175 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

Empyrus, on 19 September 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

Effective (max damage) ranges are relatively low, with the ERPPC having longest at 810m if i recall correctly.
Perhaps 660m is too little.. but overall, i think all weapons should have their ranges reduces, specifically the fall-off ranges. Mech combat should be in-your-face thing (indeed this is why the tabletop has such ridiculously small weapon ranges).

I know there is a roleplay version of BT. Is that Mechwarrior? It should have the "realistic" ranges of all BT weapons in it if so.
I know Games Workshop released a system with weapon ranges that were far, far longer than the TT versions in WH40k.
I personally like long ranged combat (i play a sniper in fps games) and i find the current weapon ranges in MWO a little short for my liking, but i realize that the ranges are (mostly) based on TT so will be short.

While weapons have a shorter max damage range than LRM's i find that acceptable as while using LRM's you need to stay facing the target allowing the enemy to get multiple hits on you. Also, at longer ranges you are not likely to hit the target at all if the enemy isn't dc/afk/asleep/drunk
In fact i never use LRM's at anything over around 500m generally and 800m at the most and very rarely...which is quite sad for a supposed "long range weapon"
The incoming missiles warning needs to go before LRM's will ever be useful in their intended role.

[Empyrus]

Lynx7725, on 19 September 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

Doesn't work that way unless someone locked the target up, or the pilot has direct LOS himself, or a friendly UAV is overhead. It's a fundamental -- that's why surprise attack works, because the lone picket gets hit by 4 mechs he had no time to target to warn the rest of the team, then that 4 enemy mechs get a free invisible pass into the back lines. If just LOS is enough, then surprise attacks are spoilt the first instance someone lay eyes on the attackers.

The system inherently limits the transmission to the locked target, in a way is to make the game a bit more of a challenge. The spotter has to choose which target to highlight to the rest of the team.

Note that there is a difference between unlocked target, locked target, and missile locks.

Odd, i can target on not-locked targets anyone in my team sees even if i lack LOS. Of course if my teammates lose their LOS on the targets, my locks would end up immediately broken (no comment on how target decay module affects this, i've never had it).

EDIT i'm talking about targeting only, not information sharing. Missile lock and targeting are one and the same in my eyes, as long as i can target someone, i can lock my missiles, assuming no ECM interfering with anything.

Edited by Empyrus, 19 September 2014 - 10:02 AM.

[Lynx7725]

Wolfways, on 19 September 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

I know there is a roleplay version of BT. Is that Mechwarrior? It should have the "realistic" ranges of all BT weapons in it if so.
I know Games Workshop released a system with weapon ranges that were far, far longer than the TT versions in WH40k.

Games Workshop? Are you confusing with Wizkids' "ClickyTech" version?

Wolfways, on 19 September 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

In fact i never use LRM's at anything over around 500m generally and 800m at the most and very rarely...which is quite sad for a supposed "long range weapon"

To be frank, the TT long range for LRMs was 630m anyway, so your engagement range is about right. Effectiveness tails off rapidly after that, but I do toss some rounds out to harass and at good opportunities.

Technically speaking, with range falloff, LRMs do quite consistent damage all the way out. I've been in firefights on Alpine where I survived and (probably) did more damage to direct fire mechs (implication: both of us were firing in plain LOS to each other.. well they were doing peekaboo, I was stuck on the side of the hill..), simply because I know at the range, their lasers and AC start to lose damage and spreads all over my torso, whereas my LRMs just do their 1.1 damage per hit, regardless of the range. When viewed with that perspective, it's not an indecent long range weapon, simply because its damage curve is very consistent over the entire effective band.

[PeeWrinkle]

It's clear to me that there are definitely times not to lock, but using that dang "R" key is vital.
The two times I can think of not to lock are:
1: You can see LRMs are not hitting the target - stop locking to prevent your team from wasting missiles or lock another target.
2: You can't safely lock a target - usually only applies early while spotting because once the brawl starts there is no reason not to have a target locked. And no one in the game expects a lock to be held when your face is getting shot off anyway.

That said locking targets is vital because it gives the enemy mechs position to your entire team, it gives you information on the mechs loadout and damaged areas, and it helps you because the teams LRM boats can damage the target. The more damage early the easier it is to kill them later - soften them up a bit before the brawl.

