231 replies to this topic

[AztecD]

bt3025 had some good points, lock on your enemy before firing any weapon, allowing the mech to "aim", not just pinpoint where you wanted to hit.

I remember back in MW3 i loaded a nova with 6 LL and proceeded to blow my self up in the fist salvo, you need the heat penalties to prevent high alphas

even the screen flicker or the ammo explosion would be good to have, also speed reduction, i have seen spiders running full speed on 99% heat witn no penalties for running that hot.

[wanderer]

Quote

Otherwise my point being too much random elements to a first person shooter.

You don't have a dice roll to hit as it is. Heat effects that cause it to be harder to hit a target in MWO would have to make it more difficult to aim, period- in other words, twisting, turning, and getting that crosshair on target with more sluggish responses as heat levels rise. Not "roll 2d6 and see if you hit". There is no "to-hit roll" in MWO.

And you already take heat damage from critical overheat. Again, all you'd do in MWO is randomly tic heat damage to ammo slots- as heat goes up, so does damage. Instant 100% boom would be silly.

[KraftySOT]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 September 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

NOwhere at all realistic! Take those guys to a live shooting range and see if they can hit that accurately. when shooting a 9 lbs rifle. It is not as easy as the video games makes it look. fatigue would have them missing in no time.

I dont even have a problem with that...fatigue and such is something new to the FPS world. More serious shooters do a fairly good job at it. Arma 3 for instance has a pretty good (not great) fatigue, sway, drop, and wind system.

But even in counter strike the weapons are NOT all rail guns that fire perfectly accurate shots. Those guys in that video are just damned good.

CS has a problem in that the RNG for the raycasts, isnt really random (same in BF3 and 4 and COD)...its a "weighted" system, so you can have the weapon "pull" to the right or left or have the muzzle come up or depress with automatic fire.





And I want to point out that shooters, as a whole, are making more money, and have more players, now that they have these kinds of systems, versus the games of the early 2000s and 90s where those things didnt exist.

Realism is popular.

Edited by KraftySOT, 19 September 2014 - 08:57 AM.

[Tombstoner]

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

You will ALWAYS have a problem with Alpha strike meta, blatantly arbitrary heat and damage values, poptarting, armor values, and time to kill until you fix the way weapons are fired.

If in 15 years theres another mech game, and it has the same paradigm, it will have the same freaking problems.

Every game in the series has encountered this, and shrugged off the idea that they should be like other shooters, and its always the same issue...we rebalance heat, lore, armor, legs, and players start to leave.

I agree. but your never gonna get PGI to change anything. They cant see the difference between instantaneous heat and accumulated undissipated heat. they both interact the the heat cap of 30. thats for the accumulated heat not for instantaneous heat spikes. That's what we need to focus on. not just weapon alphas converging on one spot. TT 2d6 had the highers frequency of hits being the CT anyway.

[KraftySOT]

I have to admit I find myself liking everything Wanderer posts.

[Joseph Mallan]

Tombstoner, on 19 September 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

all you need to show is whats left over after 10 seconds of heat dissipation. that becomes your heat modifier level that last for 10 seconds and it starts over when ever you add more heat or take battle damge and loose heat sinks. just follow TT rules for a change and see what happens.... we are using the mech creation rules are we not....

A full turn is ten second Tomb. Heat phase was about 4-5 seconds of that 10 seconds.
10 Seconds covered:
Movement
Shooting
being shot
Physicals
Heat

MW:O has this so jacked up.

[KraftySOT]

Tombstoner, on 19 September 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

I agree. but your never gonna get PGI to change anything. They cant see the difference between instantaneous heat and accumulated undissipated heat. they both interact the the heat cap of 30. thats for the accumulated heat not for instantaneous heat spikes. That's what we need to focus on. not just weapon alphas converging on one spot. TT 2d6 had the highers frequency of hits being the CT anyway.

I disagree...and the only reason im here posting in these past weeks is because PGI says it can do better and is listening. Ive seen people like you guys argue this till youre blue in the face...and alot of you have come to grips with it.

Well I havent. Im gonna keep rallying for this until the game dies or its obvious PGI isnt really listening. Then ill just go back to lurking. But were not alone, theres ALOT of people who agree with this idea...theyve just given up.

Well I didnt waste energy and time with the CB or #savemwo or the purist rage...so ive got that energy and time to spend now.

If its fruitless, so be it. At least weve been saying this the entire time, for 20 years.



Though I do agree with you...I mean I just disagree that we should just give up and move on.

Edited by KraftySOT, 19 September 2014 - 09:01 AM.

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

DeathjesterUK, on 19 September 2014 - 12:03 AM, said:

So, I can clearly see that one of the big issues with the current iteration of the game is that the heat is...not so balanced. Having started playing the game again, I can see why. Ghost heat is killing creativity in the design of mechs and ultimately is not needed in the game. Why this was implemented I have no idea, when there is a great way, already laid out by FASA, to ensure that the heat has gradual degradation of the mechs performance.

