231 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Just to put this out there.

Spoiler

That... is kinda sad. I spent about 2 minute and some odd seconds fighting. I killed 1 Atlas, 1 TW, 1 Nova, 2 Jagermechs (one AC/40, one 4 ML and twin Gauss). I did this without any torso twisting, any fantastic stuff, and in the end I had 48% heat. That was pretty much as high as it got. 2 ML. 2 Streaks. 1 LB-10X. 1 AC/5. 10 DHs. It's true, in tabletop I'd be heat neutral easily. It's also true that at 1 shot per 10 seconds I wouldn't have done ANY of those kills, it'd have taken 6 minutes+, etc.

Now, we fire a lot faster. But at the same time I have 20% additional threshold, 15% additional cooling, and I'm firing the AC/5 6 to 7 times faster, the LBX roughly 5 to 6 times faster, the 2 MLs 3 times faster and the Streaks a whopping 3 times faster; when most of the time they would have NEVER fired to begin with.

Clan mechs have a lot of damage spread. A Clan mech wouldn't have been that lucky. But that's another story entirely.

Anyway. I would like to bring something to the table.

This is 1 firing of all the weapons on a Dire Wolf.

In the first 14 seconds I do an alpha strike. Turn off for a split second.

Now, exact same loadout. No 'mech skill' unlocks in either case.
Watch this. All those weapons here, are fired one to two at a time. All weapons fired. Look what happens.

Spoiler

Heat Phase
-------------------
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) gains 73 heat, sinks 44 heat and is now at 29 heat.
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) needs a 5+ to avoid shutdown, rolls 9 : avoids successfully!
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) needs a 8+ to avoid ammo explosion, rolls 5 : fails to avoid explosion.
*** LRM 10 Ammo EXPLODES! 110 DAMAGE! ***
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) takes 110 damage to LT.
SECTION DESTROYED,
LIMB BLOWN OFF Left Arm blown off.
remaining 89 damage prevented by CASE.
Critical hit on LT. Roll is 6; no effect.

Pilot of Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) "Bryan Otsuka" takes 2 damage.
Pilot of Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) "Bryan Otsuka" needs a 3 to stay conscious. Rolls 6 : successful!

Pilot of Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) "Bryan Otsuka" needs a 5 to stay conscious. Rolls 7 : successful!

Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime needs a 6+ for coolant failure, rolls 8 : fails.
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime's coolant is now less effective.

Edited by Koniving, 19 September 2014 - 02:04 PM.

[Koniving]

Christof Romulus, on 19 September 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

+1 for THIS GUY.

Seriously, Ghost heat was created to stop everyone from filling every energy slot on their mech with PPCs and every ballistic slot on their mech with AC 2's. This is the exact opposite of creativity - it was bland and everyone was doing it!

This breaks down weapon combinations that aren't combinations - A large laser firing with... OH A LARGE LASER! Perfect! Same range, damage, cooldown, and if fired from the same body location, no additional effort is required! Sooooooo creative!

Mechs that utilized multiple weapon systems were at a disadvantage to those that stacked the same weapon. Ghost heat helps mitigate this and thus creates builds that aren't entirely ONE weapon system.

The ONLY downside that I see is that it punishes stock builds - which are the only mechs that I think should either be exempt, or have some perk or quirk that makes it possible for the stock builds to function.

Consider my response to that person:

Koniving, on 19 September 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Ghost heat tries to simulate the effects of the 30 threshold heat system against said boats.

In 3 volleys of twin AC/20s, the ghost heat will possibly shut you down with 15 DHS.
With 15 DHS, 3 volleys without ghost heat and with 30 threshold would GUARANTEED shut you down. With the penalties too, you'd detonate your ammunition, and chances are you probably shut down on the second volley anyway.

Ghost heat on PPCs. 2 PPCs is safe. 3 or more is punished. You can even fire 4 PPCs at once just fine. It's a bit hot, but meh. Just wait 6 seconds and you're fine again. You can even chain fire them to last even longer.
30 threshold: 4 PPCs, 133% heat. Shutdown. Guaranteed explosion of ammo. 3 PPCs at once: 100% heat. Shutdown. Possible explosion of ammo. 2 PPCs at 66.67% heat.