Also kill stealing LRM boats are the least of my concern when locking. Besides light and medium laser boats kill steal with the best of them, so I could care less about kill steals in general (well except for the idiot who runs directly in front of you while you are engaged at close range to cut off your fire)!

When you think about it, getting a lock gives you tons of bonuses for XP and Credits, so losing the kill does not affect this much anyway. Between Assists, spotting assists, savior kills those will rack up. And lets also face the fact that it is much better to win with 0 kills than loose with 5. I think if people cared more about winning each match versus their own match performance, stats, and score you'd see a lot more team play mechanics in pugs.

If you don't believe me just pay attention to your match scores and what your XP and Credits are at the end. I score much higher in all areas when I only have one or two kills compared to when I have 3 or more on most occasions. Sounds crazy but racking up on Savior Kills is the way to go! Heck the other night I had one match (after 1st win bonus) where I had 4 kills and a match score of 82 with over 600 damage and ended up with just over 1200XP. The next match I had 1 kill, 10 assists, and 4 savior kills. I did just over 550 damage and had a match core of 78 and had over 3100XP. This seems to be the norm for me, which is probably why I don't sweat the kills and much prefer winning.

Besides that when you run into a mech that is almost fully armored and your alpha is only around 30-50, those LRM's really help. Without them you don't get the kill because you can't do enough damage on your own (hence the focus fire strategy - works darn good)! Actually in many cases when you don't lock targets you’re the one who gets killed instead because your enemy has you targeted and you’re getting LRMed/focus fired like crazy!

Pug or not players should play to support their team and not their own stats. LRM boats, in my experience, aren't trying to get free kills and rack up damage they are just trying to support their team. Help them help you! And just to clarify I very rarely use LRMs much less boat them, but I always target and even run TAG and NARC at times to support them.

[Lynx7725]

Empyrus, on 19 September 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

Odd, i can target on not-locked targets anyone in my team sees even if i lack LOS. Of course if my teammates lose their LOS on the targets, my locks would end up immediately broken (no comment on how target decay module affects this, i've never had it).

My understanding is that somebody has to lock it up; if that somebody that has the lock loses LOS, the lock breaks after 1s, 3s with Advanced Decay, or immediately if the target has Radar Depriv.

It is possible that with Advanced Decay, your spotter could lock, get it broken, and reacquire within the 3s, and you won't know the difference on the receiving end of the transmission.

Empyrus, on 19 September 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

EDIT i'm talking about targeting only, not information sharing. Missile lock and targeting are one and the same in my eyes, as long as i can target someone, i can lock my missiles, assuming no ECM interfering with anything.

They are actually two different, but quite related items. Targeting by yourself is based on LOS, as you know, and goes out to 800m, plus any bonus from modules or BAP. This LOS-based targeting would put unfilled triangles up. Locking one of the targets up will enable more detailed information, plus (to my understanding) transmission of that one target to the rest of your team. This is how you can get filled triangle targets out of your 800m sensor range -- a spotter transmitted that target from, say, 1500m out of your position.

Only upon locking up this way, can you apply missile locks. Which you would be familiar with.

A very simple example would be when your team's scout hared off at the start to harass the enemy spawn. If he locks up one, you'll see the target.. but logic would dictate that so early in the game, the enemy spawn would likely be together and your scout would be seeing more than one target. He's choosing only one to transmit though.

Because of the way target transmission works, you can in theory have all 12 enemy mech with filled triangles, because all 12 of your team locked up different enemy mechs and the information is shared. But that's rather rare.

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

ECM for people! (free, to every one) Than lock a targets

[Mercules]

People don't lock targets because they are afraid someone else might accidentally get the kill....

[Empyrus]

Lynx7725, on 19 September 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

[/size]
My understanding is that somebody has to lock it up; if that somebody that has the lock loses LOS, the lock breaks after 1s, 3s with Advanced Decay, or immediately if the target has Radar Depriv.

It is possible that with Advanced Decay, your spotter could lock, get it broken, and reacquire within the 3s, and you won't know the difference on the receiving end of the transmission.