Heat is something that should be hazardous to the mech and even to the pilot. There should be increasing performance hits from it being harder to target and hit, to the mech becoming slower and slower, to the risk of ammo exploding and vaporising your mech. There should even be an option to cook yourself in your cockpit from overheating. Take a look at the basic heat char below from Battletech. With some work, this could be used to make this game a far more thoughtful and tactical shooter...as it was supposed to be. Let me know what you guys think.

PS: It should come as no surprise that I think Ghost Heat should be removed completely.

Ghost Heat goes lethal.

[Tombstoner]

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

I disagree...and the only reason im here posting in these past weeks is because PGI says it can do better and is listening. Ive seen people like you guys argue this till youre blue in the face...and alot of you have come to grips with it.

Well I havent. Im gonna keep rallying for this until the game dies or its obvious PGI isnt really listening. Then ill just go back to lurking. But were not alone, theres ALOT of people who agree with this idea...theyve just given up.

Well I didnt waste energy and time with the CB or #savemwo or the purist rage...so ive got that energy and time to spend now.

If its fruitless, so be it. At least weve been saying this the entire time, for 20 years.



Though I do agree with you...I mean I just disagree that we should just give up and move on.

There are so many things that can only be address by a MWO 2.0. because the customer base has goten used to the way things are. it take a huge amount of momentum for PGI to budge on small things let alone something as contentious as a RNG.

I favor a RNG but i think extending combat ranges to such an extent that makes it much harder to place shots is a good compromise. Once you get into 300-400 meter then yes placing your shots is easy. We are gona have to live with it but the average game needs to have fights take place at much further ranges then what maps are currently designed for.

What never happens is for player feed back prior to something being released. granted i do seem to recall some play testing of clan mechs but the test server is kinda new, however we got blind sided by ECM and ghost heat.
Things have changed but the reality is still the same. We need to focus on ECM.

Of course by all means fight the good fight.

[KraftySOT]

And I mean look at this another way....if MWO is an FPS, so is War Thunder. Ultimately youre moving a mouse to try and click on the enemy and destroy them.

War Thunder is based on World War two. MWO is based on Battletech. In War Thunder, aiming is difficult, and convergence is a big deal, and all your weapons hitting is difficult to do....because it was difficult and it matter in world war two, which the game aims to recreate...

In MWO...based on battletech...aiming is a breeze, despite it being difficult in battletech, which the game is based on.

See where this line of thought is going?

A world war two game, lives and dies on its authenticity as well as its game play. You cant just throw world war two costumes on some great game play and expect a legion of adoring fans to come along for the ride. Theyll abandon it for Red Orchestra and War Thunder...this is what happened to Fighter Ace, microsofts online flight sim. It wasnt realistic, it wasnt really based on real world things, it died.

A battletech game lives and dies by its authenticity, and all we've ever seen, is DOA games that get hit with the crash cart until theyre given up on and the momento mori is read.

If youre aiming to recreate battletech....pin point aiming is not how you do that. And as we call see, it leads directly to ghost heat and nerfs. Which we hate.

[VanillaG]

Black Ivan, on 19 September 2014 - 12:52 AM, said:

+1 for OP.

Problem is that implementing the classic heat system also needs the upgrade of the double heatsinks oit's real 2.0vaue, not 1.4 as it is actualy. After that all weapons have to be rebalanced the new system. I don't think that PGI will all this work.

If you want to have 2.0 DHS you need to remove the heat related skills from the mech trees. If you didn't want to remove the skills change them from percentages buffs to straight values, i.e +.2 dissipation and +4 heat. Removing or changing those unlocks would immediately lower the heat threshold in the game. Then you could look at un-nerfing some of the heat values for weapons.

Ghost heat tries to mitigate the Alpha strike issue so that would need to remain in place until they looked at the convergence issue.

[KraftySOT]

Tombstoner, on 19 September 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

There are so many things that can only be address by a MWO 2.0. because the customer base has goten used to the way things are. it take a huge amount of momentum for PGI to budge on small things let alone something as contentious as a RNG.

I favor a RNG but i think extending combat ranges to such an extent that makes it much harder to place shots is a good compromise. Once you get into 300-400 meter then yes placing your shots is easy. We are gona have to live with it but the average game needs to have fights take place at much further ranges then what maps are currently designed for.

What never happens is for player feed back prior to something being released. granted i do seem to recall some play testing of clan mechs but the test server is kinda new, however we got blind sided by ECM and ghost heat.
Things have changed but the reality is still the same. We need to focus on ECM.

Of course by all means fight the good fight.

Thats a completely fair and understandable point of view. And I do agree we need to tackle the smaller easier things first as a community, and if all goes well there, then at some point move on the bigger and better things. I just dont want to forget that the basis of all of these problems, the reason were here with a player council and people got banned and all that jazz, is one of the fundamental problems of all the titles in the series. Pin point aiming.