Ghost heat on LPLs. You are safe firing 2 LPLs. You get punished for 3. You can fire 5 LPLs without shutting down with enough heatsinks.
30 threshold: 2 LPLs are safe but there's a shutdown risk. 3 LPLs and you shut down. 4 and it's 133% heat.

It goes on, and on, and on...

With just 30 threshold with or without the penalty system and no ghost heat you'd have even more punishments for boating than Ghost heat provides. Which means even less reason to boat.

Which also does NOT punish stock loadouts, accomplishes the same thing but even harsher against mass amounts of the same weapon -- except for the ones that Battletech meant you to pool together and boat. Like 6+ medium lasers, or 12 small lasers or 6 AC/2s.
You are intended to boat smaller weapons.
You are not intended to boat bigger weapons.
30 threshold treats it all perfectly, provided that the heat values are NOT changed on the weapons (i.e. big lasers getting reduced heat. That's bad.)

But further more, spaced out, while 3 PPCs at once is an instant shutdown, you can fire roughly 6 to 8 PPCs across 10 seconds before getting uncomfortably warm with 18 DHS.

And what has this accomplished? Damage spread.

Edited by Koniving, 19 September 2014 - 12:50 PM.

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

Christof Romulus, on 19 September 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

+1 for THIS GUY.

Seriously, Ghost heat was created to stop everyone from filling every energy slot on their mech with PPCs and every ballistic slot on their mech with AC 2's. This is the exact opposite of creativity - it was bland and everyone was doing it!

This breaks down weapon combinations that aren't combinations - A large laser firing with... OH A LARGE LASER! Perfect! Same range, damage, cooldown, and if fired from the same body location, no additional effort is required! Sooooooo creative!

Mechs that utilized multiple weapon systems were at a disadvantage to those that stacked the same weapon. Ghost heat helps mitigate this and thus creates builds that aren't entirely ONE weapon system.

The ONLY downside that I see is that it punishes stock builds - which are the only mechs that I think should either be exempt, or have some perk or quirk that makes it possible for the stock builds to function.

Now I gonna brake a bone of all those theories about weapon convergence and boating.

Let's take a look into Human history. All what humans done was always trying to find the most effective way to kill each other. And than in some game about huge battle robots in far future is such nice thing as Lab, where player can rebuild some walker chassis fitting it with most effective equipment and weapons. So, there starts what people know as "boating".
So there was a lot of things done to increase the Time To Kill, but does it works? Nope. Even now. There is still some "robots" "boating" 3-4-5 LRM20, there is still some "robots" boating ERPPC's, ERLLasers, just LLaser, LPulse Lasers... medium lazers, anything what can be boated. Any attempt to get rid off boaing fails one or another way. When there was JJ nerf appeared decreased mobility shortened TTK, "boating" become a broblem again. ECM is the one thing that protects "robots" from being victim of a missile boating... suddenly there talk about ECM nerf rose up. Why? Cause only one last type of boating become in danger.
So. might be just get rid of Ghost Heat and allow boating than cry about "clan R op", "lurms R op", "this R op" and "that R op". Yes, it will become a Counter of Duty Mech OPs... but does we rolling a dice when target locks?

Koniving... besides, can just SMD. Trial Victor FTW...

Edited by Hagoromo Gitsune, 19 September 2014 - 01:16 PM.

[DeathjesterUK]

Kiiyor, on 19 September 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Maybe.

The issue is n00bs.

You know, the guys who shout in triumph when they manage to get the feet bits working with the top bits, before exploding when the team retaliates after they successfully test their weapons on the nearest Jenner.

You add another layer of complexity to the MWO Lasagne and new players won't bother to stick around past the first bite, despite the delicious bechamel sauce and glistening chunks of beef with a cup full of hearty vegetables thrown in, because they add a surprising extra dimension to the dish, besides cheese-guilt.








Edit: Not that I don't want it. I think the idea is awesome.
/devilsadvocate

This game has already been 'dumbed down' enough for the CoD Kiddies. Its time to add some complexity back into the game and make this something unique. Im so tired of this dumbing down of games because its 'too hard'. Learn to play better is my response to that.