A target can be locked (and missile lock acquired) as long as anyone in your team has line of sight on that target, with or without the teammate locking that target. A teammate cannot share LOS if they're within hostile ECM though. EDIT no comment on sensor range limits and how they affect this, in practice those are not an issue anyway.
At least i've always been able to fire missiles to targets beyond my line of sight and without any teammate having targeted the enemy as long as they see them.
I've seen people fire missiles on targets only i see but haven't targeted/locked them.
Pressing R is not necessary for missiles. It is useful otherwise, sure (as long as there ain't ECM in the game).

Edited by Empyrus, 19 September 2014 - 10:24 AM.

[Lynx7725]

Empyrus, on 19 September 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

A target can be locked (and missile lock acquired) as long as anyone in your team has line of sight on that target, with or without the teammate locking that target.

Then my understanding and your understanding is different. We won't know which is correct, because MWO has piss-poor documentation...

Empyrus, on 19 September 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

EDIT no comment on sensor range limits and how they affect this, in practice those are not an issue anyway.

Sure it does. Canyon, Alpine, Therma, all have distances that are very big. Even Forest is about 2KM max. Knowing where the enemy is allows for team repositioning, which is why you need scouts out beyond the main party's sensor range.

If you're not carrying BAP or Sensor Range module, and you see a target outside of 800m, some friendly scout is doing his job right, and telling the team where the enemy is.

Also, if you ever see a quick flickering of different targets in the same general location, it's someone using the targeting system to quickly flick through enemy targets, either to get data or to warn the team of a push.

Empyrus, on 19 September 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

I've seen people fire missiles on targets only i see but haven't targeted/locked them.

Those targets, are they filled or empty triangles?

Also, the targeting system does automatically locks up a previously unlocked target that you are firing on from time to time, closest to the crosshair. Once it locks up, it'd transmit.

[Sarlic]

The last couple of weeks i am noticing the trend that nobody is willing to pass out information. I am tired ending up in garbage team where scouts or other people dont pass info.

Information is critical and so important.

I always ask them to locate the direwolves or assaults. It's good to know as a assault myself where these guys are.

I just had a match a minute ago describing the same thing above.

Team is jus terribad without any info.

[Empyrus]

Lynx7725, on 19 September 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

Those targets, are they filled or empty triangles?

Also, the targeting system does automatically locks up a previously unlocked target that you are firing on from time to time, closest to the crosshair. Once it locks up, it'd transmit.

Filled, as they have locked them, not me. If i locked a target, it would turn filled, and they would know someone has chosen them as their target.
Filled triangle means "someone targets this". There is no indicator for a mere missile lock on a filled triangle target, only your own, and the missile icon on an enemy/friendly means "missiles (with missile lock) have been fired at this target". There is no way to detect dumb-fired missiles (outside visual detection).

When i say "lock", i mean someone targets someone. Missile lock means exactly that, and requires a locked target.

Edited by Empyrus, 19 September 2014 - 10:42 AM.

[Wolfways]

Lynx7725, on 19 September 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

[/size]
Games Workshop? Are you confusing with Wizkids' "ClickyTech" version?

No, GW released a semi-rp game system for their own WH40k TT game. I think it was called Necromunda, but that was long before they released their Necromunda box set game.
It had a list of all weapons in WH40k and gave their ranges as they would be in a "roleplay" 40k universe, instead of the restricted ranges you get in TT because of table size.
I can't remember the exact numbers but....I.e. a las cannon in TT = 60inches. A las cannon in Necromunda = 1 mile. Something like that.

[Utilyan]

Because the stupid auto-targeting comes on.......we press R and then it UNLOCKS.......

[Satan n stuff]

CapperDeluxe, on 19 September 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:

Lock your own targets, bring your own TAG.


Why?


Because we're putting ourselves at risk every second our faces are exposed to the enemy. Do you really think we're going to risk that for you to maybe shoot and miss? No we're shooting, juking, and trying to make mince meat out of the enemy while avoiding or spreading the damage around ourselves.

You're saying you can't find the time to hit R while you're doing that? That's odd because I've found I always have the perfect opportunity when I'm lining up a shot.

[Lynx7725]

Empyrus, on 19 September 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

Filled, as they have locked them, not me. If i locked a target, it would turn filled, and they would know someone has chosen them as their target.

Before I go on, I just want to be clear -- I'm not arguing with you per se, I honestly do want to understand if my knowledge of the targeting system is wrong. This is so that I can become better at this game.

