231 replies to this topic

[Reitrix]

kapusta11, on 19 September 2014 - 04:44 AM, said:

Pinpoint Alphas are indeed an issue, the separate one. With doubled armor 2 Gauss Rifles deal the same amount of damage to one location as 1 Gauss in TT so anything below 30 damage is fine.

The pinpoint damage is what prompted the doubled armor, which is what prompted people into such 'meta' builds as the 2xPPC+2xAC5.

Now tell me, in table Top, if you decide to fire all the weapons of your 'mech in one turn, does every weapon hit the exact same location?

[Lupin]

Odd you seem to be missing an entry on your list, as I seem to remember at a higher levels engine just explodes on board game.
As I had a mech on board game designed to over heat the mechs.

Now that would be fun.

[kapusta11]

Reitrix, on 19 September 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

The pinpoint damage is what prompted the doubled armor, which is what prompted people into such 'meta' builds as the 2xPPC+2xAC5.

Now tell me, in table Top, if you decide to fire all the weapons of your 'mech in one turn, does every weapon hit the exact same location?

No, you have to allocate the hits but PGI decided to double armor to compensate the lack of allocation and it works fairly well with few exceptions. 1xAC20 shot in TT = 40 damage in MWO, 1xGauss = 30, 1xPPC = 20, 1xML = 10, something in between (30) is normal.

Edited by kapusta11, 19 September 2014 - 05:00 AM.

[Tombstoner]

Reitrix, on 19 September 2014 - 04:41 AM, said:

The problem with those penalties is that they're all after the fact.

The real issue is planting an entire alpha strike into exactly one pixel on the enemy 'Mech.

It doesn't matter if my crosshair vanishes at 99% heat if the 8 PPC Alpha that took me that high obliterated my target.

Its both, since the issues are linked/one in the same.... cant have one without the other. Mech design rules allow for multiple large weapons that vaporize your target. damage adsorption system is designed for random hit location. heat dissipated too fast for PGI. they could have simply elongated the time frame and lowered heat/damage output and still maintained a high rate of fire if done correctly.

Heat penalties should be after you fire/gain heat. i would rather see that as a deterrent then ghost heat. but the High damage alpha needs to be limited. that means global cool down for all weapons...

[Reitrix]

Tombstoner, on 19 September 2014 - 04:55 AM, said:

Its both, since the issues are linked/one in the same.... cant have one without the other. Mech design rules allow for multiple large weapons that vaporize your target. damage adsorption system is designed for random hit location. heat dissipated too fast for PGI. they could have simply elongated the time frame and lowered heat/damage output and still maintained a high rate of fire if done correctly.

Heat penalties should be after you fire/gain heat. i would rather see that as a deterrent then ghost heat. but the High damage alpha needs to be limited. that means global cool down for all weapons...

forced chainfire.
1~ minute cooldown for an alpha

problem solved.

But the community wont let that happen.

[Kmieciu]

kapusta11, on 19 September 2014 - 04:44 AM, said:

Result: All energy weapon mechs are worthless.

I think it is more complicated than that.

On a slow assault mech, you need high continuous firepower since you cannot run away or hide quickly. Therefore most successful Dire Wolf builds use ballistics.

On a fast mech with lots of heatsinks the lasers are great: just use your high heat capacity (25DHS on a Timberwolf), then dodge behind cover to cool off.

Fun fact: I tried some private matches on the test server. Splatwolf vs Laserwolf. The laser version legs the other one before it enters SRM range.

[kapusta11]

Reitrix, on 19 September 2014 - 05:00 AM, said:

forced chainfire.
1~ minute cooldown for an alpha

problem solved.

But the community wont let that happen.

Of course not, because it's a dumb idea.

[Fut]

Reitrix, on 19 September 2014 - 04:41 AM, said:

It doesn't matter if my crosshair vanishes at 99% heat if the 8 PPC Alpha that took me that high obliterated my target.

Well that's the whole point of an updated heat scale - 8 PPC Alpha would be 80 heat, and basically a death sentence for the pilot seeing how it's more than double the Heat Cap.

[kapusta11]

Kmieciu, on 19 September 2014 - 05:06 AM, said:

I think it is more complicated than that.

