231 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

DeathjesterUK, on 19 September 2014 - 12:48 AM, said:

Well, Im pretty sure that Russ reads these forums and the ideas that are in them. I played Battletech from when I was 9 to the age of...well, now, 28 years later. I found the heat system in the mechwarrior games weird, but at the time it was just amazing to be tromping around in a mech. Anyone remember Mechwarrior I!!?? That game was awesome. But we have come so far. And to be using the same generic heat system as Mechwarrior I used all those years ago it selling yourself short.

Yeah that kind of stuff is mindblowing to me that no one has taken the IP to the next level with these systems yet. Were just running around in a more graphical version of this:



They can say all they want this is the closest to BT any one has ever had...but any of us over the age of 30 who played this stuff when it came out...knows better.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

After all, it's MechWarrior Online, not BattleTech Online.

[KraftySOT]

If you put up all the pictures in order from Mechwarrior 1, up through BT3025, MW4, and now MWO...

The only that things really changed is the graphics...and thats sad.

Still no physical attacks in 24 years of Mechwarrior games. Never seen a charge knock someone over, or a mech go prone. Still dont have a lore friendly and results copying heat system, aiming system, damage system, radar/sensor system, and no one, no one, has ever done LRMs right.

ugrakarma, on 19 September 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

After all, it's MechWarrior Online, not BattleTech Online.

Should be the same thing

Notice Battletech 3025...and Mechwarrior 2, are fundamentally the same. Just MPBT3025 was slightly more lore friendly. Also it didnt lag like crazy or suffer from horrible net code.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

kapusta11, on 19 September 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:

You just have no idea what you're talking about, should've started from that.

Speed figures are wrong, yes. Otherwise my point being too much random elements to a first person shooter.

[wolf74]

Most of you all are Forgetting the Heat Chart is After the Heatsinks had a Chance to do their job. So you will Need Two Heat Gauges.

Gauge A Heat created by Weapons firing, Moving. The will Move fast all over the Place.

Gauge B Heat Mech Metal Heat,

Here is how I see it working

Step 1.
[ Heat + A + Environment Effects (AKA Lava)] Mech Make Heat adds to Gauge A

Step 2.
[ A - Heat Sinks * (Environment setting (AKA hot or cold maps) ] Heat sink do their Job Removes Heat from Gauge A

Step 3.
[ ( A - B ) /10 = C, C + B ] 1/10 of the Difference from Gauge A and B are add to B
***** If A is a Lower Number than B you will have a Negative added to B so you would Subtract Heat

Step 4.
Check Gauge B VS Penalty Chart add any penalty to mech

Step 5
Goto 1.

Edited by wolf74, 19 September 2014 - 08:14 AM.

[Tombstoner]

ugrakarma, on 19 September 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

No thank you. Never. I understand what you TT guys are aiming at but you fail to understand that this is a First Person Shooter - not a tabletop game nor a simulator of any sort. Below is just an example of the heatscale in OP.


WHAT TT HEATSCALE WOULD DO IN MWO

5 Heat (16,6%) - -1 Movement Points

On a Jenner this means ~9% speed reduction. Max speed reduced from 152.7 kph to 139 kph. On an Atlas however this means 20% a drop from 60.4 kph to 48.3 kph with 340 engine.

8 Heat (27,6%) - +1 Modifier to Fire

A random number generated (RNG) variable to make you miss your shots where you aim them at. Skill reducing variable.

10 Heat (33%) - -2 movement Points

Jenner takes 18% speed reduction. Max speed reduced to 124,9 kph. Atlas takes 40% speed reduction. Max speed reduced to 36,2 kph.

13 Heat (43%) - +2 Modifier to Fire

Even more RNG to make you miss your shots.

14 Heat (47%) - Shutdown, avoid on 4+

33% chance to shutdown. More RNG. Skill reducing variable.

15 Heat (50%) - -3 Movement Points

Jenner takes 27% speed reduction. Max speed reduced to 111 kph. Atlas takes 60% speed reduction. Max speed reduced to 24.2 kph.

17 Heat (57%) - +3 Modifier to Fire

Even more RNG to make you miss your shots - at this point you'll be spreading dmg like a day one rookie.

18 Heat (60%) - Shutdown, avoid on 6+

50% change to shutdown. More RNG.

19 Heat (63%) - Ammo Explosion, avoid on 4+

33% chance to ammo explosion. Possible fatal. More RNG - think of arty headshots.

20 Heat (66%) - -4 Movement Points

Jenner takes 36% speed reduction. Max speed reduced to 97.1 kph. Atlas takes 80% speed reduction. Max speed reduced to 12.1 kph.

22 Heat (73%) - Shutdown, avoid on 8+

67% chance to shutdown. More RNG.

23 Heat (77%) - Ammo Explosion, avoid on 6+

50% chance to ammo explosion. Possible fatal. More RNG.

24 Heat (80) - +4 Modifier to Fire

More RNG penalties to aim. Nearly impossible to hit anything (think of firing while using jump jets)

25 Heat (83%) - -5 Movement Points

Jenner takes 46% speed reduction. Max speed reduced to 82.5 kph. Atlas is unable to move at all.