If you can fix that...you can fix alot of the other problems.

ECM of course is really unrelated to the aiming, but it IS indicative of another problem....it exists the way it does because LRMs dont function correctly. The indirect fire system is bad, and the lrms are simply not reproducing the results they had in the TT.

Its harder to figure out what the LRM problem is because the armor values were doubled....which is of course a problem based on the pin point aiming again lol.

[Lefty Lucy]

Fut, on 19 September 2014 - 04:33 AM, said:

Yes please!
I can't even remember how many times I've posted this exact image on these forums.
In my opinion, MWO needs a more robust heat system - it doesn't even have to be as intricate as the chart quoted above. Just something that illustrates how important heat management is for BattleMechs. I honestly believe that this is the primary reason for MWO feeling less Mech-like than it should.

Here's the thing: many of the best TT mechs are designed so that they don't even touch this heat scale unless they have engine damage.

Heat management in TT is easily taken care of in mech design, and there are a wide variety of canon heat-neutral mechs even if you don't do much customization at your table.

[KraftySOT]

And I completely agree about the ranges of fights..

[Tombstoner]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 September 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

A full turn is ten second Tomb. Heat phase was about 4-5 seconds of that 10 seconds.
10 Seconds covered:
Movement
Shooting
being shot
Physicals
Heat

MW:O has this so jacked up.

Agreed but i envisioned the system recalculating and updating heat every second or when changes to heat or dissipation rate from damage occurs. The ten seconds is a reasonable abstraction for what happens. The advantage of a FPS is real time recalculating of future heat levels. ideally with heat effect lasting for 10 seconds.

You could be sitting cooling off from 10 heat and take an alpha and loose 80% of your heat sinks so what your heat would be in 10 seconds might spike.

[KraftySOT]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 September 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

Here's the thing: many of the best TT mechs are designed so that they don't even touch this heat scale unless they have engine damage.

Heat management in TT is easily taken care of in mech design, and there are a wide variety of canon heat-neutral mechs even if you don't do much customization at your table.

However, all those heat neutral mechs are incapable of one shot killing a medium or heavy, outside of a head hit that kills the pilot or destroys the head...

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

wanderer, on 19 September 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

You don't have a dice roll to hit as it is. Heat effects that cause it to be harder to hit a target in MWO would have to make it more difficult to aim, period- in other words, twisting, turning, and getting that crosshair on target with more sluggish responses as heat levels rise. Not "roll 2d6 and see if you hit". There is no "to-hit roll" in MWO.

So basically it will turn MWO even more Assault and Heavy mech oriented, because if Mediums and Lights lose their advantage - which is speed and fast torso movement - they would be even more disadvantaged than they are now. Depending on a role Assault mech it doesn't even have to move or torso twist to deal out lethal damage. And of course with these kind of penalties in place the gameplay would shift to that exactly.

Quote

And you already take heat damage from critical overheat. Again, all you'd do in MWO is randomly tic heat damage to ammo slots- as heat goes up, so does damage. Instant 100% boom would be silly.

Yes and I really like the mechanic. But when the damage is taken beyond 100% - you, the player, have the OPTION to override or exceed that 100% heat to take the penalties in place.

[KraftySOT]

And theres no such thing as a heat neutral mech carrying 4+ ER PPCs....or 6 LLs or any of that jazz.

Especially not IS mechs...3 slot DHS, plus an XL, Endo, Ferros...you have no spots left for 4 PPCs or 6 LLs AND being heat neutral.

I dont think anyone cares if you can fire two ER PPCs heat neutral...forever....you can do that now on the cold maps.

[Lefty Lucy]

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

However, all those heat neutral mechs are incapable of one shot killing a medium or heavy, outside of a head hit that kills the pilot or destroys the head...

Not even close to true. Even if you discount lucky TACs, there's always obscenities such as the Hellstar that pack 4 CERPPCs. It doesn't take much luck to get two ST hits and KO an XL light or med in one round of fire.

KraftySOT, on 19 September 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

And theres no such thing as a heat neutral mech carrying 4+ ER PPCs....or 6 LLs or any of that jazz.

Especially not IS mechs...3 slot DHS, plus an XL, Endo, Ferros...you have no spots left for 4 PPCs or 6 LLs AND being heat neutral.

I dont think anyone cares if you can fire two ER PPCs heat neutral...forever....you can do that now on the cold maps.

Hellstar. Any campaign with omnis.

[KraftySOT]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 September 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

Not even close to true. Even if you discount lucky TACs, there's always obscenities such as the Hellstar that pack 4 CERPPCs. It doesn't take much luck to get two ST hits and KO an XL light or med in one round of fire.



Hellstar. Any campaign with omnis.

TACs arent CBT, though, neither is an ER PPC....but yes thats absolutely true. Without a head hit, it would never happen.


And the Hellstar is in 3079!!!

Come on dude

Edited by KraftySOT, 19 September 2014 - 09:24 AM.