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

DeathjesterUK, on 19 September 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

This game has already been 'dumbed down' enough for the CoD Kiddies. Its time to add some complexity back into the game and make this something unique. Im so tired of this dumbing down of games because its 'too hard'. Learn to play better is my response to that.

Do that and PGI will lose customers, lost customer is lost money, lost money is.... "good bye MWO". GL:HF

Edit: Idgfk... I can return to my WT to enjoy realistic arcade planes or enjoy BF4, or... many more. But if I can do everything to not allowed some TT freaks to ruin the great/awesome game. I will.

Edited by Hagoromo Gitsune, 19 September 2014 - 01:26 PM.

[Roadbeer]

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 19 September 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

Do that and PGI will lose customers, lost customer is lost money, lost money is.... "good bye MWO". GL:HF

Edit: Idgfk... I can return to my WT to enjoy realistic arcade planes or enjoy BF4, or... many more. But if I can do everything to not allowed some TT freaks to ruin the great/awesome game. I will.

(Insert Philosoraptor meme here)

So, now you have a conundrum.

Would it bring back more of the Founders, who gave money on a product sight unseen who love BT/MW, and have a greater level of disposable income than it would drive away WASDerps who can't handle complexity and move from one F2P title to another while exploiting moms Credit Card?

Hmmmm...

Edited by Roadbeer, 19 September 2014 - 01:32 PM.

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

Roadbeer, on 19 September 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

(Insert Philosoraptor meme here)

So, now you have a conundrum.

Would it bring back more of the Founders, who gave money on a product sight unseen who love BT/MW, and have a greater level of disposal than it would drive away WASDerps who can't handle complexity and move from one F2P title to another while exploiting moms Credit Card?

Hmmmm...

Ask your self why they gone? Might be it was your "by TT" balancing made this game unplayable to most of them?

[Roadbeer]

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 19 September 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

Ask your self why they gone? Might be it was your "by TT" balancing made this game unplayable to most of them?

Nah brah,
They started ejecting the further the boat moved from MW/BT and started becoming Call of Battlehalo 27.

There is a reason I began calling it Mechwarrior: In Name Only.

I only returned because I saw statements that have lead me to believe that much that was kludged in because "programming is hard" are being looked at again, and changes in the upper managements attitude. but most of all, for a love of the BT/MW universe.

I could play Planetside 2 or WoT for a better "combat" experience, but there isn't much out there for a Mech (please stop calling them robots) experience.

Edited by Roadbeer, 19 September 2014 - 01:56 PM.

[DeathjesterUK]

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 19 September 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

Ask your self why they gone? Might be it was your "by TT" balancing made this game unplayable to most of them?

Um, no. While I cannot speak for them myself, I would be safe betting that the poor implementation of the Heat and it not being more detailed as the FASA table is is likely one of the reasons that they have left.

When this game was first marketed to get funding, it was touted as a game made by Battletech fans for Battletech fans. That means those people who put money down on the game back then would have been fair in assuming that the heat would resemble what is being suggested here.

I really hate saying this but, the heat scale should be introduced and people should adapt to that change.

You also realise that Roadbeer is one of those founders right?

Further, I think you are being awfully dismissive and insulting of peoples ability to adapt and manage heat. You are basically just turning around and insulting the intelligence of everyone.

Edited by DeathjesterUK, 19 September 2014 - 01:54 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Here is what I'd set for MWO.

First apply these effect to all mechs, if they hit that heat in realtime (Percentages can be adjusted based on what is best for applying the effects, so instant application could see lower Percentages, a delayed application of effects should have an appropriate chance to apply):


(Since, there are no effects below 5, 4 to 0 is not shown in chart)

---

Next I will cut Heat Sink Capacity for both SHS and DHS to 0.1. So this way, any mech will get 30 capacity, plus their Heat Sink count for Capacity.

What this does is severely limit the heat spikes we can allow on a mech. So the capacity difference going from 10 HS to 40 HS is 3 (each group of 10 HS, gives 1).

So we can still fire a single ERPPC and any combination of weapons up to a spike of 17 when stationary on a cold map, and the first penalty is only an Override-able Shutdown at 14 heat.

So, if a player chooses to fire a combo of weapons above that threshold, they will shutdown (if they did not Override first) and would incur any appropriate Heat Effect (the first dangerous effect begins at 18 heat).