26 Heat (87%) - Shutdown, avoid on 10+

83% chance to shutdown. More RNG.

28 Heat (93%) - Ammo Explosion, avoid on 8+

67% to ammo explosion. Possible fatal. More RNG.

30 Heat (100%) - Shutdown

100% chance to shut down.


On suggestions like HUD flicker - I'm all in. But to add random elements to skill based shooter is just not going to work.

Remove the gunnery since it has nothing to affect then id sign on. Heat is supposed to be bad its supposed to be managed not treated like a regenerating clip or mag. that way people will build heat neutral builds but the game was biased heavily twords heat because of the PGI fear of heat neutrality yet heat neutral mechs exist.

[Tombstoner]

wolf74, on 19 September 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

Most of you all are Forgetting the Heat Chart is After the Heatsinks had a Chance to do their job. So you will Need Two Heat Gauges.

Gauge A Heat created by Weapons firing, Moving. The will Move fast all over the Place.

Gauge B Heat Mech Metal Heat,

Here is how I see it working

Step 1.
[ Heat + A + Environment Effects (AKA Lava)] Mech Make Heat adds to Gauge A

Step 2.
[ A - Heat Sinks * (Environment setting (AKA hot or cold maps) ] Heat sink do their Job Removes Heat from Gauge A

Step 3.
[ ( A - B ) /10 = C, C + B ] 1/10 of the Difference from Gauge A and B are add to B
***** If A is a Lower Number than B you will have a Negative added to B so you would Subtract Heat

Step 4.
Check Gauge B VS Penalty Chart add any penalty to mech

Step 5
Goto 1.

all you need to show is whats left over after 10 seconds of heat dissipation. that becomes your heat modifier level that last for 10 seconds and it starts over when ever you add more heat or take battle damge and loose heat sinks. just follow TT rules for a change and see what happens.... we are using the mech creation rules are we not....

[KraftySOT]

Tombstoner, on 19 September 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

Remove the gunnery since it has nothing to affect then id sign on. Heat is supposed to be bad its supposed to be managed not treated like a regenerating clip or mag. that way people will build heat neutral builds but the game was biased heavily twords heat because of the PGI fear of heat neutrality yet heat neutral mechs exist.

BS. Pin point accuracy and convergence is the biggest problem in this game, and the number one cause of all the balance changes that have been made that everyone hates.

[wolf74]

Tombstoner, on 19 September 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

all you need to show is whats left over after 10 seconds of heat dissipation. that becomes your heat modifier level that last for 10 seconds and it starts over when ever you add more heat or take battle damge and loose heat sinks. just follow TT rules for a change and see what happens.... we are using the mech creation rules are we not....

I can come back at you with the Solair VII 2.5 sec heat rules or the AeroTech 60sec heat rules VS Mech Combat 10 rules or even how about the Mechwarrior RPG 5sec rules. My Thought takes all of them in to account.

Edited by wolf74, 19 September 2014 - 08:24 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Nothings wrong with a heat neutral mech. If you fire 20 heat worth of weapons, and have 20 heat sinks...you didnt make any heat.

If you fired 25 heat worth, you have 5 heat for the next 10 seconds, then its gone. Its really simple.

I also dont understand why people keep saying "This is a first person shooter not a table top"

YET WERE THE ONLY FIRST PERSON SHOOTER IN EXISTENCE WHERE EVERY WEAPON IS A RAILGUN AND HITS A SINGLE PIXEL.

Not even the AWP in Counterstrike is that accurate. Not even the SRR-61 in Battlefield.

Come on. Your argument is freaking weak.

Every shooter on the market has a RNG determine x and y coords and has your raycast (bullet, laser, missle, whatever) fire out in a cone.

Maybe people should realize that fact is holding this game back.

Even the mechs in Hawken, Titanfall, and that other weird game in the 90s where the mechs were on skates...even the mounted weapons on the vehicles in Planetside...arent this accurate.

Its a problem.

It effects every other aspect of the game.

[Tombstoner]

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

BS. Pin point accuracy and convergence is the biggest problem in this game, and the number one cause of all the balance changes that have been made that everyone hates.

We have been saying that since closed beta its here to stay..... PGI has demonstrated an unwillingnesss to address this and that makes it moot thus moving the most important issues lower on the list. i agree with you in principal, but its time to move on.

[wolf74]

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

Snip

Don't forget we also the only shooter that lets you fire ALL the guns your carrying all at once.

I can just see "The Doom Guy" Firing, Pistol, Shotgun, Double Barrel Shotgun, S.M.G, Rocket Launcher, & BFG9000 all at once.

[KraftySOT]

Tombstoner, on 19 September 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

We have been saying that since closed beta its here to stay..... PGI has demonstrated an unwillingnesss to address this and that makes it moot thus moving the most important issues lower on the list. i agree with you in principal, but its time to move on.

Then theres nothing to move on to, but a game that will slowly wither and die. Just like the other MW titles and attempts.

Its the fundamental flaw in almost all of them. Its glossed over and no one seems to admit that its what seperates us from all the other titles in the genre.