And I realised I glossed over a particular point, so I'd like to reset, and start from some definitions again.

This is an unlocked target. It's only visible to you. This is not transmitted.
This is a locked and transmitted target. It's visible to everyone in your team. You may not be the person who locked up the target -- the system does not inform you who locked up this target.

Your own locked target is the target with the above filled triangle, and the red square box around it. That's the target that will have target info displayed for you. This is transmitted to everyone in your team. You can only have one of these active at any one time.

LRM boats outside of LOS need someone else to have locked and transmitted the targets before they can begin missile locks.

That's why I was asking about the filled or empty triangle. If they were filled and you have something else targeted, someone else on your team has them targeted, before the LRM boats can begin missile locks. This could be the missile boats themselves if they have moved up into LOS... but they need the filled triangle locks before they can start missile locking.

Perhaps another way to ask is this: Have you ever seen a out-of-LOS LRM boat firing on a empty triangle enemy? Those are visible to you (EDIT: But not to anyone else -- more accurately nobody else has them targeted) and if it is true that only LOS is needed, then LRM boats would be able to missile lock and fire on those empty triangle enemies.

I really can't think of any other way to describe this. If you have a video, I'd like to see it, just to confirm my understanding.

Edited by Lynx7725, 19 September 2014 - 11:13 AM.

[RazorbeastFXK3]

Because they're too busy mashing the buttons that link to firing their weapons.

Cion, on 19 September 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

Why do people not lock targets?

They believe that the opponent has a real bad short term memory problem.

Cion, on 19 September 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

Why do people peek again and again on the same spot where they've been receiving fire?

They want the opponent's AMS to reveal their locations for them and waste their AMS ammo.

Cion, on 19 September 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

Why do people fire lurms that are not hitting anyone?

Mechs don't have rearview mirrors and they have faith that their mates will stop firing when stepping in their line of fire then complain when they don't.

Cion, on 19 September 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

Why do people walk in front of a firing Dire Whale that's your teammate?

Common sense isn't all that common.

Cion, on 19 September 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

Why do people cramp single file and not allow to back up?

True, those were all just guesses on my part. And you have way too much faith and trust in others if you hope that the world will improve with all our forum posts, guides, occasional rage threads and messages pointing out the obvious to the oblivious.

Cion, on 19 September 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

No one knows, we just deal with it and hope that the world will improve with all our forum posts, guides, and occasional rage thread

[Empyrus]

Lynx7725, on 19 September 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

[/size]
Before I go on, I just want to be clear -- I'm not arguing with you per se, I honestly do want to understand if my knowledge of the targeting system is wrong. This is so that I can become better at this game.

And I realised I glossed over a particular point, so I'd like to reset, and start from some definitions again.

This is an unlocked target. It's only visible to you. This is not transmitted.
This is a locked and transmitted target. It's visible to everyone in your team. You may not be the person who locked up the target -- the system does not inform you who locked up this target.
ding.

I have always been under impression that one unfilled triangles are transmitted as well. Pretty sure they used to be transmitted.
Either the are, or there's someone using UAV in my games very, very often.

Did they change this at some point?

[Lynx7725]

Empyrus, on 19 September 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

I have always been under impression that one unfilled triangles are transmitted as well. Pretty sure they used to be transmitted.
Either the are, or there's someone using UAV in my games very, very often.

Did they change this at some point?

Not since I started playing, no.

[Carcass23]

I was chided the other night on Caustic for not hitting R and helping my teammates, even though I constantly keep a lock on when available. I am in the middle of a brawl, my lock disappears behind a ridge and another comes up and suddenly I am a knuckle dragging PUG who refuses to help teammates. Coupled with ECM its sometimes hard to get a freakin lock. That said, I could have jammed ECM with mine, but you know? I guess I got distracted. Stuff does happen.

That said, if you arent keeping locks because you're afraid of kill stealing. You have missed the point of this game entirely.

[Empyrus]

Lynx7725, on 19 September 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

Not since I started playing, no.

Hmm. Perhaps my teams simply have a lot of UAVs or target decay modules (i use neither, can't afford modules)
Ah, well, i have never trusted others to provide targets, i always try to make sure i have LOS on my target.