So as in the original, where each weapon rolled separately, we would need to fire high heat weapons separately, while certain low heat weapons can still be fired together up to a range of a ~14 to 17 point heat spike.

Heat Scale penalties could still be adjusted, but this is going by weapons' base heat values first anyway, and I mock up another table of various weapon combos too if asked.

And if any mech is negatively affected, mechs can receive quirks to aid said mech on a case by case basis.

---

And something that I've read about with Clan mechs is that they carry redundant weapons to defend against through armor criticals (something MWO doesn't have) that can take out equipment. So they really didn't carry all of that weaponry to group them together to fire them all at once, as often as the can as we currently can in MWO.

Here is a worksheet that shows how that could look in regards to heat spikes, the bottom portion shows the amount of heat dissipated over a 10 second period:


With this in place we will receive appropriate Heat Effects according to how much heat we gain, and we can look into having all DHS being true .2 dissipation instead of having a difference between Internal and External DHS.

Also, we can utlizie the ability to add quirks where mechs would need a boost, such as energy heavy mechs for example. The Awesomes where the first get a valuable quirk after all, I'm sure more will follow on a case by case basis.

[Fut]

DeathjesterUK, on 19 September 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

This game has already been 'dumbed down' enough for the CoD Kiddies. Its time to add some complexity back into the game and make this something unique. Im so tired of this dumbing down of games because its 'too hard'. Learn to play better is my response to that.

A million times this.
The only thing that makes this game worth anything is the fact that it's Battletech/Mechwarrior. If PGI would make it more BT like, we'd be in for a real treat.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Roadbeer, on 19 September 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

I think, this would allow the (re)implementation of 2.0 DHS, allow for heat neutral mechs, remove the bristling juggernauts of top end weapons and best of all, wipe away the need for voodoo heat mechanics. Just putting it out there.

At best it allows new exploits to be found, new min/maxed superior builds and more whining in the forums. IS balance with ghost heat was very good before the clans. Then Clans come out unbalanced and it all starts again.

On company vs. company matches it really isn't about PP FLD or insane high alpha strikes anymore. It is about effective DPS. The team that puts out more effective DPS from ranges 600m to 0m wins. None of the heat suggestions have a fix for this and it is a fact. Reducing to 30 heat treshold and increasing dissipation does not lower DPS or TTK. Putting in severe movement penalties just shifts the effective high heat DPS to 500 meters.

By all means, lower the treshold to 30, give true DHS and remove ghost heat. It only helps high DPS builds to kill the enemy even faster. TTK decreases. After that more double armor perhaps?

[Roadbeer]

ugrakarma, on 19 September 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

At best it allows new exploits to be found, new min/maxed superior builds and more whining in the forums. IS balance with ghost heat was very good before the clans. Then Clans come out unbalanced and it all starts again.

On company vs. company matches it really isn't about PP FLD or insane high alpha strikes anymore. It is about effective DPS. The team that puts out more effective DPS from ranges 600m to 0m wins. None of the heat suggestions have a fix for this and it is a fact. Reducing to 30 heat treshold and increasing dissipation does not lower DPS or TTK. Putting in severe movement penalties just shifts the effective high heat DPS to 500 meters.

By all means, lower the treshold to 30, give true DHS and remove ghost heat. It only helps high DPS builds to kill the enemy even faster. TTK decreases. After that more double armor perhaps?

1. "IS balance with ghost heat was very good", Seriously?
2. The company v company argument is more than a little absurd. The "high DPS" and TTK comes from coordination and who is better at communicating battlefield movements, there "isn't a force in the 'verse" that is going to nerf that.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Roadbeer, on 19 September 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

1. "IS balance with ghost heat was very good", Seriously?
2. The company v company argument is more than a little absurd. The "high DPS" and TTK comes from coordination and who is better at communicating battlefield movements, there "isn't a force in the 'verse" that is going to nerf that.

1. Yes. It efficiently prevented long range sniping / kiting decks to have too much advantage over the brawlers. I am talking after the JJ nerf of course because it stopped the overpowered jump snipers to be no1 thing. Brawlers had in theory enough time to close in because of the lowered damage output JJ nerf and ghost heat gave to sniper builds.