[KraftySOT]

wolf74, on 19 September 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

Don't forget we also the only shooter that lets you fire ALL the guns your carrying all at once.

I can just see "The Doom Guy" Firing, Pistol, Shotgun, Double Barrel Shotgun, S.M.G, Rocket Launcher, & BFG9000 all at once.

Incorrect!

Titanfall, Hawken, Planetside, the X series (or any other space combat game) and that game wth the mechs on skates that I cant remember the name of..all have you firing multiple weapons at once, and all those weapons dont converge on a single pixel.

The number of raycasts is irrelevant anyways.

Also I think youve missed a few Duke Nukem mods, Serious Sam, and the remake of Shogun....which all have you firing multiple and in the Duke mods case, all your weapons at once.


Its a weak...weak argument.

There is no excuse for us being the only shooter like this. Not even space combat shooters are like this.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

Nothings wrong with a heat neutral mech. If you fire 20 heat worth of weapons, and have 20 heat sinks...you didnt make any heat.

If you fired 25 heat worth, you have 5 heat for the next 10 seconds, then its gone. Its really simple.

I also dont understand why people keep saying "This is a first person shooter not a table top"

YET WERE THE ONLY FIRST PERSON SHOOTER IN EXISTENCE WHERE EVERY WEAPON IS A RAILGUN AND HITS A SINGLE PIXEL.

Not even the AWP in Counterstrike is that accurate. Not even the SRR-61 in Battlefield.

Come on. Your argument is freaking weak.

Every shooter on the market has a RNG determine x and y coords and has your raycast (bullet, laser, missle, whatever) fire out in a cone.

Maybe people should realize that fact is holding this game back.

Even the mechs in Hawken, Titanfall, and that other weird game in the 90s where the mechs were on skates...even the mounted weapons on the vehicles in Planetside...arent this accurate.

Its a problem.

It effects every other aspect of the game.

AC's aren't that accurate to a moving target. Laser aim needs to be 100% accurate to a single location if you want to deal the whole damage. LRMs spread damage, so do SRMs most of the time. Gauss is guite accurate but it blows up when the enemy touches it. You still have to lead every ammo based weapon (+ PPC). Even so - I'm still the one aiming the weapon and I like to hit where I aim.

These guys like to hit where they aim also in Counter Strike:

[KraftySOT]

You will ALWAYS have a problem with Alpha strike meta, blatantly arbitrary heat and damage values, poptarting, armor values, and time to kill until you fix the way weapons are fired.

If in 15 years theres another mech game, and it has the same paradigm, it will have the same freaking problems.

Every game in the series has encountered this, and shrugged off the idea that they should be like other shooters, and its always the same issue...we rebalance heat, lore, armor, legs, and players start to leave.

[KraftySOT]

ugrakarma, on 19 September 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

AC's aren't that accurate to a moving target. Laser aim needs to be 100% accurate to a single location if you want to deal the whole damage. LRMs spread damage, so do SRMs most of the time. Gauss is guite accurate but it blows up when the enemy touches it. You still have to lead every ammo based weapon (+ PPC). Even so - I'm still the one aiming the weapon and I like to hit where I aim.

These guys like to hit where they aim also in Counter Strike:

Youre just making my point stronger. Thats people being that accurate, with a built in inaccurate system. While its "pretty accurate" at the ranges in the video, its still a RNG generating a raycast that isnt perfectly straight down the barrel.

This means that people CAN STILL be the awesome uber shot they want to be with a built in system for innaccuracy, its just that much more challenging.

Watching that video is impressive. That theyre that good given the tools is amazing. A video like that in MWO wouldnt impress me in the least, just like this doesnt impress me in the least:

[STEF_]

Fut, on 19 September 2014 - 04:33 AM, said:

Yes please!
I can't even remember how many times I've posted this exact image on these forums.
In my opinion, MWO needs a more robust heat system - it doesn't even have to be as intricate as the chart quoted above. Just something that illustrates how important heat management is for BattleMechs. I honestly believe that this is the primary reason for MWO feeling less Mech-like than it should.

That scale is the heart of every TT game turn.

[KraftySOT]

Yeah its the main thing you think about. Heat. With your total hexes moved and LoS being a close runner up.

Heat is just a way to keep you from making builds they dont want you to make in this. Not something youre managing and thinking about the entire time.

[Joseph Mallan]

ugrakarma, on 19 September 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

AC's aren't that accurate to a moving target. Laser aim needs to be 100% accurate to a single location if you want to deal the whole damage. LRMs spread damage, so do SRMs most of the time. Gauss is guite accurate but it blows up when the enemy touches it. You still have to lead every ammo based weapon (+ PPC). Even so - I'm still the one aiming the weapon and I like to hit where I aim.

These guys like to hit where they aim also in Counter Strike:

NOwhere at all realistic! Take those guys to a live shooting range and see if they can hit that accurately. when shooting a 9 lbs rifle. It is not as easy as the video games makes it look. fatigue would have them missing in no time.

Plus firing Offhand is the most inaccurate way to shot.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 19 September 2014 - 08:53 AM.