On a slow assault mech, you need high continuous firepower since you cannot run away or hide quickly. Therefore most successful Dire Wolf builds use ballistics.

On a fast mech with lots of heatsinks the lasers are great: just use your high heat capacity (25DHS on a Timberwolf), then dodge behind cover to cool off.

Fun fact: I tried some private matches on the test server. Splatwolf vs Laserwolf. The laser version legs the other one before it enters SRM range.

Nah it's fairly simple actually. Let's look at example: 2xGauss mech vs 3xPPC, the former can shoot all the day long while the latter, once he reaches heat cap needs to wait 10 sec to dissipate 30 heat (with average dissipation of 3) that's exactly 2.5 more that PPC's cooldown, that's the number by which rate of fire was increased.

Edited by kapusta11, 19 September 2014 - 05:17 AM.

[Kmieciu]

kapusta11, on 19 September 2014 - 05:13 AM, said:

Nah it's fairly simple actually. Let's look at example: 2xGauss mech vs 3xPPC, the former can shoot all the day long while the latter, once he reaches heat cap needs to wait 10 sec to dissipate 30 heat (with average dissipation of 3) that's exactly 2.5 damage more that PPC's cooldown, that's the number by which rate of rire was increased.

Yet the reality was that 2xPPC+Gauss was more effective than both 2xGauss and 3xPPC. Take a look at the videos from the first and only team tournament.

[ShadowDarter]

This is not a table top game so do not ever expect table top answers...

If it works then use it, and its working.

[Widowmaker1981]

little bit confused as to why people want to shaft energy weapons, they are already weaker than ballistic: make heat even more of an issue, and everyone will just use ACs, and mechs without good ballistic hardpoints will be doa (even more so than now). Also screws the viability of lights (and mediums to an extent) since they lack the tonnage to mount ballistics.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 19 September 2014 - 05:30 AM.

[kapusta11]

Widowmaker1981, on 19 September 2014 - 05:30 AM, said:

little bit confused as to why people want to shaft energy weapons, they are already weaker than ballistic: make heat even more of an issue, and everyone will just use ACs, and mechs without good ballistic hardpoints will be doa (even more so than now). Also screws the viability of lights (and mediums to an extent) since they lack the tonnage to mount ballistics.

Heat scale penalties assume greatly increased dissipation, in fact all energy weapon mechs would be just as strong as all ballistic ones.

[wanderer]

Not having a proper heat penalty system (instead relying on ghost heat) is one of those things where "minimally viable" actually grossly damages the entire gameplay system.

Overheat is one of those elegant tradeoffs that makes tabletop BT work- to the point where many 3025-era designs were built to JUST skate shutdown or ammo explosion heat levels, and TSM in later designs takes keeping a stable overheat level to benefit.

In MWO, a 'Mech should be slowing down and becoming less responsive as the heat bar rises, start taking minor damage to it's ammo slots (risking ammo exploding/critting useless), and eventually force-shutdown/'Mech damage if driven to 100%/100%+.



TT even has a nice, easily adaptable guide. Where it says "ammo explosion", just put in increasing levels of damage to random ammo criticals. "System failure" is internal damage as per MWO. "Pilot damage" can simply be damage to the cockpit. "-X Movement Points" is an equivalent loss in kph to movement, "+X modifier to fire" rendering the 'Mechs ability to adjust it's crosshairs, turn and torso twist increasingly more difficult.

As a note: 30 on this scale is equal to 100% overheat in MWO.

Edited by wanderer, 19 September 2014 - 05:46 AM.

[CharlieChap]

You could recreate the targeting penalties by making the HUD flicker out more and more also as heat rises (an effect that we already have with ECM, so the mechanism to do that is already ingame.)

Russ has said that he is going to talk about Ghost Heat in a town hall meeting hasn't he.

I suspect that all effort is best directed at CW currently and thats good isn't it ?, but hopefully after that it might be possible for PGI to revisit this or at least put it up for discussion. There are some good ideas out there and its been a 'hot' issue for much too long....

Quote

If it works then use it, and its working.

Still driving a Model T ford ?. We all would be if everybody thought like that.