2. Coordination is only to maximize you DPS on effective range. If your effective range is < 300 meter, of course you coordinate your company to that distance. If it is 600 meters you coordinate it to that. That's what I mean - using your decks effective DPS to maximum. If the 270m deck can close in without 600m deck capitalizing their advantage they win - if the 600m deck can effectively capitalize their advantage before 270m deck closes in they win. Simplified of course, but basically this is the deal.

[Christof Romulus]

Koniving, on 19 September 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

Consider my response to that person:



Which also does NOT punish stock loadouts, accomplishes the same thing but even harsher against mass amounts of the same weapon -- except for the ones that Battletech meant you to pool together and boat. Like 6+ medium lasers, or 12 small lasers or 6 AC/2s.
You are intended to boat smaller weapons.
You are not intended to boat bigger weapons.
30 threshold treats it all perfectly, provided that the heat values are NOT changed on the weapons (i.e. big lasers getting reduced heat. That's bad.)

But further more, spaced out, while 3 PPCs at once is an instant shutdown, you can fire roughly 6 to 8 PPCs across 10 seconds before getting uncomfortably warm with 18 DHS.

And what has this accomplished? Damage spread.

Hio!

I get what you're trying to say - but people don't like the Random number generator - for example if you reach the chance for shutdown or ammo explosion - if sometimes you're okay and sometimes you're not, it's unreliable.

Additionally, what you propose is an ammo explosion effectively instantly if someone gets too hot (as this was the way it was in TT) but what your system doesn't include with that scale is the buffer effects that heatsinks provided TT.

You fire an ac 20 for 7 heat, but if you had A FUSION ENGINE (10 heatsinks standard), congratulations, even while RUNNING you're heat neutral.

If you propose to implement the scale but not the way that heatsinks worked in TT, then that's something that could be interesting - perhaps give it a try on the test servers - pose that to Russ.

[Morashtak]

(note: the game is too far along to add this but the argument should be made)

A true avatar with Piloting, Gunnery, and Technician trees would be able to handle the old TT heat scale very well - Dump XP into the appropriate "Heat Management" talent and the "Ammo Explosion x%" could drop down to quite manageable levels.

Goes without saying that a Gunnery tree with a Convergence talent XP dump would do the same thing for convergence.

Put XP into both and the player has more and better shots.

But it's not to be so what do we propose to go along with this - Modules? Consumables? More XP grind (optional; for each Mech)? Redesign of existing modules and/or consumables?

Cool Shot works well.

Run Hot would do...? Or add more modules; "Run Hotter", "Run Hottest", "Run Red Hot"?

[wanderer]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 September 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

A full turn is ten second Tomb. Heat phase was about 4-5 seconds of that 10 seconds.

MW:O has this so jacked up.

TT simplifies turns down to "everything that happens in 10 seconds. MWO's closest tabletop equivalent was the 2.5 sec/turn Solaris rules, and those were mostly shot down for tabletop play past 1v1's because it'd take a bloody computer to run the game at that level of detail, not dice, pencils, and paper.

Whelp, MWO happens to run on computers. Heat phase never was the "last 4-5 seconds"- in reality, heat sinks functioned constantly to pull heat off a 'Mech. TT just only tabbed the results once every 10 seconds. S7 did it at the end of every 2.5 seconds, and MWO does it once per second.

[wanderer]

Koniving, on 19 September 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

It was someone else's thereotical mech. My Battlemaster with 7 PPCs had 17 DHS.
Those 4 PPCs are fired across 10 seconds. Do they hit the same body part?
I also know that those PPCs will hit up to 4 different body parts and in the best case scenario might hit 3 on one body part, though not necessarily at the same time.
And if you want to claim lack of convergence, well then how are you going to aim 4 weapons down 4 different sights at once?

Now in lore, you have a delayed charge up which helps dissipate the heat. You also have heatsinks that absorb about 50 to 75% of the heat immediately, and dissipate the rest of the heat over time.
Lets take your Hellstar then.
The Hellstar's got 30 DHS, 60 cooling across 10 seconds.

Let's just take that properly- that is, Solaris VII style. Heat scale is x4 for weapons heat and the overheat tops out at 120 (that is, 30x4), as you get your sinks kicking in 4 times (once every 2.5 seconds) for equivalent cooling to standard TT 10 second.

