. I have a book sitting on my shelf titled, "Classic Battletech Technical Readout: 3058 Upgrade." I guess we should contact Fanpro to tell them they were wrong, of course they don't even exist any more. Depending on the type of TT game you're playing anyone *can* use a Hellstar if they want. The only thing you can do is refuse to play them if you don't want to go up against it. My preferred approach if I'm playing a BV-balanced game is to simply ensure that my force isn't comprised entirely of mechs, as the Hellstar is decidedly less happy to be swarmed by anti-mech infantry, due to its lack of hands. Also, just for ships and giggles, here's a relatively heat-neutral warhawk prime

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

6-8 on an IS stalker, and the IS stalker still being alive afterwards?

Yes thats ********. However thats not TT either...

If you're using TT customization rules, that have been included in the basic ruleset in every box set ever, then that stalker is perfectly legal, and since it has no ammo will easily survive an alpha strike, albeit shut down for a turn or two.

[KraftySOT]

ugrakarma, on 19 September 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Sure. But they also need to be easily accessible. MWO is still struggling with that. What you're actually talking about are mechanics like reticule sway when walking that would affect your aiming. Btw I would love to see that implemented at some point!

And yeah, I'm ok with some minor movement penalties (very small) when in high heat, but not on the terms of TT or TT heatscale. It needs to be tailored to the FPS genre without overkill RNG elements. As an example messing up your aim.

Totally agree.

I think everyone whose familiar with the FPS genre knows their weapons arent going to be perfectly accurate and will have to use some skill and manage a game device to accomplish it.

If youve ever played any FPS in the last 5-10 years you know ducking makes you more accurate and running less accurate. I think its intuitive.

I do also agree that I think we should focus on some other things first to get people here, but also you dont want to throw a totally new game mechanic at new players. So it might be something you want to change BEFORE the push to get us on Steam and get us a crap ton of players.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Duncan Jr Fischer, on 19 September 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

there you graphically show how things work.

[Fut]

ugrakarma, on 19 September 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

After all, it's MechWarrior Online, not BattleTech Online.

I'll refer you to the top left of this website... you know, where it says "Mechwarrior Online: A Battletech game"

[KraftySOT]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 September 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

No, quickstart rules are not the entirety of Classic Battletech. I have a book sitting on my shelf titled, "Classic Battletech Technical Readout: 3058 Upgrade." I guess we should contact Fanpro to tell them they were wrong, of course they don't even exist any more. Depending on the type of TT game you're playing anyone *can* use a Hellstar if they want. The only thing you can do is refuse to play them if you don't want to go up against it. My preferred approach if I'm playing a BV-balanced game is to simply ensure that my force isn't comprised entirely of mechs, as the Hellstar is decidedly less happy to be swarmed by anti-mech infantry, due to its lack of hands. Also, just for ships and giggles, here's a relatively heat-neutral warhawk prime





If you're using TT customization rules, that have been included in the basic ruleset in every box set ever, then that stalker is perfectly legal, and since it has no ammo will easily survive an alpha strike, albeit shut down for a turn or two.

To be fair, itd be one of dozens of calls like that to Fanpro rofl....they werent exactly loved you know.

And that Warhawk is totally balanced imho. 62 total heat with the run, 56 dissa? And you also DIE if youre using the full rules. Theres an expanded heat scale I think in TacOps?

But we can agree to disagree about what is "CBT". To me, its the FASA stuff before the clans and they lost the license. The core rules, and really for most people my age who played it at the time, CBT was the quickstart rules.

The semantics of it really is irrelevant anyways.

That stalker could be made, but it also would die a quick painful death. The pilot would die when he fired all the weapons. Also sacrificing alot of armor...because you dont have the space if you use an xl and endo and ferros, you cant put in the DHS to cool it, so youre walking around with 20% of the armor and a bunch of weapons you cant fire.