Edited by CharlieChap, 19 September 2014 - 06:15 AM.

[Funky Bacon]

We do need a new heatscale / system.

Increase the heat dissipation some, make it faster, and then lock heat cap at 60.

0 to 30 heat is the safe zone, no penalties for being there, ever.

make 30 to 60 the danger zone where all the penalties start to hit your mech and the longer you stay in the danger zone the higher risk of shutting down unless you override.

going over 60 heat causes critical damage to all your system and will force a shutdown no matter what, but if you override, you pretty much melt and explode like you do now if overriding at above 100%.

High heat alpha strikes will be risky, but not lethal, chainfire becomes more promoted as staying in the 30's becomes more important even if you can go up to 60 and not shut down immediately, but you will risk internal damage, ammo explosions, slowdowns and other heat-related effects.

It would also remove the need for ghost heat, probably.

[Mowmentous]

Widowmaker1981, on 19 September 2014 - 05:30 AM, said:

little bit confused as to why people want to shaft energy weapons, they are already weaker than ballistic: make heat even more of an issue, and everyone will just use ACs, and mechs without good ballistic hardpoints will be doa (even more so than now). Also screws the viability of lights (and mediums to an extent) since they lack the tonnage to mount ballistics.

Ballistics need to be more powerful than energy weapons because:

• They weigh a lot more
  
• They take a lot more space
  
• They require ammo, which can run out, and explode, and takes space and weight

Lights will be fine, they will need to moderate their rate of fire like any other build. If anything, they will be less affected because engine heatsinks are more efficient than chassis heat sinks.

Edited by Mowmentous, 19 September 2014 - 07:14 AM.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

No thank you. Never. I understand what you TT guys are aiming at but you fail to understand that this is a First Person Shooter - not a tabletop game nor a simulator of any sort. Below is just an example of the heatscale in OP.


WHAT TT HEATSCALE WOULD DO IN MWO

5 Heat (16,6%) - -1 Movement Points

On a Jenner this means ~9% speed reduction. Max speed reduced from 152.7 kph to 139 kph. On an Atlas however this means 20% a drop from 60.4 kph to 48.3 kph with 340 engine.

8 Heat (27,6%) - +1 Modifier to Fire

A random number generated (RNG) variable to make you miss your shots where you aim them at. Skill reducing variable.

10 Heat (33%) - -2 movement Points

Jenner takes 18% speed reduction. Max speed reduced to 124,9 kph. Atlas takes 40% speed reduction. Max speed reduced to 36,2 kph.

13 Heat (43%) - +2 Modifier to Fire

Even more RNG to make you miss your shots.

14 Heat (47%) - Shutdown, avoid on 4+

33% chance to shutdown. More RNG. Skill reducing variable.

15 Heat (50%) - -3 Movement Points

Jenner takes 27% speed reduction. Max speed reduced to 111 kph. Atlas takes 60% speed reduction. Max speed reduced to 24.2 kph.

17 Heat (57%) - +3 Modifier to Fire

Even more RNG to make you miss your shots - at this point you'll be spreading dmg like a day one rookie.

18 Heat (60%) - Shutdown, avoid on 6+

50% change to shutdown. More RNG.

19 Heat (63%) - Ammo Explosion, avoid on 4+

33% chance to ammo explosion. Possible fatal. More RNG - think of arty headshots.

20 Heat (66%) - -4 Movement Points

Jenner takes 36% speed reduction. Max speed reduced to 97.1 kph. Atlas takes 80% speed reduction. Max speed reduced to 12.1 kph.

22 Heat (73%) - Shutdown, avoid on 8+

67% chance to shutdown. More RNG.

23 Heat (77%) - Ammo Explosion, avoid on 6+

50% chance to ammo explosion. Possible fatal. More RNG.

24 Heat (80) - +4 Modifier to Fire

More RNG penalties to aim. Nearly impossible to hit anything (think of firing while using jump jets)

25 Heat (83%) - -5 Movement Points

Jenner takes 46% speed reduction. Max speed reduced to 82.5 kph. Atlas is unable to move at all.

26 Heat (87%) - Shutdown, avoid on 10+

83% chance to shutdown. More RNG.