Hellstar alphas! That's 60 heat per gun, times four. It adds 240 heat, cools 60 of it away, and instantly shuts down. In fact, if we actually used the advanced heat scale that goes to 50 (Solaris: 200) it's going to seriously risk damaging the 'Mech at 180 overheat (45 on advanced scale). The odds of equipment failure are huge, pilot damage is equally so, and if the 'Mech had ammo, it'd unavoidably cook off from the sheer blowtorch heat generated. In the next 2.5 seconds, it'll dump another 60 heat and drop to the equivalent of 100% (30 heat on advanced scale) MWO- still hot, but not dangerous to itself. 2.5 seconds after that, it's at a "mere" 50% in MWO terms (60 heat Solaris = 15 heat standard TT), and zeroes out right when the PPCs are recharged, the next turn after that.

If it fired one every turn, it'd be heat neutral. If it fired two per turn, it'd go +60,+60 again with the second pair to +120(+120 -> 30 TT scale), -60 to +60 again (all PPCs recharging), -60 to zero overheat (first pair of PPCs recharge at the end of this turn), +60 from firing the first pair (second pair of PPCs recharges), +120....repeating.

Whattya know. People don't unleash mega-blasts anymore if heat works like that.

[CharlieChap]

Quote

Koniving, on 19 September 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Ghost heat tries to simulate the effects of the 30 threshold heat system against said boats.

In 3 volleys of twin AC/20s, the ghost heat will possibly shut you down with 15 DHS.
With 15 DHS, 3 volleys without ghost heat and with 30 threshold would GUARANTEED shut you down. With the penalties too, you'd detonate your ammunition, and chances are you probably shut down on the second volley anyway.

Ghost heat on PPCs. 2 PPCs is safe. 3 or more is punished. You can even fire 4 PPCs at once just fine. It's a bit hot, but meh. Just wait 6 seconds and you're fine again. You can even chain fire them to last even longer.
30 threshold: 4 PPCs, 133% heat. Shutdown. Guaranteed explosion of ammo. 3 PPCs at once: 100% heat. Shutdown. Possible explosion of ammo. 2 PPCs at 66.67% heat.

Ghost heat on LPLs. You are safe firing 2 LPLs. You get punished for 3. You can fire 5 LPLs without shutting down with enough heatsinks.
30 threshold: 2 LPLs are safe but there's a shutdown risk. 3 LPLs and you shut down. 4 and it's 133% heat.

It goes on, and on, and on...

With just 30 threshold with or without the penalty system and no ghost heat you'd have even more punishments for boating than Ghost heat provides. Which means even less reason to boat.

I really like the sound of this personally and its not hard to imagine the effect it would have on gameplay .
It would make MWO much more difficult to play and more tactical. Players would have to carefully pick weapons , monitor heat and be patient. Battles would become much slower and attritional.

I would love to try such a system as above...but although it may not be technicaly huge to do (it maybe I don't know, I doubt it though..), it would change gameplay such a lot wouldn't it, could PGI ride the backlash of that even if in agreement ?.

(Just thinking through some points of view here. I suspect it would be too much of a gamble at this point, you would have to believe VERY strongly to risk a change with such a large effect as this to core gameplay :-( ....)

Edited by CharlieChap, 19 September 2014 - 05:26 PM.

[Kiiyor]

DeathjesterUK, on 19 September 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

This game has already been 'dumbed down' enough for the CoD Kiddies. Its time to add some complexity back into the game and make this something unique. Im so tired of this dumbing down of games because its 'too hard'. Learn to play better is my response to that.

Hey, I'm all for it, really. My concern about new players is valid, however. Think back to when you started - how long did it take you to become competitive? Not proficient - competitive. Maybe I'm old, but it took me a while. Most young whippersnappers (lol) nowadays need to be engaged far, far earlier than previous generations. It's why people like Michael Bay movies so much; there's usually an explosion in the first thirty seconds.

What we need, is in-game tutorials. Once people can get hands on with a system in an environment that doesn't reward experimentation with sudden, brutal and bewildering death, adding extra complexity probably isn't as big an issue.