28 Heat (93%) - Ammo Explosion, avoid on 8+

67% to ammo explosion. Possible fatal. More RNG.

30 Heat (100%) - Shutdown

100% chance to shut down.


On suggestions like HUD flicker - I'm all in. But to add random elements to skill based shooter is just not going to work.

[InspectorG]

DEVIL'S ADVOCATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Im for a more BT heatscale system....really i am.

BUT!

Does it translate well into a first person shooter?

Will it shift the spectrum to the 'SIM' side moreso than the 'TWITCH' side???

It will GREATLY slow the pace of the game, not a bad thing in and of itself, but that also means time to play and rewards will need re-worked(rewards per hour)

Armor will likely need to be halved.

Energy Boats will suffer

More ammo explosions by virtue of more ballistic/missile boats/OVERHEATING

Speed tweak would likely need a tweak due to hot-movement penalties...

Lights would SUFFER. DPS would drop drastically to keep speed...because ballistic and large missile weapons are generally unfeasible. Plus they cant usually carry enough DHS due to tonnage/slot restrictions.

LOADOUTS would prolly be skewed to more STOCK versions, but with more ammo/DHS.
FF would likely become obsolete...more so than now. Slots would be needed for DHS.

[kapusta11]

ugrakarma, on 19 September 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

No thank you. Never. I understand what you TT guys are aiming at but you fail to understand that this is a First Person Shooter - not a tabletop game nor a simulator of any sort. Below is just an example of the heatscale in OP.


WHAT TT HEATSCALE WOULD DO IN MWO

5 Heat (16,6%) - -1 Movement Points

On a Jenner this means ~9% speed reduction. Max speed reduced from 152.7 kph to 139 kph. On an Atlas however this means 20% a drop from 60.4 kph to 48.3 kph with 340 engine.

8 Heat (27,6%) - +1 Modifier to Fire

A random number generated (RNG) variable to make you miss your shots where you aim them at. Skill reducing variable.

10 Heat (33%) - -2 movement Points

Jenner takes 18% speed reduction. Max speed reduced to 124,9 kph. Atlas takes 40% speed reduction. Max speed reduced to 36,2 kph.

13 Heat (43%) - +2 Modifier to Fire

Even more RNG to make you miss your shots.

14 Heat (47%) - Shutdown, avoid on 4+

33% chance to shutdown. More RNG. Skill reducing variable.

15 Heat (50%) - -3 Movement Points

Jenner takes 27% speed reduction. Max speed reduced to 111 kph. Atlas takes 60% speed reduction. Max speed reduced to 24.2 kph.

17 Heat (57%) - +3 Modifier to Fire

Even more RNG to make you miss your shots - at this point you'll be spreading dmg like a day one rookie.

18 Heat (60%) - Shutdown, avoid on 6+

50% change to shutdown. More RNG.

19 Heat (63%) - Ammo Explosion, avoid on 4+

33% chance to ammo explosion. Possible fatal. More RNG - think of arty headshots.

20 Heat (66%) - -4 Movement Points

Jenner takes 36% speed reduction. Max speed reduced to 97.1 kph. Atlas takes 80% speed reduction. Max speed reduced to 12.1 kph.

22 Heat (73%) - Shutdown, avoid on 8+

67% chance to shutdown. More RNG.

23 Heat (77%) - Ammo Explosion, avoid on 6+

50% chance to ammo explosion. Possible fatal. More RNG.

24 Heat (80) - +4 Modifier to Fire

More RNG penalties to aim. Nearly impossible to hit anything (think of firing while using jump jets)

25 Heat (83%) - -5 Movement Points

Jenner takes 46% speed reduction. Max speed reduced to 82.5 kph. Atlas is unable to move at all.

26 Heat (87%) - Shutdown, avoid on 10+

83% chance to shutdown. More RNG.

28 Heat (93%) - Ammo Explosion, avoid on 8+

67% to ammo explosion. Possible fatal. More RNG.

30 Heat (100%) - Shutdown

100% chance to shut down.


On suggestions like HUD flicker - I'm all in. But to add random elements to skill based shooter is just not going to work.

You just have no idea what you're talking about, should've started from that.